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Cliff Schecter

Cliff Schecter

Posted: April 19, 2010 03:31 PM

Dispatch From Guntopia

What's Your Reaction:

This morning, on the 15th Anniversary of the Oklahoma City mass murder, I drove from Washington, D.C. across the 14th Street Bridge to get on the George Washington Memorial Parkway and attended an "open carry" gun rally at Fort Hunt, Virginia.

On my way, I passed the Holocaust Museum, where a deluded Neo-Nazi, in a final act of vengeance for having been born, chose to spray bullets into the flesh and bone of a security guard whose only crime was trying to earn a paycheck. Off in the distance, you could almost see the Pentagon, where John Patrick Bedell wreaked havoc after being declared mentally unfit to possess a firearm by the state of California -- because he simply bought one with no questions asked at a Nevada gun show. Bedell took advantage of the gun-show loophole to shoot those serving our country at the Pentagon, because of his hatred for it.

Finally, we arrived at Fort Hunt, to see a bevy of mostly middle-aged white men compare the United States of America to Nazi Germany, the Ku Klux Klan and a slave-state (among other niceties) while carrying assault weapons and dressing like they were auditioning for the remake of Red Dawn. A highlighted speaker was Mike Vanderboegh (seen in the video just below), an Alabama militia leader who most infamously encouraged his followers to throw bricks through the windows of local Democratic Parties.

In a very different reality, Tom Mauser, whose son was gunned down in the Columbine massacre, and families of those murdered at Virginia Tech, today called on our leaders to lead on an issue where 86% of gun owners (including 69% of NRA members) agree with the rest of us, according to known liberal Frank Luntz: That we MUST close the gun show loophole. We must do more to stop criminals, terrorists and the mentally unfit from getting their hands on weapons that kill.

To protesters at the Fort Hunt rally, the federal government, a health care bill and their personal interpretation of the Constitution are reasons for everyone to be armed and ready to do battle (although, interestingly, during the Bush Administration's assault on the Constitution with the Patriot Act, warrantless wiretapping, turning Gitmo into, well, Gitmo, rendition, etc., we didn't hear much from this crowd). Losing an election is just another justification for political violence.

To the victims of gun violence, who realize we aren't living in some Wyatt Earp fantasy land, perhaps getting guns out of the hands of those who fetishize violence and commit crimes and terrorist acts is just a tad bit more important. This likely includes some of those paranoid souls listening to the speakers at the Fort Hunt rally, perhaps planning to be the next one to shoot someone at the Pentagon or fly an airplane into an IRS building.

Which world do you live in on the 15th anniversary of an American tragedy? And which one do you want to live in?

Disclosure: I consulted for the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence (CSGV) on this project

 

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02:42 PM on 04/20/2010
Wyatt Earp fantasy? Earp did not allow you to carry in his towns.
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and combat vet
09:02 PM on 04/20/2010
Appllied to out of towners, certain parts of town, and during certain times of the year. And did not last very long.
12:35 PM on 04/21/2010
OE--IIRC--Earp primarily disarmed the cowboys while they were in town partying very hearty--and it is probably a good idea to keep drunk males that are late teens/early 20s away from firearms after a couple of months contemplating bovine buttocks
01:32 PM on 04/20/2010
Sensible gun owners, real patriots and true supporters of the Constitution would not have attended this clusterf*** BS.
02:59 AM on 04/21/2010
So you can see inside the mind of every attendee to divine real intentions? And only your definition of "sensible", "real" and "true" is valid?

Sounds like ignorant stereotyping to me.
12:36 PM on 04/21/2010
AC--ignorant stereotyping is the best the hoplophobic gunbanners have
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
den1953
The best politicians are for free!
12:18 PM on 04/20/2010
I have several guns i hunt target shoot and i have a few hand guns for protection, i don't need to show them off, i certainly don't have to announce what party i belong to , so what the hell are the right wing gun lovers screaming about. I have my guns since i was 16 years old and no one in the government took them away and i don't anticipating it in the future.
11:49 AM on 04/20/2010
I'm most definitely not one of those gun-totin' don't-tread-on-me-or-I-might-bite-you venom-spitting tea partiers.

But I do have a few guns, and enjoy using them occasionally. I also do feel a certain degree of comfort, especially when I am alone for a few days, that they are there, and should I need to, I do know how to use a couple of them. In the dark. By "feel" alone.

And, somehow, sometimes, I have to think at least some those prone to commit crime have some sort of intuitive sense (if not conscious, cognitive reasoning based on actual information) of who's likely to defend themselves with firearms and who's probably not. It might just be the way somebody who shoots walks, or stands, or interacts with neighbors. (Sad thing is, often criminals are people you know, or who know you at least to some degree)

So, how many home invasions, rapes, even worse, are thwarted before they even happen, by the presence of guns in the home and residents' proficient use of them?

I think it might be hard to tease that out, and certainly, public crime stats do not dig this deep.

For a slightly built , rather gentle person of a gender with a deep history of subjugation and abuse by those more physically powerful and biologically much more prone to aggression, guns are to some degree, an "equalizer".
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Pilatunes
Best described as miscellaneous
01:36 PM on 04/20/2010
I certainly don't have any sympathy for the people at that rally, whose main complaint is really that there guy didn't win the election.

However, I am sympathetic to your perspective. Violent crimes against women in their own homes by strangers are rare; but that is cold comfort to those rare victims. It would depend on where I live to some extent but if I were a single woman, particularly one of small stature living alone, I would be sorely tempted to own a firearm at least for home defense.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
science teacher
01:41 PM on 04/20/2010
I used to think that having a firearm would make me safer but my own research into this area told me something different.

First, I spoke with some policemen in my reserve unit about the legalities of having a weapon of deadly force.

It turns out, that it is too easy for a civilian to get into trouble using a weapon in a deadly force situation.

I also found out that burglar alarms and lights are a more effect deterrent to a criminal than a firearm.

I also found out that having a weapon is a bit of a rush but it didn't make me any safer.

I came to the conclusion that it is a really bad idea for the average person to possess a firearm with the intent of using it for personal defense.

The average citizen simply doesn't have the training or understanding to use such a weapon in a deadly force situation.

As a former marine sergeant, I'm against private citizen ownership of non-sporting weapons (no 30 round banana clips to hunt deer) and handguns unless you have gone through extensive training.

Weekends with the wannbe militia doesn't count.

And remember, weapons of deadly force are just that.

When used properly, someone winds up dead.

It's not a casual act.

There are legal and moral consequences.
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Pilatunes
Best described as miscellaneous
02:23 PM on 04/20/2010
Hmph, interesting. I think having a gun for self-defense has a tangible aspect to it, i.e., you can hold the gun, and a certain visceral appeal as well. Passive measures are just that. I am not disagreeing with you at all, but it commonly presents a conflict between the left and right brain.

Funny really when I look at gun-oriented websites and magazines there are innumerable articles on what weapons to carry when you are out in the woods for defense against predators. Those articles are ridiculous...I used to do a lot of backwoods camping, going as far as possible off the beaten path. I've seen more black bear (probably the most common predator in North America capable of taking a human) than I can count and never once have been in peril as a result. I never felt the need to be armed.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
itschuck2c
08:46 PM on 04/20/2010
Hmmm clip?? Someone's DI is now about to blow a cork at that term, its a magazine. As a marine sergeant you should know better..
11:46 AM on 04/20/2010
facts are a buger:
http://newsbusters.org/node/9140
These are FBI facts. But these facts are more complex than just RTC (Right-to-carry) or non-RTC. The statistics speak to a culture of independence vs. dependence on an intrusive government. Crime is higher in populated areas that have more entitlements, corruption, and a culture that says "We are owed a happy life." It's not just the 2nd Amendment that is at stake. The 2nd amendment is merely a barometer as to the general intention of the Federal Government. It is so very easy to say that banning guns will lead to less crime. But the facts don't back that hypothesis. On the flip allowing RTC laws alone also does not mean your city is safe. But the RTC states are in general a part of the culture where individual liberty and fewer entitlements are built into the fabric of society. Crime is less prolific in these regions because fewer people believe they are justified in their crimes. They are not entitled happiness, they have to work for it.
01:00 PM on 04/20/2010
Don't you dare give them FACTS... they want EMOTION!

Do it for the CHILDREN!!!
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
science teacher
01:52 PM on 04/20/2010
Please check your statistics again.

The crime rate per 1000 is pretty evenly distributed across the country.

Cities have more crime because they have more people.

I've also lived in rural areas and they have their problems too.

I would frame the second amendment supporter/limiter debate a little bit differently.

I see too many second amendment advocates as being divorced from the reality of modern life.

They imagine having personal weapons will make government more responsive to the citizen and they will also become safer in the bargain.

I see the limitation of the second amendment (to be used as a collective right, militia of the people, etc.) as something that makes society safer since it limits the use of firearms and also sends out the message that firearms are not fashion accessories.

Plus, I'm a little bit bothered by the fact that "guns" are seen as just something else to sell by a lot of people.

Let's take the profit motive out of the "gun" industry.

I feel that a lot of the advocates of second amendment rights are just "gun" sales people looking to expand their markets in the pursuit of a fast buck.

They're no better than pushers.
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03:08 PM on 04/20/2010
science teacher wrote: "The crime rate per 1000 is pretty evenly distributed across the country."

Incorrect. The per capita crime rate is significantly higher in urban areas than in rural areas. This is caused by a variety of factors which give rise to higher drug use, the development of gangs, and similar circumstances.

science teacher wrote: "I see the limitation of the second amendment (to be used as a collective right, militia of the people, etc.) as something that makes society safer since it limits the use of firearms and also sends out the message that firearms are not fashion accessories."

The 2nd is an individual right which, among other things, serves a collective purpose. It does not limit the use of firearms nor does it prohibit firearms from being used as a fashion accessory. Certainly some useage of firearms are subject to regulation, but that is not because the 2nd mandates such prohibitions, it merely means that the 2nd does not prohibit them.
09:30 AM on 04/29/2010
Science teacher, you need to read "More guns, Less Crime" by John Lott.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/

So what is your plan if someone attacks you, at home or away, intent on say, raping your wife? Are you going to reason with them? Are you going to quote statistics? Have you spent years learning martial arts and hope that will save you? Did you take a 2-day self-defense seminar and now you have a false sense of security?

You'll call 911, right? By the time the police get there, you'll be dead and your wife will be violated, at best. So your plan is to call the police and HOPE they'll get there in time. Good luck with that.

Or you could assume responsibility for your own protection, instead of sheepishly relying on someone else to do it for you.
11:33 AM on 04/20/2010
No. You won't hear much self-criticism from this crowd when a Republican Administration is in power.

Bush/Cheney could have pushed a ban on high-powered deer rifles and BB guns and those who fill the ranks of today's Tea Partiers and Government-Haters would have been conspicuous by their silence. It would have just been a sound measure to ensure "law and order" and/or fight terrorism.

In fact, a recent national poll exposed this very phenomenon, that regarding their attitude toward government, Republican voters are far less fact-based than are Democrats.

80-something percent of Americans currently say they do not trust "government". Predictably more Republicans than Democrats fall into this category.

However, the same poll showed that during a Republican Administration, Republican level of trust in government sharply rises, while during a Democratic Administration, the level of Republican trust in government plummets.

It also showed that during a Republican Administration, the level of Democratic voter distrust in government remains about the same.

So, Democrats give Republicans a lot more slack than Republicans give Democrats. Regardless of the facts!

As if we all didn't know Republican ideology is fantasy-based and there is no such thing as a "compassionate conservative".

Now the proof is in.
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01:40 AM on 04/24/2010
Wow. That post took up a LOT of room without containing a single verifiable fact.
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ConsciousChristian
Right follow me and I'll follow you
03:36 AM on 04/24/2010
I have been reading through these comments because I enjoy target shooting with my husband. I started reading her last post and was thinking the same as you. Where did all of that come from?
10:41 AM on 04/24/2010
The partisan dissastifaction with government dichotomy I mentioned above was from a poll done by the Pew Charitable Trust, and commented on in a recent NPR story, from which the following is excerpted:

...> Kohut agrees that the current deficit of trust is due to a lot of factors.

"Trust in government declines when national conditions are bad," he says. "National conditions are bad; the economy is bad. So that's one factor. [The second] factor is that when there's a Democratic president, Republicans become much more mistrusting of government than do Democrats when there is a Republican president." <

Of course, the Pew Charitable Trust could have made it all up.

Go back to eating your critters, Critters.
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lesterbud
Facts ARE Liberty
11:08 AM on 04/20/2010
For about 40 years I have spent part of nearly every summer camping in my favorite National Parks.
I will never pitch a tent in them again.
What used to be a 100% reliably peaceful and low-stress get away, has now become a scary, tense and unpleasant experience.
At Yosemite last summer, the folks in the motor home just down from our site told us they brought their guns (stressed plural) with them, and took them while hiking the trails. I asked why, they told me that one - they could, two - it's a dangerous world and there are gangs (stressed minorities) infiltrating the parks, and three - they were Americans and Americans can carry guns as God wrote in the 2nd Amendment (yes, he said God). He said there were others like them in the park - they were easy to spot. He thought I should feel safer because they and their friends were on patrol.
Two days later we headed back home to relax.
Probably my last overnight visit.
Sad.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
07:30 PM on 04/20/2010
how many of you have been present when a crime was committed? arguing to the 4 winds that the solution to crime is to be armed and use your gun is dangerous. things happen so fast that to be effective you have to analyze the situation in an instant and act decisively. i dont really trust the judgment of each and every tom dick and harry who can obtain a gun to act appropriately and without some bias.
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lesterbud
Facts ARE Liberty
08:59 AM on 04/21/2010
100% agreed.
These folks claimed they had always brought guns with them when they camped at state (in LA area) and national parks - it is just now that they can tell everyone and "keep the peace". And yes, the entire family considered themselves to be "on patrol" - looking for opportunities to use their guns.
Not quite sure what training they had to discern what constituted an "opportunity", or how their suspicion of minorities would factor in, they just gave me the creeps and made me wish for days when I could look at fellow campers and hikers without trying to figure out which ones were "on patrol".
10:18 AM on 04/20/2010
I advocate an open-carry approach to gun-toting.

In fact, it should be illegal to pack concealed heat.

I mean, if some wingnut is packing heat, I want to know who it is - where the deadly threat lies, so I can get the hell away from them.

Anyone packing hidden heat should be considered nefarious and dangerous, and should be immediately arrested. What are they trying to do? It can't be good for ME!

At least you know whom to avoid like the plague, if they have a six gun hanging from their belt!

Hey! If toting guns is such a great idea, there needs to be an open gun-toting rule in the Supreme Court gallery! And Congress! The White House! It's our right, right???

We are pathetic.
10:38 AM on 04/20/2010
And all of the criminals would follow the law and dutifully carry out in the open. Yup. That's why they're called criminals, because of their law-abiding natures. Yup.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
moonflowerjewelry
Buy American made, no excuses.
10:08 AM on 04/20/2010
Guns in the home are more often used in suicides and domestic disputes or turned against the owner than used to prevent a crime. My brother is a gun owner and collector and he is responsible, very responsible. In our local high schools and junior highs it is far and away easier to buy a gun than a can of beer. It's all relative. I won't have guns in my home, and I am not comforted that my neighbor might own an assault weapon.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
pyro
Fire in the kilns, lets fill all empty bowls.
10:29 AM on 04/20/2010
Guns in the home are more often used in suicides and domestic disputes or turned against the owner than used to prevent a crime

That is a lie. A Brady bunch bald faced lie. Guns in the home are a million times more likely to just sit there, or be taken on a hunt or to a range than those other two disasters. Go to GOA website and look it up.
10:52 AM on 04/20/2010
funny...her statement was comparing the use of guns in suicides and domestic disputes as compared against actually using them to prevent crime.

However, you then said that was a lie and proceeded to bring up hunting????

How about comparing the use of guns in domestic violence and suicide against the use of guns (in civilian hands) for crime prevention......Or, does that actually support her point?
dmac
I'll explain later.
11:09 AM on 04/20/2010
No, that isn't a lie. And you either intentionally misrepresented the words or you simply didn't understand them.

What was said was guns in the home are MORE OFTEN used in suicides and domestic disputes or turned against the owner THAN USED TO PREVENT A CRIME. See, those are two of the things that can happen with guns. Other things are: locked away and used solely for hunting, sitting on top of a cupboard doing nothing, hung above a bar for decor, taken to the gun range to target shoot for sport, or even used in the commission of a crime, for that matter.

But of the two things cited, there is less chance of their being used for crime prevention than for the domestic tragedies listed.

Your sophomoric Brady Bunch reference gives some indication as to why you wrote what you did.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
10:31 AM on 04/20/2010
"In our local high schools and junior highs it is far and away easier to buy a gun than a can of beer."
WOW..Where do you live?
10:51 AM on 04/20/2010
I think it might be an imaginary place.
11:54 AM on 04/20/2010
"WOW..Where do you live?"

Hahahah... GUNTOPIA, of course! I'm still trying to find out where that is so I can visit someday and "pack heat." LOL

I love it when the lies become so ridiculous, and yet they still get repeated. And the Brady stats, OMG.

When are you guys going to close the "loophole" that lets all those Mexican gangs buy hand grenades "at Arizona gunshows." LOL

(BTW that is another faked stat of the left that came from the inflammatory BATFE statement "98% or TRACEABLE weapons recovered from the Cartels are bought across the border in the US"

How on earth would a full auto, military Chinese AK smuggled in through Guatemala be "traceable?"

Yet it gets repeated every day like it's the truth.

The anti-rights crowd doesn't waste their breath on the truth.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Greg0658
10:02 AM on 04/20/2010
good discussion folks ... I like the weekend comment by Bill Clinton words matter and we need progress without blowing things up ... the posts pointing out highly engineered weapons of flight and energy waves - good point to remember about a bullet against them - years ago the weapons race gave rise to a takeover of this new world ... the posts pointing out registration as a means to an end - good point in a distrustful world of 'isms ... trade'g guns like used cars or a dine'g room table - umm
09:55 AM on 04/20/2010
The right wing gun loving culture is so strong that through political force of will they have made a distorted view of the second amendment the prevailing view despite how absurd it is. Right wing justices have reinforced this ridiculous interpretation and liberals have completely given up trying to argue the intelligent point of view.
10:52 AM on 04/20/2010
The absurdity is in fearing law-abiding gun owners, and buying into this narrative that there is a vast right-wing insurrection about to happen. No evidence supports either one.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Proud Progressive
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness
12:20 PM on 04/20/2010
Really? No Evidence????
Open carry at political events attended by the future POTUS?
Open carry "as close to Washington as we can"
"The next time we will be armed"
Any of this seem vaguely familiar??
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
den1953
The best politicians are for free!
08:54 AM on 04/20/2010
You know for every gun tooting you can't take my gun away protester there is 3 sitting at home with guns in there house wondering what the hell they are bitching about!
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
BlackJAC
It's better to be a black king than a white knight
08:50 AM on 04/20/2010
The margin of error on that 69% of NRA members is 69%, for it's the NRA's stated belief that anything even remotely resembling a hurdle in weapons procurement is essentially the same thing as full repeal of the Second Amendment and UN disarmament squads going door-to-door to take the guns away.
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08:17 AM on 04/20/2010
Good article, Mr. Schecter. The ironies are just as ironic, the miserable excuses are just as ingenuous, and the excuses are just as weak as you point out.
07:58 AM on 04/20/2010
The fact is people in the business of selling guns need a Federal license to do it. Saying someone is an "unlicensed gun dealer" is like saying someone is an "unlicensed drug dealer"; he's ALREADY way over the legal line and is off to prison for 10 years.

You don't need a Federal license to sell or buy a gun if you are "not in the business". What gun grabbers want is to make it so that any time you want to sell or buy a gun, you must do it through a dealer and with the background check- it would be like if you sold your car to another person you had to first process the transaction through an auto dealer.

Closing the gun show loophole- whatever it really is -will do nothing and you know it. So-called unlicensed dealers are BS and propaganda designed to fool those who are ignorant of the law.
What the gun grabbers really want is a record of every and all gun sales. After that is in place then they will push for these records to remain permanent- and that is REGISTRATION, the goal.

Get it now?
10:01 AM on 04/20/2010
Silly boy. You are dead wrong, or soon will be if guns are sold in the parking lot. For the record I'm liberal and a legal gunowner.

1. I attend gun shows and usually see some guy who has a few "nice pieces" in his trunk. According to you he's just an innocent private seller hoping to sell's grandpa's unused musket. You know better. He's in business and doesn't want the scrutiny.

2. If closing the gun show loophole "will do nothing", then you shouldn't have an objection. But of course you do, and your knee just keeps jerkin.

3. Re: your car selling example. Cars are all registered/licensed, but somehow you think semi-automatic pistols and convertible AK's should be sold like baseball cards.

4. Guns can be purchased interstate over the internet. But it's required to transfer through a local dealer for a minor fee, say $25. Fair enough and enforces a waiting period and background check. Legitimate gun dealers require the same. Yet somehow you want gunshows and parking lot sales to be done without any scrutiny at all. Get real.

5. Truth is gun rights have expanded under Obama. But due to nutcase conspiracy talk, guns and ammunition are hard to find. Wackos are stockpiling weapons and ammunition and are expecting the rapture. Sadly one of these twisted souls will engage in a suicidal/homicidal outburst based on the kind of paranoia you promote.

Registration? It's guys like you need to be registered, lol...
10:25 AM on 04/20/2010
Now what would I need a gun for in the rapture?

Oh, I know. Jesus luvs killin'!

Kill 'em baby killers! They're killers!

Kill 'em muslims! They're muslim!

Kill 'em LIBERALS! They're, well, LIBERAL!

Yeah.
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10:39 AM on 04/20/2010
I have to admit I'm rather played-out when it comes to arguing about gun rights in here, but I feel obligated to respond to one of your points.
I keep hearing about how "gun rights have expanded under Obama",
I'd like to point out that, in fact, gun rights dont change, gun laws do, and gun laws have expanded despite Obama. Our president has publicly stated that he is in favor of much tighter gun control- "Assault" weapons ban, handgun registration, etc.
I certainly cant and wont argue with your characterization of the "gun rights" trend, but I think it's only fair to say that the expansion of our gun 'rights' certainly wasnt the President's goal.
11:13 AM on 04/20/2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQEDvqmAfqg&feature=player_embedded

just check this out if you need to see what the gun show loophole is all about.
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and combat vet
09:11 PM on 04/20/2010
Name one federal firearm law which ceases to be in effect at a gun show.