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brokerthanu
all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
03:47 PM on 07/16/2010
Just sharing,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgQdZgojOFI
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03:37 PM on 07/16/2010
A lot of you are of the same reasoning mind of the Romans that persecuted Jesus because you didn't understand him. You are the same as the Pharos that because they did not believe as the Hebrews they persecuted them. You now turn back history to repeat it once more with your misguided educations and misunderstandings. You quote things you've never read and you seek to anger those you do not understand by name calling, disrespecting and antagonizing. We who are secure in our beliefs are comfortable that you are secure in yours and it is not an affrontage to us. However we will keep attempting to show you our way whether you agree with it or not but at least you should know why. To be insultive and display hatefulness is beneath everyone who calls themselves civilized. That is not bound to following one religion or the other or none at all.
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05:27 PM on 07/16/2010
"However we will keep attempting to show you our way whether you agree with it or not..."

And in return for giving you a hearing, may we assume that you will be equally as receptive to those who will argue that you are wrong?
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Alex Young
10:12 PM on 07/16/2010
considered yourself fortunate to be beheaded by a moderate muslim.
at least they explain to you the reason for your beheading.

however, i recommend avoiding those guys in white sheets that burn crosses on your lawn before they lynch you.

at all cost, avoid peasants approaching with pitchforks and torches.
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03:02 PM on 07/16/2010
That is their most famous argument: Immigrants are a threat to their social welfare system. What a ridiculous, fact-free lie! http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/3688

Even right-wingers know that it is FACT that immigrants pay more into the social security system than they take out. In fact the EU Commission states that the EU need an immigrant inflow as the population declines. http://www.europeanideasnetwork.com/files/2025_en.pdf

This is one of the most ridiculous, xenophobic from this uneducated political group.
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patches12
04:56 PM on 07/16/2010
Who the hell is talking about social security??? This guy is worried about his culture being erased.. and don't think for a second that if Muslims became the majority in the Netherlands, they wouldn't erase it.. they would in a NY second

this is not a idle accusation... look at Christianity and other religions how they are being persecuted in Muslim countries... its an outrage!!
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Alex Young
07:23 PM on 07/16/2010
all religions are a platform from which to spout intolerance, hatred, and divisiveness.
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05:26 PM on 07/16/2010
*This is one of the most ridiculous, xenophobic arguments from this uneducated political group.

Now they try to turn the EU into the Middle East, with their populism, banning non-Christian religions because they try to defend made-up values that nobody holds on. People vote in frustration for those far-right populists because they are not happy with the ruling parties. After the crisis these tr0llz will go back into their holes.
02:46 PM on 07/16/2010
I want to build Synagogues and Hindu Temples in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

Until Muslims fight for those rights, they have to stay quiet. Really.
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BlackWidowPilot
"Fu! Rin! Ka! Zan!"
03:01 PM on 07/16/2010
Not in the United States of America they do not, nor in any other democratic society founded upon the principle of the rule of law and freedom of speech.

The moment you silence one group for no other reason than you disagree with their religion or politics, you have begun the long slide down the slippery slope to tyranny.

Leland R. Erickson

Citizen

PROTESTant
03:14 PM on 07/16/2010
So BlackWidowPilot, it is not clear. Do you support efforts to open Muslim countries to , non-Muslim religious proselytizing? Yes or no?
03:22 PM on 07/16/2010
I guess Germany banning the Nazi party and everything affiliated with it is bad for democracy too.
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patches12
04:52 PM on 07/16/2010
Yea.. we bend over backwards to accomodate the Muslims in the West.. try building a church or synagogue in in a Muslim country... just try it...
05:23 PM on 07/16/2010
in turkey, there are many churches and synagogues, we prohibited the use of hagia sophia as a place of worship for muslims as it might be perceived to represent a muslim conquest of a christian temple, by the christians.
03:45 AM on 07/17/2010
This is ridiculous. I used to live in Jordan; plenty of churches there. Oh, and Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine -- pretty much anywhere there is a Christian population in the Levant. There are also churches all over North Africa and Turkey. Oh, and did we mention Iraq? Iraq, too.
02:44 PM on 07/16/2010
Don't you love it when they taling about individual Iiberty and free speech and what not when it is profitable for them but they would deny that to non Muslims when it is not so profitable to them in their own countries?

Don't expect from others what you would deny others. PERIOD!
03:45 PM on 07/16/2010
Who is you, they, them and others here?

For example, I am a Muslim from Pakistan. I want to have all its citizens equal rights, build churches, temples, centres for discussing adverse impact of religion on humanity, and what have you. However, if a small violent minority is holding that country hostage, how is it my fault? Why should extremists like Geert and you be stopping me to come over to the West? Why are you guys talking about collective punishment and generalizations?

However, I have my reasons to believe that you have an anti-Pakistan and pro-India agenda. Your comments on other topics prove that. The only reason to malign Muslims is to actually score points against Pakistan. The only other ethnic group to gain from thrashing Muslims is Israeli Jews. By maligning Islam and Muslims, these two segments gain directly by gaining support on their instance on Palestine and Kashmir. However, this is a myopic viewpoint, because if its anti-Muslim rants today, tomorrow its going to be anti-Jewish and anti-Hindu chants. So be ready!
06:48 PM on 07/16/2010
As long as Pakistanies accept their Army/ISI (which is nothing more than terr0rist organization), there are no innocent Pakistanies.. you all are merely waiting for the profit that you seek from the terr0r activities of the ":minority" (The Pakistan Army/ISI)/
06:50 PM on 07/16/2010
The very foundation of the Islamic republic of Pakistan is based on intolerance twoards plurality and secularism and respect for other faiths.
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patches12
04:58 PM on 07/16/2010
More common sense... free speech, tolerance, live and let live .. all part of the American culture.. .

none of these are allowed in Islam.. and that is what Geert is worried about!
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ThaGovna
I walk on water, eat bullets, and poop ice cream.
02:31 PM on 07/16/2010
You all can say what you want, but of all the religions I know of in 2010, only one has followers actively participating in a holy war. A war, I must add, in which it's soliders specifically target what we consider civilians be they American or their very own countrymen...
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BlackWidowPilot
"Fu! Rin! Ka! Zan!"
02:38 PM on 07/16/2010
The entire religion? Most of that religion's adherents? Appealing to fear and ignorance is not a cogent argument, citizen.

Not now. Not next week. Not ever.

Leland R. Erickson

Citizen

PROTESTant
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ThaGovna
I walk on water, eat bullets, and poop ice cream.
04:04 PM on 07/16/2010
Well, what I wrote was obviously interpreted by you to mean the entire religion. "Has followers" could mean 1 or 1 million. If the words "entire" and "most" is what you got outta my post, then that's what you got outta my post. I'm sure that really [is] what you wanted to get out of it.

As I said, say what you want, but I only know of one religion who has followers that think they are on the right track by flying planes into buildings.

People have been killed all over the world, by the hands of what we call terrorists. These terrorists are not all of middle eastern decent.

There is one chief thread among them all: Islam.

They seem to have our values, simply because they are not [of] Islam.

What about the fear and ignorance in that citizen...?
04:28 PM on 07/16/2010
A sufficiently large movement within the religion that the majority of leaders (such as they are) do little or nothing to denounce the movement or its adherents. Islamic terror is widespread and well-supported from within Islamic communities, and pretending that because the number of actual individuals within terrorist organizations are few in comparison to the group as a whole demonstrate a mind uninterested in shifting beyond first gear.

Anti-American protests are widespread throughout the Islamic world, and (supposedly) cheers went up in Palestine when word of the September 11th attacks arrived. The environment of the Islamic world and the philosophy presented to its followers fosters an environment of hatred and violence.

I don't hate Islam as a religion or any Muslim man or woman. But the religion as is currently practiced in far too many places is not about spiritualism, but rather promoting hatred.
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patches12
05:00 PM on 07/16/2010
Not only Westerners but other Muslims.. Look what Saddam, a Sunni, did to the Shia Muslims in Iraq.. hundreds of thousands tortured and murdered.. they are still uncovering mass graves over there!
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Alex Young
02:05 PM on 07/16/2010
we all need a better understanding.

perhaps, rereading the works of George Orwell would be helpful !!
03:31 PM on 07/16/2010
On Orwell. If Animal Farm Caliphate ever comes to pass in Europe, kiss your rock CD collection, scientific advances and 99.9% of public library books goodbye.
02:04 AM on 07/17/2010
there is no caliphate, not even in Muslim countries.

And by the way, go visit those countries and tell us how many of them really ban CDs or books or science labs?

As a matter of fact, it was under the enlightened caliphate that science, philosophy, and scholarship thrived and later became the foundation for the European renaissance.

Baghdad under the caliphate was probably a much more fun and interesting place than Baghdad today.
03:32 PM on 07/16/2010
Even bette-- for understanding r read the works of Ayman al-Zawahiri, Al Qaeda ideologue
Typical quotes:" “I say to you: that we are in a battle, and that more than half of this battle is taking place in the battlefield of the media,”
“I talk to you today about the blessed London battle {7/7}, which came as a slap in the face to the tyrannical Crusader British arrogance."
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Alex Young
04:28 PM on 07/16/2010
Occam123

why would i read the rantings of a madman?

better question why would you suggest that anyone read such hated?
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BlackWidowPilot
"Fu! Rin! Ka! Zan!"
09:28 PM on 07/16/2010
Go further. Read GOD'S TERRORISTS by Charles Allen (for a start) and get your facts straight as to the nature, beliefs, and scope of the scoundrels in Islam's woodpile.

Leland R. Erickson

Citizen

PROTESTant
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courtb
01:30 PM on 07/16/2010
Ahh, racism at it's finest. Why doesn't Wilder actually do something productive? If he's concerned about extremism (which he should be rather than just blaming the whole religion) he should form a political party that focuses on integrating these Muslim communities into society. There is a very basic reason that the Muslim and Arab community in the US has very little homegrown terrorism - economics. They are integrated into American society and are mostly middle class. In Europe, Muslim immigrants (youths especially) have trouble finding jobs due to an inability to speak the language and yes, due to racism. They are angry and much more susceptible to extremist indoctrination. Make them feel like they are actually citizens of their new country.
03:41 PM on 07/16/2010
"racism at it's finest."
Staggering lack of logic..
Fact:Muslims don't constitute a race.
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courtb
05:27 PM on 07/16/2010
Fine, Islamophobia. That is a childish response - I seem to recall a time not so long ago where European countries had political parties whose sole purpose were to be "anti-Jewish". I bet people argued Judaism wasn't a race then, either.
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01:58 AM on 07/17/2010
deeeep
but specious
01:30 PM on 07/16/2010
E.U. law should be passed that countries (especially Turkey and Saudi Arabia,currently flooding Europe with various Islamic missionaries) be required to allow equal amount of Christian and/or, Buddhist and/or Hindu and/or atheist prosletyzers into their own countries.
Those countries who refuse-- will be denied Euro entry visas for their missionaries,
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piul05
Are you looking at my ears?! (Mo-om!!!)
02:04 PM on 07/16/2010
Funny...I only get Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses knocking on my door...
03:42 PM on 07/16/2010
Lucky you, habib.
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patches12
05:08 PM on 07/16/2010
Yea.. and when was the last time one of them buried a woman up to her neck and threw bricks at her head for committing adultery?
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02:08 PM on 07/16/2010
DOnt count on it. They are anti everyreligion other than their own so bad tat they will probably foament riots that made the ones in paris look like a finger snap.
02:36 PM on 07/16/2010
I understad that most Islamic countries are too intolerant to alow other creeds into their countires. Hence the provision to ban those states who refuse this reciprocity law.
Europe would greatly benefit from either provision I proposed.
01:17 PM on 07/16/2010
Can someone post a link to the actual AP interview?
Even AP news site doesn't have it.
01:13 PM on 07/16/2010
An important lawmaker who needs 24-security and who cannot safely walk the streets in his own country(!) is making a push back against those who hunt him like an animal... what a giant surprise... it is not!
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Marc NL
47,3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
01:11 PM on 07/16/2010
I’ve read some of the comments and a lot of people seem to be stuck on the religious aspects of the mostly Muslim immigrant community in Holland. The fact that they have a different ideology is not really the problem. You can believe whatever you want in Holland the problems are much more of a practical nature. Older generations still don’t speak the language and need to have their children translate if there is a problem with the child at school…
The younger generations grow up in a society where almost anything is allowed. When they go home they return to an environment where the rules are completely different. I am sure it’s not easy and perhaps because of it we have immigrant teenagers with poor job expectations and are frustrated with their situation. (Crime rate is high with some of these groups)
This in return scares the heck out of older Dutch generations.
Point I am trying to make is that much people try to score easy points (on these forums) by pointing out the differences between religion A against religion B. The problems are more complex and more of a practical nature. Mr. Wilders has a very poor way of addressing these but he is one of the few that does. This may explain his success so far.
01:33 PM on 07/16/2010
Very god post, Marc. Faved.
I especially agree with your:"Mr. Wilders has a very poor way of addressing these but he is one of the few that does."
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BlackWidowPilot
"Fu! Rin! Ka! Zan!"
02:24 PM on 07/16/2010
Marc,

Wilders and his ilk address the same way IMHO that the far right wing of any body politic addresses any problems with immigrant communities, with appeals to ignorance, xenophobia, and blanket smears against an entire group for the misdeeds of the few.

The very sort of issues you raise are not unique to Holland; America has had her share of "growing pains" with various immigrant communities throughout our nation's history. How we chose to deal with these issues has varied from the positive to the downright racist; as the third generation descendant of immigrants from Scandinavia, I have some limited family history regarding the matter (lack of educational opportunities kept my great grandparents, grandparents, and a number of uncles and aunts from ever rising above the status of "laborer").

For what it is worth to you, sir, Holland needs more constructive voices to address these issues than the likes of Geert Wilders and his ilk.

Leland R. Erickson

Citizen

PROTESTant
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piul05
Are you looking at my ears?! (Mo-om!!!)
03:03 PM on 07/16/2010
Well said.
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Marc NL
47,3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
03:19 PM on 07/16/2010
I agree. We need more level headed discussion about this issue. I don't think Mr. Wilders is the right person for this. Personally I don't like the things he says and wants.

He is a populist, he mixes a little bit of truth with a lot of what people want to hear.

Still I hate the fact that a lot of these arguments always gravitate towards the extreme. If you bring up immigration or integration you are racist etc etc.

I just wish people would stop for a moment get off there high horse and consider the real problems that needs to be addressed.
01:00 PM on 07/16/2010
Lots of comments addressing the various angles of this issue. Whats horrifying to me is how acceptable it is to openly promote hate for 2 billion of the worlds population. Its even become ok in the USA for people to be against mulsim centers in NYC with out being ridiclued for being anti muslim. Maybe we should coin a term similar to anti semetic but for muslims. Wilder is a joker saying he hates isalm but not mulsims. Thats like saying I hate Ireland but not the Irish.
And on the sharia law thing, please do some research on which countries actually have Sharia law as their end all. Answer is non. Some applicable aspects are used but generally you are dealing with modern laws that even appeal to western sensabilities.
01:19 PM on 07/16/2010
The generally accepted term is Islamophobia.
Some people refer to it as Islamo-realism
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04:50 PM on 07/16/2010
I hated Soviet Communism and admired the Russian people. Get it?
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12:47 PM on 07/16/2010
It is the the same as our religious right. A small group of radical, hateful, freaks and their followers. I would like to see Mr. Wilders work toward educating against following radical hate mongers in all factions and not villanize the Islamic group as a whole.
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Alex Young
01:35 PM on 07/16/2010
AND they and all religious extremists are dangerous to america for they preach hatred, fear , and
they seek to divide us and keep us powerless to see and oppose the real evils.

their appeal is to the ignorant and the key is education.
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ThaGovna
I walk on water, eat bullets, and poop ice cream.
02:12 PM on 07/16/2010
Except "our" religious right are not participating in a holy war. Nor are you seeing Baptists killing Catholics while they pray because they interpret their religion a bit differently.

It's not the same.

This is 2010, not the dark ages...

What you're asking of Mr. Wilders is what you should be asking of people like Ayhan Tonca who [in my small opinion] aren't doing enough to push back on the extreme elements of the Islamic religion and culture.

While I don't by any means 100% with the way Mr. Wilders operates, at least he has some friggin' courage to stand up.

My wife, a Nederlander, absolutely hates this guy. She has many Muslim friends originally from Turkey.

I don't exactly like the guy, but I read a little quote from him that gave me pause, and has kept me from outright denouncing the guy.

The quote, from him while debating with a Muslim and is here paraphrased, was "Why is it I have to debate while wearing a bullet-proof vest and not you?".

It's not the same.
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03:13 PM on 07/16/2010
""our" religious right are not participating in a holy war"
I disagree. We are in two holy wars brought upon us by the poster boy of religious right GWB.

"Nor are you seeing Baptists killing Catholics"
So the killings of Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, though few and far between
anymore, do not count?

In the end I think you and I agree. We are just coming at it from different angles.
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Marc NL
47,3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
03:54 PM on 07/16/2010
That about sums it up for me too ThaGovna.

I don't like the guy, don't even agree with almost everything he says but something needs to be done.
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SadButWiser
11:40 AM on 07/16/2010
I think the world seems to have forgotten that almost all the Muslim countries have been occupied by mostly Christian nations for over 100 years. And during that periods hundred of thousands of Muslims were killed including by his countrymen in Indonesia. Compare that with the current presence of Muslims in the West, and Mr. Wilders should consider himself lucky that he is not living under occupation.
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MarcEdward
likes all cats more than most people
12:16 PM on 07/16/2010
He'd probably give you a lecture about the White Man's burden
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12:51 PM on 07/16/2010
actually I watch his movie he made called FITNA, He is anti Colonialism and anti-immigration, He says we should defend the "christian values" but is an admitted atheist. Before, being to critical of him, check out the violence at dutch citizens for being critical of Islam ( the same people are critical of Christianity). the Islamic Extremists communities lack of tolerance doe not fit in well with Amsterdam's open minded views. There is a real culture clash going on. He does not defend the crusades so you are all jumping to the wrong conclusion. What he stands for free press, free speech, anti-violence. and the Sharia people are opposed to that.
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Alex Young
12:54 PM on 07/16/2010
''if'' was kipling's best work.

other that than, he is rightfully known as a misogynist and imperialist.
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02:11 PM on 07/16/2010
And 1300 years before that, WAAAYYYY Back before even the crusades, Muslims have occupied Europe only to be pushed back by Charles martel and Charlamange. BTW the holyland was origianlly Christian.
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02:13 AM on 07/17/2010
originally?

no "annointing" happened for 1,000 years.
12:55 PM on 07/17/2010
Actually the Holy Land was originally pagan!