iPhone app iPad app Android phone app Android tablet app More

Christine Pelosi

Christine Pelosi

Posted: December 20, 2008 06:31 PM

Prop 8 - Instead of Forced Divorce, Why Not Civil Marriages for All?


The news of the Proposition 8 lawsuits came last night as I was addressing my Christmas cards. You know the ritual -- take a photo from the year, mail it to family and friends with holiday greetings. In past cards I've been parasailing, bungee jumping, and skydiving; and now, this year, the biggest "leap" of all -- getting married. My happy if monotonous routine of addressing, stuffing, sealing and stamping was interrupted by news of the latest battles over California's Proposition 8. Now we know that supporters were seeking to affirm the decision to ban same sex marriage, but it wasn't 'til Ken Starr appeared on the TV screen (wearing what appeared to be Jack Abramoff's black hat) that we learned an unsettling truth -- they actually want to go beyond the initiative banning future marriages and forcibly divorce 18,000 couples.

Now being a newlywed myself, I cannot imagine a county or court clerk calling my husband and me to inform us that the state had forcibly divorced us. Yet that's what Proposition 8 proponents now bring to the Supreme Court. Not just upholding a vote taking away "marriage" rights, but undoing a civil contract. So I wonder: instead of forced divorce in California, why not civil unions or civil marriages for all?

Now our Attorney General Jerry Brown fights forced divorce (arguing in part that the initiative was in fact a Constitutional amendment requiring a higher threshold for ballot placement and passage so should be nullified on procedural grounds). And we will be told repeatedly that while Proposition 8 proponents support civil unions for same sex couples, they must force divorce because same sex marriage violates their religious beliefs. That to me sounds like a great argument for rendering civil contract rights unto Caesar and marriage ceremonies unto God. Let loving, consenting adults form civil unions under a common law while clergy perform marriages for some of those couples under the covenants of their faith. Remove the term "marriage' from the civil code entirely, or utilize the term "civil marriage" in the civil code to delineate the rights and responsibilities of the parties to each other and the state . Either way, if this really is not about discrimination, then why not grant heterosexual couples the same rights being proferred for same sex couples?

As your own holiday mail arrives and you see happy loving couples posing in front of Christmas trees or surrounded by snowflakes or lighting menorahs, ask yourself: do you know how or by whom they were married? Does it matter to you that the couple has a civil marriage or a faith marriage? Does your answer change if the couple is gay or straight? In the spirit of the holidays, of peace and goodwill, rather than force divorce on some, why not seek common ground and civil rights for all?

Follow Christine Pelosi on Twitter: www.twitter.com/sfpelosi

The news of the Proposition 8 lawsuits came last night as I was addressing my Christmas cards. You know the ritual -- take a photo from the year, mail it to family and friends with holiday greetings. ...
The news of the Proposition 8 lawsuits came last night as I was addressing my Christmas cards. You know the ritual -- take a photo from the year, mail it to family and friends with holiday greetings. ...
 
 
  • Comments
  • 117
  • Pending Comments
  • 0
  • View FAQ
Comments are closed for this entry
View All
Favorites
Recency  | 
Popularity
Page: 1 2 3 4  Next ›  Last »  (4 total)
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
04:58 PM on 12/22/2008
I said it before and I'll say it again, If you give gay and lesbian's their civil rights, than everyone will want them.
06:50 PM on 01/11/2009
hahah good one!
04:33 PM on 12/22/2008
I've lived in San Francisco for 30 years, & am sorry that we're stuck-on-stupid re: marriage.

Gay kids are killing themselves, GLBT people are beaten up or killed, denied housing, losing jobs...
We need to re-focus, let them have their marriages - w/ 50% divorce rates. IMO they can have the word.
It can be said that marriage encompasses all rights, but we're losing supporters.
It's time to help the kids, the jobless, & keep marriage in perspective.
06:56 PM on 01/11/2009
none of that is mutually exclusive. in fact, by ceding the argument, that gays are 2nd class in citizenship in one area and that is ok, makes it much harder to fight for more rights in another. priority number one in the new congress should be ENDA and hate crimes legistlation, because they are the easier under the current climate, but DADT and DOMA can't be too far behind.
GlennInVenice
Venice; Where Art Meets Crime
03:50 PM on 12/22/2008
Marriage is a civil word and institution. It may also be a religious one but it is a civil one as well. "Marriage" appears throughout the law books in states, the federal government, and in other countries.

Civil union is a relatively new civil word. Unless it is defined to mean marriage, providing someone a civil union does not automatically give them the rights of marriage.

This is particularly true when it comes to issues such as how will the civil union be viewed in other states, in other countries, and by the federal government as the word does not currently exist in the vocabulary upon which their laws were drawn.

To introduce a new word and give it the exact equivilance of a previous word throughout the state, the country, and the world is an exercise in futility bowing to the immaturity of those that cannot see the existing complexity of the meaning of the word marriage.

Add to that, laws such as DOMA that further obscure and minimize the possible impact of civil unions, you now face the real complexity of instituting what at first glance seems like a good solution to the gay marriage situation.

If it helps, it is only civil marriage that gays are asking for. As has always been true, religions are free to practice whatever exclusion, seperation, and sanctions they wish to on whatever group they have decided to single out at the time.
02:44 PM on 12/22/2008
I AGREE COMPLETELY . . . CIVIL MARRIAGES FOR EVERYONE.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
BCubedReg
Everything is possible
01:20 PM on 12/22/2008
Everyone here responding is missing the point. Call it civil unions, civil marriage, marriage.. whatever, the proponents of Prop 8 will continue to fight against gay's legalization of marriage even if you change the name. They do not care if you call it a civil union, they want to abolish the right for gays to enter into a permanent relational contracts (marriage) in any form.

It is not about the legal terminology to them. It is about denying the right or access to marry in any form.

So the fight is a constitutional fight to determine whether marriage is a right for all between 2 consenting adults regardless of gender. Until marriage is defined as a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT FOR ALL, the Prop 8 Proponents will continue to have legal precident to deny it to some (gays).

This fight is no different than any other constitutional assualt on the freedoms of a dissaffected class of people. And this fight will not end just because you change the name to civil unions or civil marriage.
01:50 PM on 12/22/2008
Perhaps, but if it was called "civil union", the proposition would have failed. The government has no business in marriage, period.
02:42 PM on 12/22/2008
I agree. Keep it as a religious ceremony and remove any and all tax benefits for married couples or families. It is not the gummints' job to encourage marriage or families. This is a subject that justifies Jefferson's proposal of a "wall of separation between Church and state" for the protection of the church.
01:57 PM on 12/22/2008
Not true. Nobody is opposing civil unions; they are opposing the redefinition of the term "marriage". As a matter of fact, they are also opposing judicial activism-this was already opposed by the citizens but was made legal by some judicial legerdemain. This is the second time that they have spoken but, once again, the "elites" are seeing fit to thwart the will of the people. Jerry Brown should be removed from office for his treachery, for all of the legal games he has been playing when he knows exactly what the electorate intended. They have now had a vote, twice, with the same outcome. That should settle it. But, as they keep finding votes for Franken (and Gregoire before him), they will keep revisiting this until they get the desired result no matter the means-honest or dishonest.
GlennInVenice
Venice; Where Art Meets Crime
03:59 PM on 12/22/2008
Please, this week the US refused to sign a UN statement in support of basic gay rights. In the last election we saw propositions in other states designed to make gay adoption legal (using the wonderful disguise that it is only un-married people that should be ineligible for adoption). There are those working toward the roll-back of even job protection laws for gays.

To say that nobody is opposing civil unions is laughable.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
EbonBear
opinionated hairy man
04:38 PM on 12/22/2008
If you mentioning "judicial activism", you lose. There is a very good reason your Founders made judges unelected, it was to ensure that they didn't have to follow the will of the majority because the majority is sometimes dead wrong. It was "judicial activism" which legalised interracial marriage over the "will of the people" and "judicial activism" happens all the time. Virtually all of the law relating to murder, the general defences and restrictions on free speech is judge-made law. It is only by exploiting the ignorance of the general public on legal matters that this "judicial activism" nonsense ever got anywhere.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
01:09 PM on 12/22/2008
Gay marrage should be between a man and a man or a women and a women, If God wanted a gay marrage to be between a man and a women than he would have said so.
01:50 PM on 12/22/2008
How does one definitively prove that one is gay?
02:23 PM on 12/22/2008
porn

If porn showing two men having sex gets a man "aroused," he is gay. It doesn't matter if Jesus is in his heart, it doesn't matter if he wants to be straight, it doesn't matter if he is a Wyoming Pastor.

Amusingly, most of the strongest supporters of Prop 8 are gay by that test...
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
klmebane
09:12 PM on 12/22/2008
"How does one definitively prove that one is gay?"

how does one definitively prove that one is straight? the person living the life is the one who has to determine their sexuality. people being denied rights and discriminated against is one reason why people try to deny who they really are.
12:42 PM on 12/22/2008
I think that people are taking for granted that this will be called "Destroying the intitution of marriage" by the religious right and will be opposed as strongly as gay marriage.

Look how strongly they reacted to Party 1 and Party 2. They were outraged that they couldn't say bride and groom.

In the end, they will continue to oppose equality until they are outnumbered by people who support it.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
BCubedReg
Everything is possible
01:27 PM on 12/22/2008
"Destroying the Institution of Marriage" is always the most ridiculous argument the religious right makes.

On the contrary, gays are not destroying the institution of marriage, gays are promoting the institution of marriage, by "GETTING MARRIED".

What the reglious right is advocating is for marriage as "THEY DEFINE IT".

It is time for Americans to stop allowing a certain population group (religious right) dictate the tenets of the American society.
11:00 AM on 12/22/2008
If the state is to void the 18,000+ marriages of same-sex couples who were married during the time that same-sex marriage was declared legal, then ALL MARRIAGES performed during that same period should be voided as well.

That's what EQUAL PROTECTION means, y'all!
01:52 PM on 12/22/2008
Wrong. Marriage has always been understood as an arrangement between men and women. No law has ever forbidden gay people of the opposite sex from marrying each other. Hence, the equal protection clause is not violated.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
EbonBear
opinionated hairy man
04:42 PM on 12/22/2008
"Marriage has always been understood as an arrangement between men and women."

Categorically untrue. There is ample evidence of same-sex unions in ancient society.

And if that is your arguement, we may as well close down all churches except the Mormons. You would still have the right to worship in the Mormon fashion, same as everyone else. There is a reason teh Constitution does not contain the phrase "one size fits all".
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
klmebane
09:16 PM on 12/22/2008
if it is generally accepted that two people who are married love each other in a romantic fashion, then why the hell would two gay people of opposite genders get married? they can't love each other romantically. so the way you want it, straight people can marry who they fall in love with and gay people should just marry for convenience or legal benefits. got it. how about i marry one of your male relatives. and he can be miserable the whole time knowing that i could never care for him the way married people should care for each other. how is that good for marriage?
09:38 AM on 12/22/2008
Well I have'nt read in detail the Prop 8 and I should though I don't live in California. My understanding is that the State legislature is attempting to pass a state law instituting "civil unions" for same sex life-partnerships but within that law they omitted a couple of legal rights afforded traditional opposite sex life-partnerships ?

On that basis alone the Supreme Court should strike it down as unconstitutional. The courts role is not to govern but to rule on existing law upon precedent. I know that sounds conservative but it's not it's just the established role set forth in the U.S. Constitution.

We The People is defined as "we..." vaguely on purpose.

Separation of church and state has nothing to do with the state referring to civil unions completed in a church.

Denying persons of the exact same legal authority and rights as another is unconstitutional. It's not up to the state to "define" the civil union, they have already, they call it a civil union or a contract. We The People call it "Marriage" because "Marriage is defined by Christians" already. The state did'nt do it. We did.

If your going to be an activist at least focus your effort enough so that the rest of the voting citizenry understand what it is you want to say. Either you want a civil union or you want to be called "married" because they are two different things all together and two different places to do it.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SUIGENEROUSLA
12:07 PM on 12/22/2008
You're right Pippen. I live in CA, and am gay and in the DP/Marriage quagmire.

Dosmestic Partnership allows your company to deny health ins benefits if it is self-insured, as mnany larage companies are -- and you live together to have a domestic partnership, sounds ok, right? Except that we live in LA and if my partner gets that job in Silicon Valley we will live in different places legally and not be legally eligable for our DP anymore no matter how long we've been in it. Nice, huh?
01:09 PM on 12/22/2008
While you read Prop 8, make time to read the Establishment Clause; it's in the Constitution. Take note that the phrase "separation of church and state" does not jump out at you. Further, accept that the role of the courts is, yes, to rule on the basis of case law, but within the framework of the Constitution or the state's version. Changing the definition of marriage is huge and is just a step in the agenda. When this gets redefined, what is to stop someone else from demanding the same adjustment? The GLBTs are going to break through that barrier and then help construct a new one behind them? When does it stop? Three or four marrying? marrying our pets? our major appliances? Seriously-how can you then draw a line? The lins call this a scare tactic but the real scare is that they don't want people to think and follow these arguments to a logical conclusion; they want to yell "Hate!" and eliminate any and all discussion.
02:26 PM on 12/22/2008
You know, I learned about this argument in Logic class, it is called the slippery slope fallicy.
09:04 AM on 12/22/2008
"So I wonder: instead of forced divorce in California, why not civil unions or civil marriages for all?"

Exactly right. The state has no business trafficking in anything remotely religious. Leave that to the professional priests.

Civil marriage should be a purely legal contract between any two people. If you want the religious gobble-de-gook, that's your business.

What our gay brothers and sisters want, I think, is acceptance. YOU ALREADY HAVE THAT! At least from the open minded people who matter. The others are worthless dirtbags, and you should just ignore them.
01:00 PM on 12/22/2008
Wrong. They want far more than acceptance. They want more than "tolerance". They want the gay lifestyle taught as equal to the heterosexual lifestyle, they want "celebration" and unquestioning approval. They want the head of anyone that opposes them. They are unyielding and unbudging. one gay activist stated (after CA residents once again voted against gay marriage) that, "This intolerance will not be tolerated". I don't know but those asking for "tolerance" should at least practice some of it themselves, first.
04:39 PM on 12/22/2008
I have never known a gay person who is even remotely fits your description.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SUIGENEROUSLA
09:02 PM on 12/22/2008
As a citizen, I don't care what kids are taught CVN. Just get the h e l l out of my house. I didn't invite you in, I don't want you there, and you don't belong there. I have no desire to know you.

Btw, as a Christian -- I am gay and Christian, surprise! (you are not the only artiber of what Christianity is) -- I you might suggest you look again at what Christ taught about human dignity. I think we all equal and that is the ultimate point.
09:01 AM on 12/22/2008
What about separation of church and state? Civil marriage would solve that for all.

But not to throw a monkey wrench, or putting the cart ahead of the horse, who will be able to perform these civil marriages? People now go to clergy for both - will there need to be two ceremonies if we do this or can we still allow a clergy person to do both? What about those who probably don't want to bless a same sex union? Just thinking.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SUIGENEROUSLA
12:16 PM on 12/22/2008
We already call it "civil marriage". It's the word "marriage" that is the problem -- and the larger problem is that our education system is so bad now that few people grasp the civil nature of civil marriage or indeed civics itself.

Let's call everything a "civil union", which can be preformed by clergy or clerks or justices, etc. -- clergy for the sake of ease. But the clear distinction of the "civil union" and the religious rite of marriage is what is needed to make things clear and it gives the right one less big talking point.

Simple.
02:04 PM on 12/22/2008
One big problem for us religious dimbulbs is that we are being married by God and the minister is just officiating. Hence the phrase, "what God hath joined let no man put asunder". It is not a legal contract but a spiritual contract-this is why the Catholic church does not approve of divorce (despite some very questionable annulments). Let us not go down the road of "If we can't have it then nobody else can either". We all have the same right to marry a person of the opposite sex, none of us can marry our siblings or cousins (I'm not sure what the current law is in West Virginia) and we certainly can't marry multiple persons at the same time. The word means something; when you start monkeying around with the definitions of words they soon cease to have any meaning at all.
01:57 PM on 12/22/2008
Depending on jurisdiction, the legal document known as a marriage certificate can be filed by a clegy member, judge, notary public, justice of the peace, etc. I have no problem with clergy members performing marriages if they meet the civil qualifications that are set up. For example, the clergy member could be a notary. They shouldn't necessarily be allowed to perform marriages JUST based on their clerical status, in my opinion.
02:29 PM on 12/22/2008
Used to be you could send $10 to Mutual of Omaha for the right to perform marriages. They incorperated as a church for tax purposes...
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
BarryS
08:52 AM on 12/22/2008
if straights get "civil unions" then they lose all their federal benefits, and all contracts using the word marriage wouldn't apply [just ask gays in NJ!], . why would they want that? hmmm maybe a good idea. then it will become apparent what this is all about. Before prop 8 there WAS civil marriage. anyone could get married in a civil setting. prop 8 banned civil marriages for gay people.

This nonsense reminds me of a letter to the editor I once read that said: I know how to end the "abortion problem: practice birth control." Duh those against one are against the other that is the real problem. So it is with the "marriage" issue.
08:37 AM on 12/22/2008
This is a great idea.

The state already legislates the terms of religious marriages, and that doesn't seem to impinge on church-state separation. So establishing a civil marriage contract for all, while continuing to recognize and regulate both religious and civl marriages, should work fine.

You want to get married by an institution that doesn't recognize same-sex unions? Fine, go to your favorite religion. You want to get married no matter what your sexual preference? Go to a judge or friendly religious official.
photo
StevenKeirstead
Photographer and Biologist who happens to be gay.
08:06 AM on 12/22/2008
This seem like a complicated legislative proposition. They would have to rewrite THOUSANDS of laws at the federal state and local level, and somehow compel all these jurisdiction to do the same thing. It would be simpler and quicker to simply make CIVIL marriage open to every couple, gay, lesbian and straight.

And you still would have some same sex marriages like mine that would be valid by ex post facto, which would piss off the right wing traditionalists, and all the heterosexual marriages. Only new unions would have the altered status. The difference could result in another sort of possible legal snafu.
02:06 PM on 12/22/2008
No, they would not. Just one law stating that marriage is limited to a man and a woman. There is no need for "thousands of laws". The people voted, twice, and your side did not win. Why can you not accept that? Quit trying to scare people with the lawyer tactics.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
EbonBear
opinionated hairy man
04:47 PM on 12/22/2008
Because the people were wrong. Moreover, human rights should not ever be put to a vote. If interracial marriage had been put to a vote, it would have lost.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
klmebane
10:45 AM on 12/23/2008
"The people voted, twice, and your side did not win. Why can you not accept that?"

if it had been a vote about slavery or segregation would you say the same thing?
07:55 AM on 12/22/2008
All it takes to marry is two people exchanging vows before witnesses. Been that way for thousands of years. Prop 8 doesn't effect anyone's ability to marry. The church has no role in marriage unless invited by bride and groom, to bless the union or officiate.

The State has no role beyond enforcing marriage contracts and spousal rights. Any marriage recognized by the State is a civil union, that's what civil union means. There's no such thing as a State recognized marriage that isn't a civil union. Prop 8 seeks to deny non-hetero marriages the status of civil unions. It has no affect on marriage, though it does affect married couples.

Prop 8 isn't about protecting marriage. It isn't about religion and marriage. It isn't about marriages v. civil unions. It isn't about preventing gay marriage. It isn't about civil rights. It isn't about keeping a nonexistent traditional definition of marriage.

Its about bigotry. Its about discrimination. Its about ignorance and deceit. Its about politicians redefining "civil unions." Its religions redefining "marriage." Its about Gays redefining "civil rights." Its about ignorance and proponents and opponents lying.
12:38 PM on 12/22/2008
Very subtle points made. I am in agreement.

We have "civil unions" in the form of "civil marriage". Why is it so hard for people to realize civil union is just a euphemism?

We also have marriages of all sorts, same-sex and opposite sex in churches and elsewhere.

The conflict is about full and equal recognition of same-sex couples, and anyone is crazy who thinks just changing a word will satisfy the proponents of anti-gay legislation.

That said, I am willing to do away with just about any word, granted we get full and total equality, and protection for our families. We are going at this one step at a time, and this is the step we happen to be at - court challenge. We will see how that goes then move to the next.
03:16 PM on 12/22/2008
Dan-you and I have the same rights and protections under the law. You are agreeing with a poster that stated that this is about "keeping a nonexistent traditional definition of marriage". This is an outright lie; marriage in this sense has meant the union of a man and a woman since recorded time began. Are we going to revise all of history to fit with current PC ideas? I couldn't care less what you do in your home, I don't care what benefits you and your life partner qualify for, even if you are a state or federal employee, I do care when my point of view is being assailed as "hate" when I try to defend my religious beliefs. You are being led around by your nose-this is not anti-gay legislation but pro-marriage legislation. We have every right to protect the institution of marriage from meaning whatever some liberal judicial activist feels that it means on any given day. Given the slow, creeping, insidious nature of the PC crowd and their agenda, they did not expect such a backlash. They have finally gone too far and everyday Americans (even in CA!) are finally saying, "Enough".
07:42 PM on 12/22/2008
The harsh reality is that the so-called "nonexistent" traditional definition of marriage is: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode01/usc_sec_01_00000007----000-.html

Saying it doesn't exist doesn't make it disappear. The fact is, we simply never questioned the definition of marriage until recently, on the grounds of "common sense."