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03:47 AM on 09/02/2012
The reason I know that Christopher Rollston doesn't know what he is talking about is because he takes one omission and makes a mountain out of it, ignoring all the other references to women in the other 9 commandments. Those other references do not infer that women are second class citizens:

Exodus 20: 8-- daughter and maidservant are included in the list
20:12--says 'Honor your father AND MOTHER. if women were considered second class, they would not be given equal honor with their husbands.
20:14-- speaks against committing adultery which means men and women do not stray and find multiple partners.

Rollston has just ruined his credibility with this one-sided, ill-researched, badly argued, and agenda driven piece of work
04:10 AM on 09/02/2012
You're simply pointing to a couple of exceptions to the rule. Which Rollston himself mentioned that the bible contains.
04:28 AM on 09/02/2012
No I am not. Rollston willfully ignored them and called them exceptions so he could make his wild false accusations against the Bible and God. He clearly does not understand what the biblical authors have recorded and ignores the point of the actions he is railing against, in order to keep his agenda afloat.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach
07:20 AM on 09/02/2012
The one real exception is "Honor your father and mother"; all other mentions of females in the Ten Commandments are in a list which includes animals. But notice the "Do not covet" commandment. One is not to covet "your neighbor's wife" there is not mention of not coveting "your neighbor's husband." The point should be obvious. These commandments were written by men for men.
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livefortruth
There is only ONE truth.
03:31 PM on 09/02/2012
It's not obvious to him.
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Stephanie Gustafson
12:56 AM on 09/02/2012
This is why I have a such a hard time with Christianity. I like the idea of a forgiving God, but not one who makes a point of punishing women for all eternity just because one disobeyed Him and ate an apple off the wrong tree.
05:05 AM on 09/02/2012
also Adam disobeyed God and he was punished as Eve.
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squirrely girl
Assistant Professor ~ Developmental Psychology
03:51 PM on 09/02/2012
Wasn't she punished with pain and suffering in childbirth on top of the banishment?
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach
12:21 PM on 09/02/2012
First of all, the story of Adam and Eve shows the woman as a strong, independent thinker; and the man as a weak-willed namby-pamby wimp. Second, there is no eternal punishment in early Hebrew theology. That theology was developed later and has nothing to do with the Genesis story. On the other hand, I would concur that this etiological myth is not a totally satisfying explanation for the human situation. And yet as a story, it grips one's imagination, and has influenced great art.
07:50 PM on 09/01/2012
all religions marginalize women, because men (i mean males) came up with these religions. men view women as nothing but property, so their ideas are transmuted into these ideologies. islam is the worst because it's a political ideology, but all of these ideas are there because all men think this way. things are basically the same, women have just managed to change a few laws (and they'll change back if we don't keep fighting).

as an atheist, i know that religion is the biggest impediment to women's progress and lives. so these "biblical" values are something i love to talk about. religious women don't want to hear it though, beacuse they've been taught to fear men, fear hell, and fear living a free life.
05:03 AM on 09/02/2012
ok. tell me what was woman position in atheist China and URSS....
06:28 AM on 09/02/2012
Actually Marx was a big proponent of gender equality as was the USSR and China. Obviously the actual culture did differ from the ideology.
07:22 AM on 09/02/2012
read carefully, dear. i didn't say ONLY religions marginalize women. all men view women as inferior, it translates everywhere. religion is simply one way (the best way) to control women, since it plays on fear of death and the afterlife.  the least religious societies (like scandanavian countries, australia, new zealand) have the best gender equality. islamic countries have the worst. furthermore, china has an official state christian church. and if you didn't notice, the USSR doesn't exist anymore. it reverted back to having a state christian orthodox church. same crap, just a different name.  please pay attention and stop embarassing yourself.
05:55 AM on 09/02/2012
'all religions marginalize women'?
If this is true, tell me why women are more religious than men (this is demonstrated in every statistical analysis in every country).
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach
07:23 AM on 09/02/2012
My guess would be that not being bread earners, many women have more time to devote to their religious practices. Although my wife is the bread earner in my family, and she loves to go to church. So perhaps there is more to it.
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squirrely girl
Assistant Professor ~ Developmental Psychology
03:53 PM on 09/02/2012
Better to be at the right hand of the devil than in his path?
05:48 PM on 09/01/2012
Woment in biblical time wee property. Women today are treated severly by muslims. The quran gives husbands permisson to the man to beat his wife. Any one not a muslim is eather a second class citizen or a slave or dead. If a man or woman converts he has allah's permission to kill him. I do not understand the attack on Christianity? some one has never been saved and seams hostile to Jesus.
I say you need to repent! Christianity gives the freedom and equality you so cherish here in America.
What does any other religon do........
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Tribalenvy
12:01 AM on 09/02/2012
Read the article.
05:36 PM on 09/01/2012
There is a book called "The Urantia Book" that states that men and women are EQUAL... and until the people on Earth adapt their society to that... there will not be much progress in this planet's progress to obtain peace. Past cultures/societies keep women in subordinate classifications... which also spilled over into their man made rules of religion... and according to GOD... man and woman are EQUAL! Read ... "The Urantia Book"... lots of interesting things in there to learn about ... even science...
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nikanj
free the fnords
07:14 PM on 09/03/2012
The main message i got from the Urantia Book is that
our universe is, in fact, a bureaucratic nightmare . . .
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TheWM
aka The Wrong Monkey
03:52 PM on 09/01/2012
"A Biblical Value We Don't Like to Talk About"

What you mean, "we," Kimosabe?
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach
07:42 AM on 09/02/2012
The title is a rhetorical devise, he didn't mean to suggest that it has never been talked about until now. In fact, this issue has been debated often in the last century.
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TheWM
aka The Wrong Monkey
09:41 AM on 09/02/2012
Over and over "enlightened" believers claim: "You don't underSTAND, it's a rheTORical device!" If you never admit that you made a mistake, chances are you'll keep making it.
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03:03 PM on 09/01/2012
Thanks to the Vatican, Mother's don't even know their own prayer that was to be said with the Father's prayer and here is both: "And pray every day to your Heavenly Father and Earthly mother, that your soul become as perfect as your Heavenly Father's holy spirit is perfect, and that your body become as perfect as the body of your Earthly Mother is perfect. For if you understand, feel, and do the commandments, then all for which you pray to your Heavenly Father and your Earthly Mother will be given you....

"After this manner, therefore, pray to your Heavenly Father: Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

"And after this manner pray to your Earthly Mother: Our Mother which art upon earth, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, and thy will be done in us, as it is in thee. As thou sendest every day thy angels, send them to us also. Forgive us our sins, as we atone all our sins against thee. And lead us not into sickness, but deliver us from all evil, for thine is the earth, the body, and the health. Amen.
03:38 AM on 09/04/2012
That's a bibically based prayer?
03:02 PM on 09/01/2012
The author inadvertently fell into his own trap. He reads with the majority biblical view and marginalises the minority. He says that the majority of the Bible is misogynistic, though he briefly mentions pro-women views in the Bible. "Yes, there were biblical women who flourished in spite of the patriarchy, women like Ruth, Esther, Lydia and Priscilla." The Bible is not monolithically misogynistic, but holds its views of women in tension.

The fact that the Bible holds powerful woman leaders alongside the more demeaning views of women demonstrates how complex the Bible is. The Bible presents a view of society that puts women below women, and women who succeed as leaders.

We may not want to admit it, but our own society demonstrates ambivalence about women. Many Americans demonstrate strong support for women as inferior to men in many ways. At the same time, many Americans demand that we all recognize women as leaders as strong as any man. Each side would likely say the other is wrong, but neither side can say that the other doesn't exist.

I think we can have a productive conversation if we answer the question: in what ways does our society marginalize women? How does the Bible reflect the reality of our society? How does it differ? If we don't deal with this ambivalence, we end up reading through our own, preferred lens.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach
08:51 AM on 09/02/2012
I liked your post and concur with most of it. But I wonder how did Rollston 'inadvertently fall into his own trap'? He never suggested that the Bible was "monolithically misogynistic"? Frankly, I don't see how Rollston's and your POV are that far apart, but then perhaps I'm missing something.
10:23 PM on 09/02/2012
I'm sorry I didn't explain myself clearly. Let me see if I can express myself better.

Rollston concluded, "So, the next time someone refers to "biblical values," it's worth mentioning to them that the Bible often marginalized women and that's not something anyone should value." He seems to believe that the dominant view in the Bible is the "biblical view," and that the exceptions are merely "exceptions."

What I think is that the Bible is contradictory about its view of women. It includes texts that marginalizes women, and ones that highlight them. Women are property at times, and are strong leaders at times. Women are victims, women are agents--even at the same time (eg, Ruth). I think that reading against the grain of the Bible shows that the Bible is essentially contradictory, not misogynistic.
12:30 PM on 09/01/2012
Christopher Rollston is free to express his opinion(s), and his article, "The Marginalization of Women: A Biblical Value We Don't Like to Talk About," is nothing more than his opinion. As such, he should replace the word, "we," in his title and replace it with, "I." Furthermore, he fails miserably in his attempt to validate his opinion with cherry-picked scriptures and random references to ancient societal commentary. I would reword Rollston's conclusive admonition as so: the next time someone refers to Biblical values it is worth mentioning to them that people like Rollston often exert their unsubstantiated opinions as proof that the Bible is untenable. That's not something any one should accept.
05:39 PM on 09/01/2012
You are very correct plus he only tells one side of the story as he ignores and omits the passage in Ephesians which direct men to love their wives as Christ loves the church. Those few words say a lot in directing men how to behave toward their wives.

Sadly, too many supposed christians want to appease the secular world and compromise the Bible to fit what secular culture wants instead of being the light unto the world.
08:16 AM on 09/02/2012
Get real.....if it were not for the "secular world" do you think women would ever be CEO's, politicians, lawyers, and doctors? Apparently all you think women are good for is to be wives. How many people follow the strict interpretation of the bible in 2012? Try joining the real world sometime.....
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squirrely girl
Assistant Professor ~ Developmental Psychology
03:55 PM on 09/02/2012
That one should be commanded to love another doesn't mean they're commanded to treat them as equals.
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monique rn
Now, on to the corporations
11:38 AM on 09/01/2012
Well documented, excellent piece. And I couldn't agree more with the conclusion.If one is to use biblical writings as the compass for all behaviors, we will find ourselves in a place where women make less money, don't have the ability to make reproduction decisions. Hey, wait a minute...
05:51 PM on 09/01/2012
If you agree perhaps you should study the resrection of Jesus more closely. Usally if someone is negative twards Jesus he is close to bing judged by God him self
07:53 PM on 09/01/2012
there is no god and jesus didn't exist either. get over it.
08:33 AM on 09/01/2012
Did Vashti ascend to the Palace and the Kings side by other than the power of beauty and grace?
Doesn't that carry with it a certain amount on responsibility to further enable the Kings power, ie, show all that he is dominant by having the most desirable bride? Weren't even male female relationships mostly symbiotic in those days? Did she wish to have her cake and eat it too?
ThinkCreeps
Seriously, it's time.
07:13 AM on 09/01/2012
God's going to get the last laugh when the superstitious misogynists all turn up postmortem and learn she's a girl.
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Yellowcab
100 % Cotton
12:20 PM on 09/01/2012
For all the hate and criticism heaped on him, God will be a man..."The world would be a better place if women ran it" applies to Gods too,doesn't it?
05:46 PM on 09/01/2012
God contains what he creates and God contains both Male and Female... God created both man and woman and they have their SOURCE in GOD... and when God made Adam, Adam was made both Man/Woman... and later God put Adam to sleep (when Adam complained to God that he was alone and all creation species were duel... male and female of the species... So God took out Adam's "rib" which was the Woman part of Adam and seperated thehuman species into two individual beings, Male and Female. (In a sence of humor... I say..."God split the Adam (Atom)."
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SmileAndActNice
Utilitarianism, the -ism that works.
01:04 AM on 09/02/2012
You can't give your diety a gender if you only have one of them. Gendered things require a partner of the other gender to create life.

So your monotheistic God is an It.
07:53 PM on 09/01/2012
there is no god.
ThinkCreeps
Seriously, it's time.
03:22 AM on 09/02/2012
Well, there is that too ;-)
ThinkCreeps
Seriously, it's time.
07:11 AM on 09/01/2012
To be fair, the bible marginalizes an awful lot of men too.
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Yellowcab
100 % Cotton
12:21 PM on 09/01/2012
Yes but marginalized men never count. All men were oppressors then, just as ALL men are sexist CEOs now.
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squirrely girl
Assistant Professor ~ Developmental Psychology
06:11 PM on 09/01/2012
I think the difference is that men were marginalized based on status... women were marginalized by birth.
03:01 AM on 09/01/2012
I think the writer left out the most important- Jesus
He stood up for a woman they were about to stone to death
He not only spoke to the woman at the well , but treated her respectfully- no the norm
There were healing of women called by name
And a HUGE one- in the garden after the resurrection he told the women what had happened and told them to go back to the men and tell them. This was in a day where a woman's testimony was worthless.
08:20 AM on 09/01/2012
yes indeed... It is very strange to figure out mysoginists writing that the first testemonies of the Resurrection were women...
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Yellowcab
100 % Cotton
12:23 PM on 09/01/2012
I wouldn't say a woman'a testimony was worthless back then.

How ELSE did a woman pull off "GOD impregnanted me"? I mean, talk about an UNBELIEVEABLE story!

Could Jesus' mother have been the first recorded case of paternity fraud?
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LARRY LOU CHRISTIAN
01:58 AM on 09/01/2012
I hope this sheds some light on this "inequality" misconception.

Christ is every man's Head; the man holds the position, especially in worship
and in his family, with no visible superior, holding headship from, and directly
responsible only to, Christ. For that reason the man is the head of the woman,
the latter occupying a position of subordination to him, a fact which by no
means implies inferiority, but merely a relation fixed by God's order. Woman, in
her relation to her husband, if she is a wife, or with regard to her activity in
public worship, has her support, her destiny, and her dignity in man. And that
this status is by no means derogatory to her intellect, ability, or moral
character is shown by the fact that, in the parallel clause, God is called the
Head of the exalted Christ. In this case there is absolute essential equality,
and yet Christ's perfect obedience to the Father consents to a submission in
office. Cp. chap. 15, 28; Gal. 4, 4; Heb. 5, 5. 8.”
07:05 AM on 09/01/2012
Sorry that doesn't shed any light on it at all. And you don't need the quotes on the word inequality. It's just straight up Inequality.

No point sugar coating it. The Bible encourages and justifies the denigration of women, just as all religions do. It's part of the history of mankind, that men created religions to worship themselves and used their created religions to denigrate and control women. It's on the record. All we can do now is overcome it, not try and explain it away or justify it.
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Yellowcab
100 % Cotton
12:26 PM on 09/01/2012
They also controlled and denigrated other men. Men. You know, the SLAVE labor force used for brutal labor?

That is ALSO the history of man AND womankind. Not all men were kings (CEOs) just as not all women were plantation mistresses.
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LARRY LOU CHRISTIAN
02:24 AM on 09/02/2012
 
TO: Grinling Gibbons ************** 

If God, who created us, did not “denigrate” women or men, by what authority do you usurp Him? 

God gave roles to man and woman that are equal in importance and dignity. 
Choosing to depart from those roles and responsibilities only brings strife, confusion, and dysfunction to what God intended as a harmonious and peaceful family setting. 

God never intended an imbalance concerning the rights and dignity each human possesses. Mankind did that all by themselves. Don’t blame God.
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Mollyannie
Thinking "I can't" guarantees failure
07:54 AM on 09/01/2012
@Larry: good luck with that. It is a circular argument. The bible was written by men for the benefit of men, so quoting it as a source of authority over women is worthless. I do not need any man to be my "head", especially if his only qualification for that is his genitalia.
08:17 AM on 09/01/2012
It seems that you read the Bible in a literalistic way as fundamentalist do.
The American Constitution was written by men and it states 'alla men are created equal'...
So I suppose that you think that the American Constitution is not applicable to you.
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LARRY LOU CHRISTIAN
02:04 AM on 09/02/2012
TO:   Mollyannie  ***************** 
2 PETER 1:19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”  ********************
 

1 CORINTHIANS 2:13 “When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.”***************
 
1 JOHN 4:4 “You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.”