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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Pdubya
10:52 PM on 12/13/2008
this is a political charade as the Fed buries a 2 Trillion dollar bailout to unknown sources. Bloomberg News filed a FOI request that was ignored. Congress doesn't even know to whom the money went. Chapter 11 for the auto industries: keep the paycheck, restructure, elimate debt, move forward. Bailout: continues debasing our currency. And last time I checked, I don't need another loan (to buy a car or whatever). I need more contracts, savings, and cash that is worth more than the money its printed upon. Kill the Fed.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Balzac
10:09 PM on 12/13/2008
Ridiculous.
10:01 PM on 12/13/2008
This is horse hockey. All of a sudden you decide to "study" the situation. "I read about the auto industry, the less I am convinced."

Well here is an eye opener. The financial industry has been taking the American public to the cleaners long before the first auto was ever built. They are the "legal sharks" peddling debt better than any drug dealer. What's worst ? America is hooked. We will be suffering withdrawal for a decade and the financial institutions will be making money hand over fist on the taxpayer back.

To be honest, we should have let the financial boys and girls fail, got rid of Paulson and his Fed friend,. bought all the "toxic" mortgages, and sent Wall Street home. Next step, take all of the senior management at ALL three auto firms and put them on the street and promoted the next next level. I'm sure the problem is at the top ...so cut it off.

We also need to purge Washington. We have a bunch of wimps in Congress and we put them there. The GOP needs to develop some brains instead of ideology. I'm sick and tire of these pompous a$$e$ "standing on principal"..."cart before the horse". They need to stop posturing and start stepping up with something constructive.

Step up of step off
09:44 PM on 12/13/2008
We need to start manufacturing goods in greater amounts in this country in order to turn the economy around. We can't keep bidding up existing assets and creating more financial engineers. We also need a healthy middle class to provide demand for a healthy thriving business community. Without that, we are going to see financial armageddon on the middle class and even on those who consider themselves rich. Those who survive will be fewer and fewer as more and more wealth gets consolidated in fewer and fewer hands.

7 Myths about auto makers.

http://www.freep.com/article/20081205/COL14/812050400
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Pdubya
10:47 PM on 12/13/2008
we have to export those goods to people and nations that can still afford to buy them.

america is tapped out.
08:52 PM on 12/13/2008
Who is going to buy a car from a bankrupt car company?

Answer: Nobody. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/80-of-consumers-wont-buy_b_148695.html

80% of Americans won't even CONSIDER buying a car from a bankrupt car company. Who would? I'd just go across the street to a solvent company and buy a car that'll probably have its warranty honored.

Hundreds of billions given, with no oversight, to the bankers who caused the nightmare that's broken our auto industry, but a $15 billion LOAN to the core of the industrial economy is somehow wrong? Give me a break.

And the American auto industry of 2008 is NOT the industry of 1988 or even 1998. Go step into a Chevrolet dealership sometime and test-drive what they're building NOW.
08:06 AM on 12/14/2008
The problem is that they have lost an entire generation of consumers like me. I will NEVER again buy a GM product at any price. Won't even consider it. Why? because of the dismal quality and absolutely shabby service the last time I owned one.

By the way, the BMWs I currently own were built in the US. The last Chevy I owned was built in Mexico. Which one is the US auto industry???
02:54 PM on 12/14/2008
"Loan," yeah right. If they can get this loan now because they're "too big to fail," why would they feel pressured when the loan comes due? There's no reason they couldn't just say they're not ready to pay back the loan--that doing so would put them out of business--but if they could just get another $100 billion...
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Articulator
08:26 PM on 12/13/2008
This article skips over details with a lot of hand waving.

"managers who have been driving the American auto industry into the ground for the past three decades" is short on detail.

Maybe it's unfair trade protections of the foreign markets, lack of health care costs of foreign companies, giveaways that foreign manufacturers get . Maybe it's whatever it is but those are the issues. I have definitely come to the conclusion that there are a lot of people that want it to be the unions no matter what. The first claims of union workers making $70 per hour turned out false, then the hand waving started.
It just may be that the current implementation of "globalization" is weighted against any and all US industries regarding one way free markets and changes have to occur in free trade policies for any US manufacturing to survive. That's where the focus should be instead of rooting for to happen faster.
Wanting the last major element of manufacturing in the US disappear without determining what the real issues are, is putting ideology in front of country. Where are those lapel flag pins now?
Chrysler did repay the loan it got in 1979 in five years with interest. I dont know anyone who anticipated the price of oil spiking as high as it did in such a short time (other than possibly those in the Bush White house). so if bailing out the airline industry after 911 was ok, this isnt different from that.
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Viper
Former repub, still repenting
12:08 AM on 12/14/2008
Ffor several decades yes... just not the last 10 years. Progress has been made. Our Government economic strategy of outsourcing to the cheapest labor source, building new plants there, living on credit to hide the detrimental effects of the race to the bottom is more at fault than the Big3. We have lost 2/3s of MFG since 1980 in EVERY industry&our debt, trade deficits have soared.

We Harp on GM builidng a Hummer... actually in high demand until gas trippled due to speculation caused by Deregulation and not Toyotas 80K Land Curiser or that unlike GM their fleet mileage is today less than it was 20 years ago.

We complain that they pushed large vehicles because they need higher profit margins to offset the wage cost here and the cost of healthcare that products built with $5.00 per day wages and government healthcare dont contend with. Toyota makes its money here on its larger vehicles , just Like GM/Ford. Its never made a profit on the Prius. Its sales are down more than Ford.

So either we lower our wages well below MIn wage and have government healthcare, a government subsidied industry or workers who live in boxes, with no sewage, like much of the world or we use tarrfis and etc to level the playing field and have a it must be built here policy as all of asia does.

Whate we have been doing for the past 30 years is a failure.


Regards
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
StellaRay
07:28 PM on 12/13/2008
It's interesting to note how few posters against the bail out come up with any solution other than let them eat cake. Oh yea, there's a lot of airy fairy stuff about how Toyota will step in, or eventually someone else will start a car company. When, you ask. And how long will it take to be helpful to the millions who will loose their jobs without an auto industry bailout. Well, we can't say.

The prejudice against the auto workers is breath taking to me---apparently those who wear white collars have a right to jockey for a better life because they are....what? Smarter? More important? Higher on the food chain? But God forbid those grease monkies who do no more than slap together a gasket ask for their slice of the pie.

I am no fan of GM, and don't disagree that they have not been a well run company. But what many refuse to acknowledge is that they've survived almost a decade without being a great company. What has forced them to the edge of the cliff is the credit freeze. You know, that little old problem we gave a
huge blank check to the finance industry to avoid. Yeah, well the captains of the universe are sitting on that money like King Midas on his gold, and nobody seems all that upset about it.
08:33 PM on 12/13/2008
Watching these selfsame workers being pushed into a corner year after year as the auto companies transition themselves off shore is more painful than the proposed bankruptcy with its end to the big three and the promise of what will take its place.

Smaller companies built up around product lines like Mustang or Corvette much as Harley Davidson rebuilt itself ... companies with smaller footprints moving back into communities employing more people in the aggregate than the economies of scale.
06:21 PM on 12/13/2008
I'm unemployed, desperately looking for work, and seriously worried about losing my home to foreclosure. I'm very eager for any government stimulation, and EVEN I would love to see GM, Ford, and Chrysler go into bankruptcy. There is nothing to be gained from shoveling federal money thoughtlessly to UAW retirees. After 8 years of watching Bush reward failure, it would be a shame if the Democrats prolong Detroit's agony. Let them go into bankruptcy, and don't try to force millions of Americans to drive the Chevy Volt!
11:09 PM on 12/13/2008
Except those UAW retirees earned their money. The unions are not the problem, friend.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
SShaw490
War doesn't decide who is right, just who is left
05:21 PM on 12/13/2008
I'll tell you what's wrong with Toyota owning the big 3: How many Americans does Toyota employ vs how many Japanese? And why would you think it would be any different if Toyota owned GM?

I don't understand the mentality of people who don't care if Americans have productive, creative work to do. America's GDP is, at its core, the sum total of American productive, creative work. If they stop having the opportunity to do work, what does that sum total wind up equalling? Zero, that's what.

It's worse than just a disagreement of principal, when people genuinely don't care if Americans have work. It's a disagreement about the core puropse of human beings. It's a disagreement about the essence of the souls of people. It's one side thinking people are gifted by God to produce and create; and the other side thinking that the purpose of life is simple capitalization for the sole purpose of having capital.

The fact that we even have such a debate is indicative of a very, very sick society. GM isn't the sick party - the people in this country whose only value is dollar value are the sick ones.
04:51 PM on 12/13/2008
Why are you still falling for the

Banks needed it

But the real economy doesn't?

You are lost in the GOP Hoover propaganda machine.

Loan the auto companies the money.

You know, the REAL economy, not the banker gambling debts.

Stop picking on the workers.

Use the remaining money to gov building orders for green energy, eff, solar wind, plug in hybrid cars

That 300B$ will jump start the economy with gov competitive contract orders, that the banks will lend to companies that get them. The companies will hire, the mortgages will be paid, cars will be bought.

Economy restarted.

It's GOP banker hoover failure

versus

FDR Union people public works

success.

Even Cheney see's it.

Hoover's Failure:
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=can_we_have_a_new_deal_without_the_new_dealers

Read how FDR dealt with the banks:
http://larouchepub.com/other/2007/3409fdr_banks_33.html

Please read up on the Great Depression with this time line:
http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/connections_n2/great_depression.html

My profile has more ref links.
05:38 PM on 12/13/2008
Your profile also has a lot of mistakes.

:-)
06:48 PM on 12/13/2008
I repeat my invitation to one and all to point out specific errors with documentation please.

No Doubt there are errors.

I would appreciate having them pointed out.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
bioluminescence
02:08 PM on 12/13/2008
This is precisely the time Americans should stop questioning the actions and rhetoric of both parties and start questioning the political system itself. The fact is both parties are fundamentally in favor of a Detroit bail-out and everyone knows that eventually a deal will get done. The question that should be asked of the system is, "Does business exist for people, or do people exist for business?" When the business elite are making money they tell government to stay out of their affairs. But when they lose money, they want government to be their partner. The result? A $10 trillion debt. A bigger share of national income for the wealthy elite while the working and middle classes earn a smaller piece of the pie even though their productivity is up. A Chevy versus a Ford; a Republican versus a Democrat. Is there really a difference?
03:11 PM on 12/13/2008
I think you're referring to the economic system. The political system is sound in theory, but it's been dominated by the oligarch elites, the majority shareholders, who set the dominant cultural philosophy and systematically corrupt the public consciousness and the political system.
It's time to nationalize the auto, oil, health, pharm, transportation and energy systems to remove the control by these short-sighted, me-first, quarterly-return-on-investment oblivious idiots we've been indoctrinated to look up to and obey.
See my comment below for a more complete reply.
01:39 PM on 12/13/2008
300,000,000 people in USA. (rounding of course)
14,000,000,000 loan to auto companies

14000000000/300000000 = 14000/300 = 140/3= about $50 per person

Yeah too much, lets just destroy the businesses, dump out all the old retirees in the street to starve, put 2 to 3 million on unemployment rolls, drive thousands of businesses bankrupt, have another major industry go overseas so more national wealth can pour out of USA, add more than a million homes to foreclosure mess adding to banking mess, with an average of say 4 people to an auto job dependent family lets just add 8 to 12 million people to the poverty and unemployable lists, watch the cities, state and counties that the auto industry is in go belly up and stop even being able to afford police much less fixing potholes or stopping fires.

I think this is such a GOOD idea that since my house has some problems, instead of fixing it, I am gonna tear it down. Don't need so much room (kinda like the bike argument) so what the heck. I am not conserned about those who live with me in that house because damn it , it feels good to tear it down because it was getting shopworn and shabby because we haven't been doing repairs or improvements and the neighbors are mad because it looks bad. So LET'S TEAR it down and sit in the devastation. Heck at least I will pay less property taxes.
02:28 PM on 12/13/2008
The US will need the same number of cars every year, so the 2-3 million that were needed to build these cars will be needed elsewhere in the country to build cars.

If you really detest GM et al management, the let them go broke. The managers will be out of a job, and the employees and factories will be picked up by Toyota and Honda to meet the new demand they will face.

But if your goal is to ensure GM et al keep making crappy cars that nobody wants, and that the union workers are paid higher than medicaid doctors in the US, then by all means, bail them out.
06:21 PM on 12/13/2008
"Cars that nobody wants." The Detroit Three sold only about 8 million cars last year--apparently to nobody.
05:43 PM on 12/13/2008
This year we exported $500 billion in return for foreign oil. Much of it for no better reason than the US automobile company's lobbying against higher fuel efficiency standards.

$500 billion/300 million = $1667 per capita.

Your math is wrong and so are your motives.

You put a few people before the needs and security of the country.

Shame on you.
06:13 PM on 12/14/2008
What the heck does oil consumption have to do with this issue except that this is another way we export money to overseas? Update our car companies and make energy efficient cars here. We now have the upper hand. They do in Europe (the big 3 have models there that get good mileage) No it is so much better tear it all down because we drove cars that used foreign oil.

SHAME ON YOU? LMFAO. Actually I would say to you PO . I feel no shame for favoring recycling, reusing, retooling and renovating. I feel that we can spare $50 to try to save millions of jobs (since auto companies affect many other businesses)

Actually I wouldn't be so rude as to say that to you in such a patronizing and offputting way. Bet that is real effective for accomplishing change? Do you have many people walk away in the middle of your proclamations and dissonance? I hardly consider 2 to 3 million workers and thier families (totaling a low ball estimate of another 6 to 9 million spouses & children) a few damn people since 1 vote can change an election. Just like I hardly consider pensioners people who should now have the promises made to them reneged on and tossed to side of the road because republicans in past allowed companies, corporations and government agencies to dip into the pension funds at will.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
moonflowerjewelry
Buy American made, no excuses.
01:19 PM on 12/13/2008
all through the election i heard one of my republican friends complain about obama being a communist. americans are so afraid of that word that they will complain about poor people, the mentally ill, the unemployed etc. getting any benefits (read handouts) from government agencies. it is their fault if they are poor, we like to say. and now, big fat checks for people at the top of the banking and car industry food chain (in terms of internal corporate structure) so they can keep mismanaging the companies involved. have we all lost our minds?
01:58 PM on 12/13/2008
Well, in the majority of cases, I would say, Yes, it is their fault that they are poor. People make all kinds of decisions in life, many of them are the wrong ones. Obviously there are exceptions (mental and physical health problems, etc.) but there is so much opportunity in this country, if you work hard, that it is hard for me to drum up sympathy much of the time for persons who made poor life choices.

And I was against EVERY bailout, not just the GM one.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
eilish
Life ain't like a box of chocolates
06:54 PM on 12/13/2008
And arencha' glad you don't work for one of the big 3 so you can be pompous. I have a son who has worked 17 years in the microchip industry designing huge computers. Watching him get laid off and nowhere to go - you are truly unaware that there are NO opportunities out there right now? Especially for auto workers?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
kjg25171
06:55 PM on 12/13/2008
There are many very hard working people whose jobs do not pay enough to support them and their families. I'll just bet you like to have someone wait on you when you go out to eat or shop in a department store. We need to reward all hard work with decent wages. You are heartless.
01:16 PM on 12/13/2008
You may think you live in a global economy. For autos, Japan and Korea live mostly in Japan and Korea with the rest of the globe as an additional market. And cut the crap that the Big Three are totally incompetent. Not true. They are doing quite well in some markets. Toyota is an admirable company backed by a country with a clear understanding of national interest (as opposed to the U.S.) and a good industrial policy that has evolved over time. Toyota is, however, not American. You want to be a superpower? Then you need a technological edge not just manufacturing. The only way to do that is to have your own industry. Ask the Japanese if they would sell off a major industry. Oh, they have maybe the lowest level of inward foreign direct investment in the OECD. That's not a coincidence.
05:51 PM on 12/13/2008
If you want to be like Toyota, be like Toyota and be a business leader WITHOUT subsidy. Because Toyota is not getting subsidies. They are still profitable. Look up their last earnings.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
StellaRay
07:12 PM on 12/13/2008
"The US auto market is shrinking rapidly," Toyota said. "A major bankruptcy
would exacerbate an already difficult environment for Toyota and the industry.
We hope to avoid this situation."
12:58 PM on 12/13/2008
Stormboy, I could not agree more, but the facts are GM, and to a lesser extent Ford and Chrysler have been at the leading edge of mass transit and hauling since the early 1930's. Most of the buses you see in cities were made at GM Truck and Bus in Flint MI. GM pioneered the use of cleaner, cheaper, propane gas to use in urban buses in the 1980's, still in use today. Detroit Diesel Allison use to make most engines used in tractor trailers and freight hauling, where fuel efficiency equals company survival. GM Locomotive invented the diesel electric motors used in all locomotive engines. Clean, efficient, fabulous torque so you can haul more freight/passengers per, load equals profit. The list goes on and on. Toyota builds cars, AND trucks, big trucks, period. They and Honda and Nissan (formerly Datsun) have spent billions developing a line of trucks to compete head to head with the domestics in every segment! They don't seem too interested in developing mass transit though, at least until the market is guaranteed profitable, and their competitors weak enough to be easily over come. Speaking of training, you people really should read Sun Tzu's "The Art of War", it is required reading in Japanese management schools, along with other fine marketing ideas! Just thought you should know.
01:42 PM on 12/13/2008
The Japanese have made good use of Sun Tzu's dictum that you must first control the mind of your adversary. Maybe they didn't just get it from the old boy. In Japan the apparent can often be just as important as the real. Toyota is a fine company. It is not American. All Japanese cars are not better than all Big Three vehicles. Of course, a lot of the problem is American blindness to the world as it is instead of as we would like it to be. Mitch M says he doesn't want to "pick winners and losers" and the idea that industrial policy doesn't work is widespread and has been for years. The result is that Mitch and friends do pick winners and losers - companies from places that don't mind picking winners and losers and have decent industrial policies.

May I also recommend The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi, a (the) famous Japanese swordsman of the early 1600s. Actually, forget the book. Musashi wasn't that great as a writer and as far as I can tell most Japanese business men get their Musashi info by reading commentary on the book anyway. What it really says it that the only thing that counts is winning and it doesn't matter how you do it.
05:53 PM on 12/13/2008
"Clean, efficient, fabulous torque" is only useful if you actually are towing something. If you aren't (like 99% of all truck owners), all it does is to incur $500 billion in cost for oil imports for your country, which came very close to bankrupting us this year. One more such year and we can kiss the US economy goodbye.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
eilish
Life ain't like a box of chocolates
06:56 PM on 12/13/2008
Check your rearview. The economy said buh bye a year ago.