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farmilyman
everything is illusion
01:25 AM on 07/08/2010
They do whatever the GOP wants them to do. Now they are even bringing their weapons to church and are against environmentalists.
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ramsha
12:25 AM on 07/08/2010
Why not? Christianity started with the Torture of Jesus.
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12:22 AM on 07/08/2010
Can Christians live with torture?
Not real ones.
04:55 AM on 07/08/2010
No "True Scotsman" fallacy.
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Tulka2
Solidarity. Courage. Humor.
12:18 AM on 07/08/2010
Alyssa Peterson, a devout Mormon. I will remember and honor her name.

No one who participates is a Christian or any other spiritual thing. You might ask if chaplains are allowed to visit? How should they react? Are they just glad to have access like the embedded press?
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mountain man col
My Wordpress site is "reasoningpolitics"
12:13 AM on 07/08/2010
To answer the question posed by the title: Yes, Christians can live with torture. They lived with torture officially mandated by the church for over 800 years. Think about that for a minute. Remember everything you know about American history. Everything that happened from the Constitution to today. Then multiply that time period by four. Thats how long torture was sanctioned by Christianity.

Torture was used by Christians on other Christians for disagreeing with mainstream orthodoxy. It was used on people of other faiths, Muslims, Jews, and a variety of Pagan faiths. It is very interesting to see how the leadership justified torture particularly the logic involved. There were various justifications, but they all stemmed from passages in the bible.

If the most important thing in life is to convert people to Christianity (especially your version) than hurting those who you perceive to hinder than is easily justified to a Christian.
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Weirdo
It's a Wall Street government
10:51 PM on 07/07/2010
We should absolutely fight against torture. But, wasn't it the Christian god who supposedly tortures naked souls in Hell forever?
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wandering girl
grownup
11:17 PM on 07/07/2010
no, that's the Christianist god.
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Weirdwriter
11:25 PM on 07/07/2010
No, that's a myth perpetuated by zealots.
11:55 PM on 07/07/2010
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." - Mat 5:29

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Mat 13:40

"The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile...the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulpher. This is the second death." - Rev 21:8
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Weirdo
It's a Wall Street government
12:46 AM on 07/08/2010
It is?
10:44 PM on 07/07/2010
Nice sentiment in the article but where was this sentiment 7 years ago when the Bush administration was openly and publicly arguing that their torture regime was only enhanced interrogation. Where was the outrage from the religious community when waterboarding and sleep deprivation and being threatened with dogs and freezing temperatures and mock executions were all just some kind of mild mannered fun. A day late and a dollar short, but that's to be expected.
11:36 PM on 07/07/2010
There were many churches who spoke against torture at that time. Research it and you will find it to be true. They just aren't the churches the media likes to highlight.
10:15 PM on 07/07/2010
Christians not only live with torture, they were practically created by it. There is a certain divine irony in a religion which fetishizes the suffering of its primary deity but has consistently implemented torture or the threat of torture as its primary means of conversion: either in a promised afterlife or in the chambers of an inquisition, a witch trial, or slavery. Christianity without torture is little more than Buddhism.
11:39 PM on 07/07/2010
Oh boy, this board sure attracts more anti-Christians than anti-torture folks.

You are cherry picking history to fit in with your views.
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8arrows
Crushing my enemies and driving them before me
01:56 AM on 07/08/2010
He is? Really? The cross that Christians have chosen as their principle holy symbol was a tool of torture and execution.

It is, however, foolish to talk about all of those past problems Christianity had with tolerating other people. I much prefer more recent quotes.

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
--George Bush Sr. to a reporter August 27, 1988, while serving as vice-president and running for President

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed."
--Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, speaking of doctors who perform abortions, in an address to the U.S. Taxpayers Alliance, 8/08/95

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/quotes.htm

I would like to agree with the site's disclaimer that these are not majority Christian views, but these are the ones I hear. I beseech those who claim otherwise to raise your voices and shout down the hatemongers.
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ImmanuelGoldstein
Founder of the "Brotherhood"
02:13 AM on 07/08/2010
So you are telling me all that stuff he's referencing didn't happen?
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Weirdwriter
12:11 AM on 07/08/2010
Sigh. Yeah, yet another person who thinks torture, persecution of nonbelievers, and other evils began with Christians and are mostly their fault, too.
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ImmanuelGoldstein
Founder of the "Brotherhood"
02:12 AM on 07/08/2010
Nobody said it began with christians. But they certainly did bugger-all to end it.
10:12 PM on 07/07/2010
Obviously they can.
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mjeffn
Freedom's just another word 4 nothing left to lose
08:08 PM on 07/07/2010
Of they can, and do. They even take their guns to church.
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08:14 PM on 07/07/2010
It is now legal in Louisiana
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MatthewRobertson
I'm 26. I'm gay. I like film. I care about shit.
10:20 PM on 07/07/2010
I know! I wasn't too shocked by it though.
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HeevenSteven
20 Minutes into the future.
10:42 PM on 07/07/2010
Funny that they feel it necessary..wary of their Christian brethren, eh?...
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NWBrunette
Blessed Girl
07:47 PM on 07/07/2010
Honest Christians - those who have an actual understanding of the faith - can't. But Christianistas - those who misuse the faith for their own fear-driven ends - certainly can.
08:37 PM on 07/07/2010
Another example of the "No True Scotsman" Logical Fallacy, I think there are enough readers familiar with that ploy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman
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MatthewRobertson
I'm 26. I'm gay. I like film. I care about shit.
10:25 PM on 07/07/2010
I don't think this is the No True Scotsman fallacy because certain things EMBODY what it means to be a Christian. Being against torture should be one of them. (granted, people have different opinions). But you do not choose your ethnicity. No True Scottsman likes haggis...well, being a scottsman isn't dependant upon whether someone likes haggis or not. With Christianity, there are certain things that define it. For example: In order to be a Christian, you need to believe in Jesus. Well, someone who doesn't believe in jesus yet still claims to be a Christian is certainly not a true Christian.
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Weirdo
It's a Wall Street government
10:52 PM on 07/07/2010
Indeed.
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StealGeorgia
I am not boycotting the walrus
11:49 PM on 07/07/2010
Yeah, right. That's like saying "No true Wiccan would ever hex". If you can't hex you can't heal. Oops, did I just reveal something I shouldn't have? Awww.
07:44 PM on 07/07/2010
Regarding the ongoing notion that xtians who are pro-torture are "fake"/"blasphemous" christians, and the ones who abhor it are the "real" xtians.

By Valerie Tarico on HP:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/ugandan-atrocity-perversi_b_416749.html

Excerpt:

I find it ironic that anything evil done in the name of religion is a "perversion" or blasphemy -- and anything good, that's the real deal. It's an argument I hear over and over in response to my articles on the Daily Kos and Huffington Post...

It is not the perversion of religion that is playing itself out in Islamic jihad or Evangelical homophobia. It is religion, period -- once face of religion to be sure, but the real deal. It is the timeless face of god-worship that is tribal and intolerant and willing to kill -- as religion always has been under the right circumstances of time and place...

Both good and bad consequences of "faith" are the direct products of the agreement we make with each other that it's okay to believe things on paltry evidence, the kind that would never stand up in court, the kind that would never guide the surgeon's knife. When, in the embrace of belief, we entrust ourselves to authority, sacred texts and our own intuitions, we are freed from the dull left-brain constraints of everyday life. But we also become unaccountable to reason and evidence, unaccountable to universal ethics like the Golden Rule. Faith gives us mysticism AND murder.
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jeffneumanlee
pastor, writer, activist
02:06 AM on 07/08/2010
All values, like the Golden Rule, cannot be proven. All are accepted as a choice; our choices are subjective from any perspective.

Faith is our human act, conscious or unconscious, of proceeding into the future with our presuppositions of what is good (our values). Whenever a couple of people get together to talk about their values they create a language. As they attempt to enlarge the conversation, that language begins a process of abstraction which is a two edged sword: a necessary condition for human community and the increasing loss of the languageā€™s ability to speak to the exact condition of individuals. In time, the language becomes subject to abuse. Different levels of maturation will understand it in ways which are appropriate to that level of maturation. (And remember, not everyone grows up.) Different cultures, even at their highest levels, express that language within the confines of the imagination of that culture.

I'm just trying to describe. I believe that it's a false dichotomy between something based in "faith" and science, as if faith were always evil and science always good.

However, when someone refuses to see or is somehow blinded to what is there, it can be stated that their values language is inaccurate. Not every language is as good as any other. Languages are tested against reality. Better languages help people to see.

But why live? And what is real life? As you subjectively answer that question you begin to define your own religion.
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PlayTOE
Morals evolved due to cooperative group living
07:07 PM on 07/07/2010
R Cizik is quite correct in recognizing torture as immoral.
He is very wrong in thinking this is biblical teaching. The Christian God had deliberately set up a repentance and forgiveness system that involved his son being tortured. Christians are required to accept the torture of Jesus as being done to their benefit.

Torture is wrong.
This recognition comes from our morality, (rules of group behavior) which is evolving as we become a larger group.
Morals do not come from the bible or any other religious source despite the claims of persons like R Cizik.
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07:31 PM on 07/07/2010
Excellent post, Toe
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SpaceboySD
"Free To Be You And Me" Is My Bible
06:32 PM on 07/07/2010
Can they live with it?!? That practically invented it!
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Weirdwriter
06:42 PM on 07/07/2010
Human history did not begin with the rise of Christianity as an organized faith. Neither did torture.

And if you want to claim "Christians are responsible for most of it," or some such silly thing, do try to back it up with some verifiable evidence that people who have called themselves Christian have the lion's share of the blame, as opposed to the many, many other regimes in history throughout the world that have also utilized persecution, torture and murder of millions.
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Weirdwriter
06:53 PM on 07/07/2010
FYI, Spaceboy, as a journalist I don't recognize Wikipedia as a reliable source, in general, and neither should anyone else who is doing serious research.

Wikipedia may be OK for a start, but nothing is vetted and the authors of the entries are anonymous.
09:15 PM on 07/08/2010
If you had read the story, which plainly you did not, you would see where one interrogator, a Mormon, killed herself rather than continue with the interrogation. She could not be "two people".

I had expected that some of you would say she is not a Christian and in that manner continue your hatred for Christians while admiring the resolve of a Mormon to not torture. I think it would have been better for her to simply refuse, but that leads to court martial and evidently she chose not to face that either.

Those of you that accept that Mormons are Christian have pretty solid proof against your accusations that Christians are all about torture.
05:44 PM on 07/07/2010
I stopped reading at "To the Christian, torture is always wrong." Unless it's the eternal torment of nonbelievers in Hell. Then it's God's justice.
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ProfessorDuh
06:02 PM on 07/07/2010
Good point.
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FrAntonyH
Progressive cleric
06:31 PM on 07/07/2010
I agree with your point. I would also add that it is not necessary to believe such nonsense to be a Christian. Rev. Cizik was not addressing that point in his article. Perhaps he should sometime. His point was that Christians and all people of faith should rise up and demand an end to torture...plain and simple. You would think this a no-brainer, but, unfortunately, it is not.