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Kenneth Mundy
07:37 PM on 05/04/2010
All you Huffers (sniffing intoxicants out of obama's a##) you complain about illegal (breaking the law) immigarants having to produce papers showing they are legal, and to do so is racial profiling. Look you dumb $%%, when I go fishing I must produce my papers "Federal law requires you keep this card with you when fishing in designated waters and present to law enforcement officers when required". Of course if this was asked of illegal, littering Mexican fishers who abuse the fishing laws you would cry bloody murder for RACIAL PROFILING. MAY CIVIL WAR COME!!!!!!!!
Martha Mann
07:51 PM on 05/04/2010
Wow. Sounds like you might be a little too worked up to make any sort of intelligent conclusion here. And fishing...really? All the name calling doesn't really make you (or your cause) look good. So allow me to retort. I am not "complaining about illegal immigrants having to produce papers" ...the issue is not whether it is ok to ask for proof of citizenship - the issue is the unintended yet predictable consequences of this policy. We all know that racial profiling is an issue in this country and this law just gives people one more reason to profile. Yeah, yeah profiling is illegal, but has that ever stopped anyone? Check out the statistics on the number of African Americans stopped in traffic and the number of citations actually issued to that of white folk. People of color are pulled over at alarmingly higher rates than caucasians yet an equal if not less number of citations are actually issued in those stops. A year from now I GUARANTEE the number of Latinos pulled over for traffic stops will go up exponentially. All in the name of immigration reform. I don't deny something's gotta give to deal with the problem of illegal immigration, but a policy that compromises the rights of thousands of LEGAL citizens merely based on the fact that they "look" possibly illegal is shameful.
Kenneth Mundy
08:12 PM on 05/04/2010
Now, what if after asking you to produce your fishing credentials, they asked to see proof of your boat insurance or residency - oh oh - filthy authorities. Requiring illegals to have insurance is RACIST!!!!!!
08:42 PM on 05/04/2010
You (and apparently B. Hussein the Constitutional instructor?) obviously haven't read the law. Police have to be involved in some other direct contact such as a traffic stop or another crime before they can ask for I.D. They expressly are forbidden to just pull someone over and ask for their "papers". The LIES you Lefties tell are incredible
07:31 PM on 05/04/2010
Many people here are missing the point.

A vast majority of people in this country who might appear to be "hispanic" ARE in fact either here legally or are American citizens. These people have children. When these people are stopped and harassed, and they will be under Arizona's law, what effect will this have on these young people? I'm assuming the posters here want these young people growing up confident of their place here in this country...will they feel as if they are fully American citizens if they constantly see their parents legally profiled?

And will have an effect. And yes, there will be profiling.
11:19 PM on 05/04/2010
You have gotten to the heart of the issue tjb22! The fact remains that this is a devastating profiling ploy with long lasting negative implications.
11:44 PM on 05/04/2010
Whether people are comfortable with it or not, these children will play a major role in the future of this country...what effect will it have it they feel disaffected at an early age? Are we really comfortable telling them that they aren't really quite "real" Americans and thus subject to having their civil rights constantly violated?

And let me say again...I am in awe at what I see from most immigrant families. Most of us can't pretend to hold a candle to their efforts to succeed. They will, and constantly do, things that many long-time Americans just aren't quite willing to do. They are our future, and without them we are stagnant.
Protect at
03:23 AM on 05/05/2010
Have you read the amended law? No one can just be stopped under the amended law.

Just curious. If we can't enforce our basic immigration laws against foreign nationals, is there anyone who thinks we can do the really tough work of enforcing our laws against the wealthy and powerful citizens of the US?
It is what it is
07:24 PM on 05/04/2010
I think I see a trend.

If the illegal immigrants have managed to breed while they are here - which usually means that birth was paid for by someone else - then they should be given a pass.

If illegal immigrants, of which the overwhelming majority are hispanic, are in any manner singled by their ethinticity at a higher percentage then the representive communities in which they live, it's racist so they should be given a pass.

If illegal immigrants have managed to evade detection (meaning they are REALLY sneaky) for a few years then they should be given a pass.

If illegal immigrants continue to flood over the border years from now they should be given a pass because they are our future.

How about instead we just keep it simple. The only immigration we allow are people who will never and have never committed any crime here and are decent people. They should be highly educated so that they can contribute instead of taking. They should be in numbers that our FRAGILE ECOSYSTEM can handle and only when it benifits US, the citizens of THIS country!!!
Protect at
03:28 AM on 05/05/2010
You know, it's really interesting when you take a step back and consider the debate. The people who want to boycott Arizona because they believe strongly that the people of Arizona should be held accountable for the decisions made by the democratically-elected government officials of Arizona. Yet Many of Those Same People aren't willing to hold Mexicans accountable for the government and conditions of the Democratic nation of Mexico at all.
They seem to be saying that the people of Mexico are just so pathetic and inferior that it's unfair to hold them accountable for their own government or to build their own successful nation, or to obey the laws. Well, it's not true. The people of the nation of Mexico have the same general intelligence and cognitive capacities and basic competencies as the people of any other nation. They are perfectly capable of building a successful society of their own.
07:07 PM on 05/04/2010
U PWARD MOBILITY awaits those who take advantage of opportunities!!
We grew up during the Great Depression with parents from Germany who were hard working
like most Latinos today. They were poor, having lost their savings in the crash of '29. Yet 5 of their
6 children were college bound. Now the fifth generation of Americans are living the American Dream
of education and middle or better class. I see a positive outcome for Latino youths.
10:19 PM on 05/04/2010
reat post. Thank God for a sense of optimism out there among the other dour and miserly souls posting on this thread.
10:31 AM on 05/05/2010
And those parent snuck over the Mexican border to get in? Or over the Canadian border? Or were smuggled in on a boat to some backwater locale? Just curious.
11:12 AM on 05/05/2010
If you want to talk lawbreaking activity: Who ignored the prohibition law/ Who uses a cell
phone while driving? Who uses marijuana? Who exceeds the speed limit? Who cheats
on his income tax? I think a lot of us are lawbreakers of one kind or another. It's just
a matter of degree, and whether or not we hurt others.

I wonder how many of our antecedents were guilty of the "crime" that we now castigate others for. I think the immigration issue is far more complicated than most of us realize.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
Those who never question will fall for anything.
06:56 PM on 05/04/2010
Wow...these two chicks are way off base here. The law in AZ does not allow cops to stop anyone with brown skin for any reason whatsoever. This is pure fear mongering and silliness. Yeah, it's unfortunate that these kids who are American citizens have to have parents that are criminals. I guess the parents NEVER thought of that when they sneaked into this country and had 5 or 6 kids here. Never thought or never cared?? LOL. If Mexico cared about it's own citizens it would be helping to re-patriot all the illegals that are here in America. Mexico does NOT care one fiddle about these's just fewer poor people for THEM to worry about. This ploy of using the children of these lawbreakers as a reason to be against the AZ law is not working. These children should not be considered American citizens in the first place...what's with that s**t anyway?
12:29 PM on 05/05/2010
Okay, I am only going to say this one more time. Not all Latino children have immigrant parents. My children would be considered Latino in this country -- and even speak Spanish -- but it is their grandparents who are the immigrants. We may "look" Hispanic, but we are Americans.

And, yes, this law will probably disproportionately apply to Hispanics/Latinos. Just look at some of the vitriolic and misguided comments in this thread. There clearly is a bias against brown people with Spanish surnames as many of you are assuming they are "illegal," or the "children of illegals." Undocumented immigrants actually make up only a sliver of the entire Hispanic population. That said, this law does allow people, like those of you making these comments, to call the police if you suspect that someone is in the country illegally. The police are in their right to investigate and in fact could be SUED if they do not request documentation of the people you have called the cops on. This is why Hispanic people are worried. I am not saying that the United States should not enforce its immigration laws, I just want to show you WHY Latinos feel uncomfortable visiting Arizona or any other state with this law. I, for one, do not like feeling like a foreigner in my own country.
05:39 PM on 05/05/2010
My father carried his citizenship papers with him during WWII because of the prejudice
against Germans. Other nationalities have borne the brunt of such prejudice in turn.
It's "deja vu" all over again. Do we ever learn?

I hope this, too, shall pass, and soon. Unfortunately worries about the economy and other things they have no control over are causing people to overreact to all situations.
newspapers, your local watchdog
06:46 PM on 05/04/2010
Latinos have long had the highest drop out rates compared to other ethnic groups. Not a good thing for the future of our country and since it is a big future indicator of poverty, why did it go unmentioned here?
Martha Mann
08:07 PM on 05/04/2010
Are you aware of the reasons WHY latino students drop out at a higher rate than others? As a high school teacher and someone who is very interested in race and education, let me explain. Educational research (loads of it) tells us that people of different races learn and communicate differently. We have a system based on very rigid outcome measures and teaching methods that was intended for Anglo-European (white!) students that does not even ackowledge let alone meet the needs of student of color whether they be African American or Latino. Our current educational system was created at a time when it was ILLEGAL to teach people of color to read or write - a system that at NO TIME ever intended to teach minorities. As such we have a system that fails students of color. At this point I usually get a birage of "but, but but!"s usually about socio-economic status or family involvement, yadda yadda yadda. It's everyone's fault except . . the system! But at the end of the day, it is OUR job as educators to make sure students are staying in school and graduating with a decent eduaction. That means we as educators need to adapt to what research tells us is necesary to keep all of our kids motivated and able to stay in school.
newspapers, your local watchdog
08:28 PM on 05/04/2010
Excuses excuses.
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
08:56 PM on 05/04/2010
Hopefully you are not an English teacher otherwise you probably get a "birage" of criticism for your student's inability to spell.

Secondly this country has gone through hoops to accommodate the NCLB mandate from Mrs. Bush. This includes ESL classes and a lot of curriculum accommodations. California went as far as putting substandard schools under city management to straighten them up. Outcomes based education has not worked anywhere in the world so what are you suggesting?

I get the whole deal that learning is affected by cultural influences - you learn in the context of what you know. I believe that the real reason is that culture drives values which in turn set expectations. Negativity and a collective lack of will are pandemic in certain communities, where a laser focus on education and academic achievement exists in others. Go to UCI and you will see a disproportionate percentage of Asian students because academic achievement as a non-negotiable outcome for many Asian children. We joke about Jewish Doctors or Lawyers and the stereotypical Jewish mother manically aspiring to have her children in high paying professional careers.

Until a community takes collective responsibility for improving their lot - they will languish. Santa Ana in California has the highest percentage Hispanics of any city in the country. It is not coincidental that they have one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates. The Hispanics that I worked with in a factory there told me that this was a function of the culture there.
12:33 PM on 05/05/2010
Um, this is all in the report for which I provided a link. We did not lay them out because we did not want to take anything out of context. Puerto Ricans, for example, disproportionately live in poverty and may drop out of school, but again, they ARE -- we are -- American citizens who are free to travel between the two countries without documentation. There are military bases in Puerto Rico and many are in the Army (like my family). That's why it is important to address the issues mentioned in the report because deporting them is not practical -- or even legal. There are many Hispanics in this country, multi-generational and most are U.S. citizens with unique needs, very much like the African American and Caucasian communities. That is why "just deport them" is not a practical, or even legal, solution.
06:38 PM on 05/04/2010
"Imagine a Latino family being stopped on the street and asked to show their identification papers. Nine times out of ten, the children will be United States citizens with the same rights as your child, or any other child you know."

But what about their parents. If someone is here ILLEGALLY they need to go home. If their children are CITIZENS then they have a tough choice to make. That's not my problem. ALL ILLEGAL ALIENS no matter where they come from, what language they speak, what color they are, and who they are related to need to GO BACK HOME! And that might mean that they have to take their US citizen children with them. That was their choice when they came here ILLEGALLY!
Retired man still active..
06:30 PM on 05/04/2010
Everyone knows by logic and reason that no one is going to deport 12 or 20 million people. But something has to be done and why not use common sense and realize that as long as we keep putting it of it will only get worse. Also the problem of illegal immigration will never be solved by entrenched groups demonstrating, screaming racism, and indulging in histarics. First, the border would have to be very effectively closed even before a plan to begin a process of fixing the current mess could be put into place. In order to insure that no ones rights are violated in an orderly manner give notice that everyone in the country illegally has 90 days to register. Then another 90 days to collect and present records from their home country to insure proper and adaquite identification. In the new process a law should be in place to make it a felony to be in the countery illegally, be up front it should be made known that a felony record from their home country will result in deportation, and that a felony record due to a crime or crimes commited in the United States while in the country illegally will result in deportation.
Retired man still active..
06:32 PM on 05/04/2010
Pass E-verify and make it mandatory for employers too within 180 days verify the status of their employees and make the failure to comply subject to harsh fines and penilties. Employers who find or have illegal immigrants on the payroll could inform them of the chance to to come out of the shadows. Employers could aid these employees in the process of comming out of the shadows if no criminal background exists. After the 180 days period anyone not comming forward would be felons under the law and subject to deportaion upon discovery. Those who abide by this law with nothing to hide here or in the home country would benifit. Just thought I'd throw in some reason and make a suggestion since all I hear is bantering name calling which means the problems we face wil continue to grow.
10:48 AM on 05/05/2010
They're "...felons under the law..." right now!! They're here Illegally!! How about if we treat them the same way Mexico treats illegals. That seems fair, doesn't it?
06:38 PM on 05/04/2010
The illegals can be deported, by self-deportation. We can set a deadline and order all those in the country illegally to return home. We don't have to do it. The penalties for missing the deadline would be severe, such as permanent banishment from ever returning, as a guest worker, legal immigrant, or even to visit. Most would go by themselves. We can then go after the rest.
The reason this has to be done is because if we let them stay -another "one time" amnesty-we will get millions more, all waiting for America to cave in agiain. You way would not solve the problem, only extend it to the great detriment of our country.
The illegals have to be sent home. We've done it before. It should never have been allowed to get to this point. No politician is going to tell me, "Well, the problem is so big we can't do anything about it. It's over-accept it. We will never be sovereign again." Not on your life!
06:29 PM on 05/04/2010
The fact that the "columnist" said that the law allows police to arrest anyone who "looks like" and illegal immigrant is more evidence of race bating.

This law is not racist. This law is made to kick out people who are here illegally. Measures have been added so that appearance is not an indicator on who to arrest.

This story has just become an excuse for the media to race-bait.
06:27 PM on 05/04/2010
I am glad this article raises these important points:

"the fact that 92% of Latino children in this country are United States citizens. These young Americans are going to carry the burden of this policy for many years to come."


"As a country we need to think about how the policies and laws we adopt will affect our country's future workers, taxpayers, parents, voters, and leaders."

This is very true. This law is NOT just about undocumented immigrants because it will affect everyone, citizen or not, whom officials "reasonably" suspect of being illegal. (See "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person."

We need to have this dialogue now because, as the authors state, the children growing up in this country and living with this law are our future economy drivers.
06:27 PM on 05/04/2010
this is a goofy article....its premise is 100% wrong.....It conjures up images of latino families out on picnics on sunday afternoons, and then hostile cops swoop down and demand their citizenship papers.....The new Arizona law isn't about randomly asking latino looking people for their papers.

Cops have to already be involved with someone for something other than their possible immigration status, and then, afterwards, they can use reasonable suspicion to begin to enquire about their status...
it appears that the Left and a few others are either deliberately misleading the public about this law, or opponents of the law are dimwits.
06:32 PM on 05/04/2010
bleeding hearts stop at the border.
as a young man I said I'd never get old an didn'
06:26 PM on 05/04/2010
Ladies you make me laugh! I know many many illegals in San Diego. Half the men have other families and Children in Mexico. With you logic why would we arrest a simple bank robber if he has a family. Although the argument is correct about educating the 92% it still solves no problem if they just continue to come here. I know you probably think every citizen in the world deserves to come here for the Opportunity to improve. You want to ignore all laws and start from here! B.S.
religion, ideology, partisanship are delusional
06:24 PM on 05/04/2010
"by 2035, one-third of all children in the United States will be of Latino ancestry"

With all due respect, if they want to be like "real" American Catholics, they'll ignore the Pope and use birth control. I suspect another third will be Mormon.
06:21 PM on 05/04/2010
Why is it so hard for people to understand this law. It "allows" police to simple ask for proof of citizenship after a CRIME is committed. It does not mean that police will do it. Its illeage to text and drive in Phoenix, and police don't stop people texting and driving. It looks good, but nothing will come over it. The federal gov't is not doing anything about the issue. Arizona is trying to protect its own.
12:35 PM on 05/05/2010
Not only if a "CRIME is committed," but even if someone who doesn't like them calls the police on them. That would still be considered "lawful contact" under the law.
05:23 PM on 05/04/2010
Nonsense. The law does not require the police stop people who look Hispanic. Shame on you.
As for the children, if they are the children of illegal immigrants, then I assume they will go with their parents if the parents are deported. If these kids are citizens, they can certainly come back when they are adults. Would you seperate them from their families? Shame again.
These situations were created by the illegal immigrants themselves. They knew what they were doing and they knew what chances they were taking. The have no business being here or having children here, children they hope to use as anchor babies. This is an abuse of America.
All the illegals should be sent home, and the authors should spend their thinking about American childrenand the children of legal immigrants.
The problem is illegal immigration and the unjust burdens that it dumps on America. The problem is not legal immigrants, Hispanics, or even their children
Playing the "children" card is as bad as playing the race card. We have to stop being sappy and draw the line and enforce our laws.
05:45 PM on 05/04/2010
Thanks alex61---you said EVERYTHING I was going to say! Are there no Editors at HP? I noted the flat out LIE starting out this article too. Sick. And children of LAWBREAKERS have to live with the consequences of their parents decisions. Period.
06:03 PM on 05/04/2010
Thanks-and keep posting on this issue.
My micro-bio is a desolate wasteland
06:43 PM on 05/04/2010
ah, so if you rob a convenience store, your children get to do time with you?
religion, ideology, partisanship are delusional
06:28 PM on 05/04/2010
You are an AZ police officer commanded by the law and your chief to arrest illegals. You may even have a quota, like for speeding tickets.

Now: how do YOU tell if someone is an illegal immigrant?
Remember that AZ's governor was asked that, and she could not answer.

BTW they don't stop "Hispanic" which means Spanish-speaking.
They stop "Latinos", who are mostly of Native American blood.
I learned this, living in the "barrios" of Albuquerque.

This is racism: whites against Native Americans.
The same racism is practiced in Mexico, which is why they come here.
06:41 PM on 05/04/2010
Bull chit. I'll tell you what is bad-race-baiting. Race-baiters are the worst. We should deport them.
11:30 PM on 05/04/2010
If the blood these Native Americans have is Aztec, they still don't belong in the U.S. Southwest. They belong in Mexico.