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Clay Farris Naff

Clay Farris Naff

Posted: September 4, 2010 12:02 PM

Stephen Hawking has touched off a Big Bang, and his publishers couldn't be happier. But just like the original Big Bang, Hawking has created an explosion out of nothing.

In his latest book, the famed physicist says, "Because there are laws such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself out of nothing. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going."

Hawking's statement is no big deal. It's not original, it's not certain, and even if true it's no threat to authentic faith.

Hawking may have abandoned the dappled language of his previous utterances for the harsh light of atheism, but there's nothing new in what he says -- not even for himself. Way back in 1988, when he published his first popular book, A Brief History in Time, Hawking held much the same views. He just didn't happen to mention God at the time:


There are something like ten million million million million million million million million million million million million million million (1 with eighty zeroes after it) particles in the region of the universe that we can observe. Where did they all come from? The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle parts. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero.

Hawking was far from the first scientist to declare that it is unnecessary to invoke a supernatural creator to explain the Universe. Way back in 1783 Pierre-Simon LaPlace improved on Newton's gravitation mechanics and eliminated the requirement of an occasional supernatural shove to keep the planets in orbit. Years later, when Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte asked LaPlace why he had not mentioned the Creator in his treatise, the scientist coolly replied, "I had no need of that hypothesis."

Since then, the history of science has been a steady march away from the supernatural. Darwin eliminated the need to invoke a designer to shape life's many variations. Plate tectonics supplanted an angry God as the rational explanation for earthquakes. Genetics rather than Genesis best explains variations in human skin color. And so on.

Those who feel the need to shore up their faith with mysteries in nature stand on an ever-shrinking archipelago of the unexplained. They cling to what is derisively known as God-of-the-Gaps theology. Their island chain is down to three main enigmas: the origin of life, the origin of consciousness, and the origin of the Universe.

Science has all but solved the first question. We may never know exactly how the first chemical replicator got going or how it encased itself in a cell, but the general territory is clearly taped. The spontaneous creation of amino acids, RNA, and lipids have all been demonstrated in the lab. With Nature's ability to perform billions of chemical experiments a day for billions of years, it's no real mystery at all but more of a search through a humongous haystack.

The origin of consciousness remains a knotty problem, but one that is clearly organic. You can alter consciousness with drugs, switch it off with anesthetics, and watch it tragically fade away in Alzheimer's patients. Moreover, every attribute of consciousness, even self-awareness, has been demonstrated to exist in other animals. It hardly cries out for a supernatural explanation.

The third problem is the one Hawking addresses. In line with most cosmological physicists today, Hawking believes that our Universe -- the huge, galaxy-studded bubble we inhabit -- is just one of countless such bubbles that form spontaneously and with random configuration. Since he calculates the sum of positive and negative energy in our Universe to be zero, there is no constraint on the void to produce an infinite number of such bubbles.

Imagine a deck of cards. If you shuffle at random, you could deal out cards all day and never see a royal flush. To see them come out in perfect series order, from low to high, one suit after the other might take more than a lifetime. Yet, if you dealt forever, you'd be guaranteed to see the perfect series order not just once but an infinite number of times. That's the Hawking argument for the world we live in. To call it the Hawking argument is to give him excess credit, however, for many other scientists have made the same assertion.

Is it true? Maybe. It is a reasonable extrapolation from incomplete evidence. However, there may be other explanations that have yet to be explored in a scientific manner. Two things are certain. The evidence clearly shows that the Universe we inhabit is not the handiwork of an omnipotent, perfect Creator. Whatever the true explanation, the traditional interpretation of Genesis makes no sense. There are just too many inefficiencies, extravagances, and plain bad "design" for that to hold. If you're not aware of just how bad an intentional designer would have to be to produce the world we live in, let Neil deGrasse Tyson enlighten you:

The other certainty is this: authentic faith does not depend on traditional creation stories. "Faith" is a vague term, but I suggest it has two essential characteristics: it is a belief that ultimately some good will come of it all, and while its components may be reshaped by evidence it is a belief that transcends the evidence. In short, people who feel that such and such scientific claim must be false or their whole religious belief system will collapse don't really have faith. They have a membership in a particular ideology.

Ideologies come and go. Faith is an enduring characteristic of most human beings. I have, in various essays, suggested ways that faith might be empirically true. I won't reiterate them here. Let me instead close with these thoughts:
* Every single word of what Hawking now says might be true, and yet something wonderful may yet happen.
* Beyond all doubt, God exists -- in the minds of his (or her) followers. Whether God is more than a belief is itself a question of belief, but that belief makes a difference in our world.
* The future is not wholly determined, and to the extent that we control our destiny, our fates depend not on pure reason nor on pure faith, but on just the right intertwining of the two.

 
 
 

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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
cjgnew
10:16 PM on 09/15/2010
This reasoning brought me peace. If this does not help you in any way, by all means feel free to disregard it. Unlike some other people who might want to force their beliefs onto others, I have no desire to do so. I wish you peace, and thank you for your response.
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cjgnew
10:21 PM on 09/15/2010
@Forgive_and_Share

My response was posted under the wrong thread. Please find its URL here. Thank you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/cjgnew/hawking-to-god-your-servi_1_b_705773_60597625.html
11:33 PM on 09/15/2010
(From the other thread)

cjgnew... "The idea that a perfect God would allow his children to destroy one another for real is totally senseless."

But he does, if he exists. He watches and does nothing. And why would he want recognition, praise, worship. Those are evil virtues of vein creatures. Either he enjoys it, or he doesn't exist and some other sinister thing is going on.

PS: Let your kid play with cars. He'll grow to want cars. Let him play with guns. He'll want real ones. You're teaching him. Perhaps you're indoctrinating him too, stifling his freedom with your mental chains. Sad.

___

I didn't disallow communication. Do you have a reasonable explanation?
11:15 PM on 09/14/2010
Nothing has been shown to come from nothing. Hawkings or Science does not suggest that the Universe emerged from nothing. God can't be nothing.

Assuming God exists,
1) Knowledge is organization of energy.
2) Intelligence is energy acting upon organized energy, with outcome of set energy.
3) Power is Energy.
4) God's existence or creations require energy.
5) Einstein shows energy is neither creatable nor destructible.

Is it logical for energy to create un-creatable, indestructible energy?

Energy is shown to evolve it's attributes, but not create itself, nor destroy itself. Big Bang, Universe, time, space, DNA, intelligence, creator, creation? All expressions of energy. We are pure energy.

Hawkings is suggesting that energy in flux in multiple Universes is likely the cause of our Universe and it's expansion.

I suggest that energy is a prerequisite for Intelligent Creation, so a God could not be the first cause.”
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Anne Duchard
10:54 PM on 09/14/2010
The God answer is not going to be found in Physics or Mathematics. Any attempt is futile.
11:28 PM on 09/14/2010
Physics or Mathematics isn't looking for god. It's irrelevant. I agree with the futility of seeking something that is non-existent.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
12:54 AM on 09/15/2010
"I agree with the futility of seeking something that is non-existent." Then stop spending our money looking for the gravity wave. An article in Scientific American stated that gravity isn't even real but rather some sort of artifact of thermodynamics (entropy). As physics gets more bizarre every day, the concept of god is starting to look positively sane even to a theophobic like me.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Anne Duchard
09:49 PM on 09/14/2010
Well Dr Degrass did present a very very violent universe, yet how come this little silly planet in the dark corner of the universe where there is a specie called Homosapien, so hard to deal with, destroying most things in their path, how come this silly little planet has not gone through a dark hole or collide with some of these asteroids? could it be that there is a beloved intelligence watching out for this silly little planet. The last I heard, Jupiter was bombarded by asteroids recently to the point that one of its rings seem not quite normal. How come this silly little planet allowed existence, I would love to hear De Grass give the answer to that. Better, how come one the black holes that he lectured about have not swallowes us like spaghetti? or a super nova heading our way? 2012 anyone???
11:37 PM on 09/14/2010
If you are suggesting that some silly little god has something to do with it, who am I to argue.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
12:49 AM on 09/15/2010
Some silly little god. Oh you must mean gravity per Hawking's gospel.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Anne Duchard
12:59 AM on 09/15/2010
There is a reason why religions exist and that is to prepare man for an after life. It is something based on old mystery schools... Religions used their power to control indeed and abuse that power deviating from their purpose but the basic goodness of religion is/was to give people the opportunity to shape their spirit prior to death. Research done on Near Death Experience have come up with many interesting findings that led to believe there is consciousness after death. People who are involved in psychic research are finding out important data that point to consciousness after death. Therefore, when we eject from the body apparently we become our thoughts, our emotions and our energy. Apparently we find ourselves in situation that we create with our mind/thoughts according to our belief system. If the mind believes in an abyss of nothingness this is where the person with that belief may find himself or herself...it is all about thought, energy and creating your own reality once you shed the body. There is more to it but it can be researched. There is a good movie by Robin Williams As Dreams May Come that is very close to what I just explained. The writer of this movie has done his research.

Now I am getting ready to be assaulted by all the non believers on this site.
05:02 PM on 09/21/2010
> how come this silly little planet has not gone through a dark hole or collide with some of these asteroids?
There's a bit of a sampling bias here: you wouldn't be writing these questions if earth and/or humanity was already destroyed by a cosmological event. See, for example, this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

On a related note, there are a number of near-earth asteroids orbiting the solar system, and there's good evidence that some very large ones have collided with the earth in the distant path. Objectively speaking, that such impacts are infrequent, even in geological time, means only that... they are infrequent.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Anne Duchard
09:40 PM on 09/14/2010
It is amazing how limited knowledge can be when one is only looking at one source to explain phenomena or disprove or prove the existence of a God or is it the GODS. I wonder who is going to have the last laugh...
11:32 PM on 09/14/2010
One doesn't prove a negative. Neither does that make it a positive. How about some good philosophical reasoning that is germane to the article.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
12:47 AM on 09/15/2010
The old you can't prove a negative ploy to try to get off the hook, set up a double standard and avoid the real issue.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Anne Duchard
09:35 PM on 09/14/2010
This author talks about Genesis as having some many glitches and apparently left to interpretation. I have found it most peculiar that scientists selected to leave out comparative studies of ancient mythology to come out with a more solid explanation. Why on earth have they left out Ancient Mesopotamia where apparently a lot of the glitches in Genesis might have been explained? This type of conversation could have been put to rest.
11:34 PM on 09/14/2010
Since you seem to know, then why don't you explain it?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Anne Duchard
12:28 AM on 09/15/2010
It is not for me to explain as it is not my generalized conclusion. I would be repeating after someody whose work resonates with me. I said enough that if you are interested you can pursue more research. Now if you ask me which area I am referencing to I will tell you and even suggest books. The thing is the answer is really multifaceted...it requires the search in more then one area, some of it is even hidden knowledge but not so hidden you just have to know where to look
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
12:56 AM on 09/15/2010
Don't do it Anne. The request is not genuine. It is the old bait, trap and ridicule ploy.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Anne Duchard
01:52 AM on 09/15/2010
I think I just made their day with my above comment about religions and consciousness. I just hope they remember this little post when they find themselves in nothingness, in the abyss of darkness, hopefully they will remember that all they have to do is change their thoughts to create a new reality. If one of them exit the abyss of darkness to go in the light after death because of remembering this little post, then they can make fun of me for now...it is ok. Christ did it for them already in a much more terrible way.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
rascalofearth
03:50 PM on 09/14/2010
here's why your response is stupid. people are arguing that god has provided real things...a book, gold plates, etc that exist in our world. they are arguing that god is a real being that the books are actual words sent by him. if everyone believed in faith and not their god we would be fine. but the reality is people, here in the us, are demanding laws and society conform to words they believe were actually written by their god. in grand rapids mi the kent county commissioners are demanding abortion services be removed from a union health care plan. that is not an article of faith, that is people insisting their faith is not faith but a fact and then using this certitude to intrude upon the liberty of their neighbors.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
09:11 PM on 09/14/2010
Well elect some progressive people then.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Anne Duchard
09:37 PM on 09/14/2010
good evening Whirlpool,
Are you familiar with Ancient Babylonian Mythology?
10:40 AM on 09/12/2010
God is not an essential part of creation. That's all Hawking said. He made no declaration as to the existence, or non-existence, of God. While many are opting to interpret this as fuelling the fires of Atheism, it is no such thing. Purely and simply it is showing that invoking God as the source of material creation is unnecessary and unscientific. Whether you believe in God or not is a matter for you to resolve yourself, but citation of creation is no longer viable.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
martykz
06:14 PM on 09/11/2010
Love the believer
Hate the belief
10:01 AM on 09/11/2010
Hawking has presented a belief statement on the absence of a God. The origin of belief is to wish or desire something as true. No proof is needed in a belief statement and in Hawking's announcement, no proof is given. Instead, he has shown us that he has no "complete theory," only that he does not know and is therefor an unknowing Agnostic.

As academic research, Hawking has made a claim about the the absence of a God and the universe but has failed to justify his claim with specific evidence.

In referencing Physics, he cites the laws of gravity as proof for an absence of a God. His premise is problematic in that he does not prove how or why God is or is not related to gravity.
(continued)
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
rascalofearth
03:53 PM on 09/14/2010
and yet people 'of faith' by the millions demand respect and obedience to their belief without a shred of evidence. in fact in the us where christian fascism is on the rise even a muslim is more acceptable than a non believer. even as i write this post the spell checker is trying to get me to submit.
09:36 AM on 09/16/2010
No he didn't. He made no claim to the existence of God. He merely stated that God is not necessary for the creation of matter, which he is not. He makes no mention of whether or not God exists.
10:01 AM on 09/11/2010
Continued:
He claims that math is the method of his proof but fails to demonstrate his proof through the utilization of mathematical deductive reasoning. Reiterating, Hawking fails to demonstrate a math proof to us that shows us that his hypothesis is true in all cases... and that is the very definition of a proof.

What he does do is truncate ( and take out of context) the ideas and work of others, such as Einstein and Aristotle, in a failed attempt to prove his own beliefs.

His research is therefore akin to qualitative and not quantitative. But even as qualitative research, he falls short in the absence of correctly cited case studies. Instead, he simply references disciplines outside of Physics and Mathematics, such as Philosophy and Sociology and goes on to denigrate these disciplines with wipe sweeping and unsupported claims: In claiming that Philosophy is intuitive and anthropomorphism (sociology) is belief based, he leaves only dangling comments that are unfettered to own his belief based argument.

Ultimately, his claim is not research, nor is it science...its just another faith.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
martykz
06:17 PM on 09/11/2010
Prove to me that there is not a big white bear standing behind you.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Michael Marks
10:09 PM on 09/11/2010
He doesn't need to. Its self evident that one is standing behind him. In a multiverse some version of a big white bear, a leprechaun AND a unicorn is in fact a this time standing right behind him Now you prove that in a multiverse with all kinds of potentials that God doesn't exist in one of them. that is - why a multiverse specifically just excludes the properties of God because you say so.
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01:33 AM on 09/13/2010
David, yours is a well considered post obviously it's not a first impression but something you have thought about. The problem with the internet is that your critique may reach thousands or it may reach one guy who apparently misremembers an example about not being able to prove a negative. Therefore fanned and faved.
11:17 AM on 09/09/2010
In a prior post addressing el sistema I expressed my belief in God and made a brief prayer for him. He responded by saying, “Prayer or asking of God cannot be construed as evidence or anything else that is subjective to the person.”

He also said, "You can illicit a response from praying to God with three different outcomes:" 1. I change my views and now I know God. 2. It took several years but now I know God. 3. Nothing happens, I still do not believe in God.

This is not an atheistic point of view! None of these outcomes are possible if God does not exist. This is a satanic perspective where, because of pride, emphases is placed on oneself. On what “I will” rather than “God’s will”:

Isaiah 14: (13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: (14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Which of us did you say was “ignoring the reality of the outcome?”
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
rascalofearth
04:18 PM on 09/14/2010
don't quote a book written by some dude in a cave as evidence. its is just an old book mainly used to control liberty.
09:30 AM on 09/09/2010
You missed the entire point that Hawkins made. Energy and matter are not created. They are transitioned from one to another. The formula E=MC squared does not have a variable in it for a supernatural element. This shows a balance between matter and energy. You still posit the prime mover position that some presence had to create the entire arena in which this balance takes place. The Hawking position would be that this balance always has existed (eternal). That would mean that there never was a void in which a supernatural power was required to intervene to create the environment for this balance to start. An eternal movement and balance within the particle/anti particle ballet, maybe hard to believe. This is merely his conjecture. It is no harder to believe that, than to believe that there is a higher power outside of our experience that started this structure. He does not see the need to personify and external source to explain our surroundings. He was merely making the point that the "prime Mover" theory is not required to explain the cosmos.
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Michael Marks
10:34 AM on 09/09/2010
sorry kevinw. You are the one that missed the point. "the ability to transition from one to another" is dependent on Quantum law hence hawkings states that the only thing that is necessary is law - a law that has no cause, is self existent and has the ability to create multiple universes. you can swim dance or do the jig you still have a prime mover only with you it lacks intelligence. You are merely renaming it. So the point stands -

Its not the self existent concept , or the causelessness or even the ability for an entity (call it law if you wish) to create out of nothing infinitely that bothers your side or that you define as supernatural. its merely the concept of intelligence that rattles you to. its an illogical base to conclude supernatural on given all the other things your side is willing to swallow and defend even as Penrose states on the the basis of a theory (in the case of M-theory) that has no observational data at all. The scientific method matters little and that fact is now in the open.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Michael Marks
09:25 PM on 09/08/2010
I've had a few days to think about this and "sound the depth" of people opinions on this. Here is what I have gathered as i wind down my debate on this.

It seems it is perfectly acceptable and scientific to propose that the universe is created out of nothing by a self existent causeless law that has infinite ability and creativity to span countless universes up to and only up to the point that such a law has no intelligence.

The mere interpretation of intelligence in a law renders the otherwise identical premise as being unscientific and supernatural. this stands as a priori to almost every atheist I have conversed with. When this is put together with Penrose's fair observation that M-theory (which Hawkings bases at least part of his premise on) has no observational data as of yet the rational becomes extremely clear

A large segment of alleged supporter of science have no qualms with any premise or even with a premises's lack of observational data. The sole criteria for claiming a thing supernatural and unscientific is how that premise stands in regard to intelligence.

By any rational construct such a priori is illogical and biased.. The dismissal of the restraints that the scientific method should place on conclusions now clearly indicate that the side that has been trumpeting the scientific method is more than willing to abandon it at will. The dialogue will and needs to change to one of honesty.
09:45 AM on 09/09/2010
Where you make your logic error is that Hawkins stated that a "prime Mover" type God element is not required to explain the Cosmos due to the observations around gravity and energy/matter conservation. He did not say that from an A priori construct there was no God. The point made was that this supernatural construct is not needed to explain the Cosmos. The principal of conservation of mass and energy lends to the idea that nothing is every really created or destroyed., merely converted. Does this mean we have proof there is no God, no. Does this mean that the concept of a "Prime Mover" is no longer required to explain existence, Yes.

When the belief system that holds that an entity which is supernatural, or beyond our ability to detect or monitor, was required to set up and start the universe, you should not complain about other peoples arguments being A priori. Belief if you choose and don't worry about the scientists.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Michael Marks
11:01 AM on 09/09/2010
Where you make your error of logic is that I never stated that the Priori was on the basis of hawkings. learn to read better. I said specifically that it was my discussions with atheists defending the position that I drew those conclusions and you have confirmed it. Your definition of a supernatural construct is as biased as I stated. Observe

is the initial law that created out of nothing as hawkins posits causeless? If you think for a moment it has to be unless you want infinite regression. Is it self existent? necessarily follows. Is it incredibly creative? why yes with almost infinite universes.

Is the concept of God causeless? definitely, does it claim self existence? Yes. is it a concept creative? why yes a minimum of two universes.

subtract one position form the other and all they don't have in common is intelligence. Its merely on the basis of intelligence that you differentiate supernatural in the construct which is a distortion of the meaning of the word. Its a bias that is now laid bare.

You have built in prime movers in the form of law to create your conversion- you've merely trojan horsed them into your ex nihlo by law, its a word game is all. A psychological thin ploy. the primemover or initial cause is the self existent causeless law. Its illogical and unscientific particularly in this case with little to no observational data.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Dan Jighter
02:06 PM on 09/09/2010
"It seems it is perfectly acceptable and scientific to propose that the universe is created out of nothing by a self existent causeless law that has infinite ability and creativity to span countless universes up to and only up to the point that such a law has no intelligence."

Um, that seems to be an unfair presentation of the situation. In fact, that seems to be YOUR description of the situation and as such this is a straw man. In particular, I don't think anyone has nor would say that law was "creative". To argue against the absurdity of a law of physics being creative without an intelligence behind it is pure straw man. Sorry, the law is not "creative".

Note that a natural law can give the appearance of creativity without a intelligence. Consider evolution via natural selection, from which a rich diversity of apparently creatively designed life arose. Well, there was no creativity behind it, just a dumb law of biology. The law behind the creation of the universe is similarly dumb and uncreative.
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Michael Marks
03:13 PM on 09/09/2010
Dan get a grip. the reference to creative there is in application to actually creating something in this case unlimited universes. You have no point and the straw is yours. I have already conceded that your side does not embrace intelligence and was no way implying creativity in that sense but to actually creating universes. However your claim that law is dumb is just rhetoric and begging the question you have no evidence to support it and there are elements to quantum mechanics that suggest the universe is highly attuned to intelligent observation and measurement.
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raker
03:21 PM on 09/08/2010
The world the writer lives in is perfect, like a deck of cards all in order? Hmm. The world I know is messy and random and chaotic and dangerous, along with all the good stuff. That's how faith was born, created by people who couldn't wrap their minds around all the disarray.

Religious people overlay their faith on the physical world and argue that the order and sense they've contrived to explain things is proof that there is a god who created the whole thing. I believe that's called begging the question, a logical fallacy in which a claim is assumed to be true without evidence other than the statement or claim itself.