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Occupy Wall Street: At Zuccotti Park, Conflict Arises Among Occupiers

Posted: 10/22/11 12:48 PM ET

Events at Zuccotti Park, the epicenter of the Occupy Wall Street movement in Lower Manhattan, have become increasingly dramatic in recent days, as egos have clashed, visions competed, and the unity of the protesters has been questioned.

The debate over whether or not the protesters should draft a list of demands led to a New York Times piece that dominated a recent General Assembly discussion. Along with complaints from area residents and continued pressure from the city about cleanliness and noise, growing concerns about safety and theft on the premises, and the proposal of a Spokes Council which for two nights in a row failed to gain consensus from the GA, it has been a long week at Zuccotti Park.

The most vocal members of the movement will say quite clearly there are no "leaders," and the avoidance of that term has led to what some view as a lack of direction for Occupy Wall Street in New York. Differences among the occupiers are inevitable -- and as many working groups will tell you, it has been difficult to get things done.

There's no shortage of talking, and you never know who will take hold of the People's Mic. Persuasive speakers on all sides can give General Assembly meetings a roller-coaster feel. Someone always seems to oppose a budget proposal, or have a strong dissenting opinion on something that seems on its way to sure passage. Just one voice joining the debate at the last minute has the power to sway the entire discussion.

With every proposal, there are questions and there are concerns, and the process continues and continues. The facilitators say numerous times the group has strayed off process. Questions are sometimes ignored for being "off-topic" even when they aren't, time constraints are cited and frustrations boil over. Occupiers curse, speak out of turn and sometimes they just keep on talking, despite "Mic Check" calls over them. Those on all sides alienate each other.

This is what I have witnessed at Zuccotti the past few nights. On Thursday, the matter at hand was a proposal from Pulse -- the group of drummers -- for $8,000 for new musical instruments. They say they hoped to secure the funding after a $5,000 handmade drum was sabotaged and destroyed during a rain storm. They say that because they've been there since Day 1, they deserve the funding more than anyone.

"We have worked for you! Appreciate us!" the leader of the proposal shouted angrily to the GA in response to voices of dissent.

After a long debate, the proposal was tabled. No funding for the drummers. After the meeting, one drummer cursed and yelled at GA members for their decision. He confronted another occupier and the two shouted obscenities back and forth; a physical fight nearly erupted but a peacemaker came between them.

On Friday, a proposal for a Spokes Council -- a group led by cluster representatives that would make budgetary and logistical decisions -- was debated at length. The General Assembly meeting Friday night lasted from 7 p.m. to 1:30 a.m., even though they're officially only scheduled to last until 9 p.m. and quiet hours are supposed to begin after 11 p.m. The NYPD decided not to disrupt the assembly, and the People's Mic quieted as a sign of respect for the final two and a half hours.

But those two and a half hours were just as tense as the drummers' proposal. General Assembly members complained that they would lose power if a Spokes Council was formed, while facilitators and speakers for the working group behind the proposal insisted that the council would decentralize power in a necessary way. They argued that anyone could be part of working groups and clusters, which would each have a representative on the Spokes Council. One prominent organizer made the point that there would even be a group for people not in a working group, so everyone would be included in some way.

The concerns nonetheless continued. Occupiers raised their voices louder, saying they felt disenfranchised and confused. A two-sided document jam-packed with text contained all pertinent information about the proposal, but only five minutes were set aside to read it. "This is too confusing to read in five minutes," said one occupier. "We need more time," said another.

The two sides went back and forth. "This is a living document! It can be added to, amended to," a speaker pleaded. Another said the proposal has been in the works for three weeks, "workshopped to death," and they did not want to draw the process out longer. As the debate continued, those behind the proposal conceded, "No system is perfect."

In the end, the proponents of the Spokes Council, which included several working group members and a Finance Committee representative, caved to the dissenters -- even after making a significant amendment that would allow the General Assembly to dissolve the Spokes Council at any time. The occupiers were granted more time to consider the document; they now have five days before the GA reconvenes for a vote on Wednesday.

That decision was made after 16 blocked the proposal, meaning they were prepared to leave the movement if it was passed in its current form. They gave many different reasons for opposing it.

But an occupier who favored the Spokes Council wasn't convinced, saying in disbelief after the discussion ended, "That's it? What have we been doing the last 5 hours?"

The conflicts among occupiers can't continue forever, and the most passionate organizers know this. They're planning to "Occupy Central Park" next month -- on 11-11-11 -- and hope the move will bring the protesters together again and unite them with their counterparts across the world.

But there's no telling what will happen at Zuccotti Park before then. And the cold of winter lingers.

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NEW YORK, NY - OCTOBER 17: Pedestrians watch as people affiliated with the 'Occupy Wall Street' movement play music at Zuccotti Park in the Financial District near Wall Street on October 17, 2011 in New York City. The activists have been gradually converging on the financial district over the past month to rally against the influence of corporate money in politics among a host of other issues. The protests, which have no stated demands, have spread to other cities and a number of countries over the last week leading to hundreds of arrests as world leaders and police anticipate their next move. (Photo by Spencer Platt/Getty Images)

 

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Events at Zuccotti Park, the epicenter of the Occupy Wall Street movement in Lower Manhattan, have become increasingly dramatic in recent days, as egos have clashed, visions competed, and the unity of...
Events at Zuccotti Park, the epicenter of the Occupy Wall Street movement in Lower Manhattan, have become increasingly dramatic in recent days, as egos have clashed, visions competed, and the unity of...
 
 
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08:37 AM on 12/18/2011
direction get a law that says any person or persons that in office from govenor to presadent including congress that does not vote on the floor or pass a law we as a people vote for thay should be removed from office in a month and all powers to be suppended at once to bring the power of the people back to the people not to the thoughts of the politacal partys.
08:28 AM on 12/18/2011
direction had a thought for occ. put a bill up for vote that if any elacted person be it mayor to presadent including congress that does the opiset of what we as a people vote for thay are removed from office in a month and any abilty to pass a law or bill would be saspended untill there replacement is in office so we agin have a goverment of the people.
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Jeanette Schotl
10:43 AM on 10/27/2011
One of the group's signs had read, "end the wars" ... All our troops coming home from Iraq by the end of THIS year. How good is that? I don't care the reason, it's done, and I am so grateful.
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Jeanette Schotl
10:21 AM on 10/27/2011
Darn mobs, anyway. Wanting to end corruption, have jobs, homes; I don't know what's the matter with them
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v650
05:11 PM on 10/26/2011
Remember the Freedom Riders? They were the catalyst olf the Civil Rights movement? (Research it) People came from all over this great nation by bus, train and car to make a stand and they made a change. Yes, there will be infiltrators. I heard that the Federal Reserve is making a "facebook" page. :-0
04:35 PM on 10/26/2011
Infiltrators there certainly will be, but it's too easy to just blame them for everything. The challenges the movement faces now are all too predictable, and would have happened, provocateurs or no.

Direct democracy is a great system when it works. Everyone participates, what's not to like? It doesn't scale up well, that's what.

Consensus decision-making is a truly wonderful system when it works. No hurt feelings, creative solutions that everyone can agree with, yeah! Only, it scales even worse than direct democracy.

If you look at historical places where consensus decision-making has been the norm, the experience is clear: Even in ideologically homogenous groups like quaker monthly meetings, the only way it remotely works, is by denying a lot of people the franchise - or excommunicating them. The quakers historically had an extreme excommunication rate.

Same phenomenon you observe at Wikipedia. Decisions there are made by consensus, right? Only, consensus of people who matter, and every time you remotely disagree with something, you matter less.

Still, leaders are not the solution. OWS do not need another hero. Economic power isn't the only power that's unequally distributed and a barrier to political participation. Organizational power is another, and the people who manage to get themselves elected as leaders will be rolling in that kind of power.

The way direct democracy scales, is through sortition - drawing of lots. We must give up representation as individuals, and trust in random sampling (and regular rotation) to ensure that our interests are represented.
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WRH Mike Rivero
Humble and concise
10:53 AM on 10/26/2011
This is probably the work of paid infiltrators and disruptors, because this exact same thing happened to the peace movement during the Vietnam war and it turned out to have all been part of COINTELPRO.
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tteeghen
spare me the phony sanctimony
09:48 AM on 10/27/2011
paranoid much?
10:13 AM on 10/26/2011
No leaders? Isn't that anarchy? It is normal for groups of humans to have some structure and leaders. No need to be ashamed of that. Tea Party has leaders. Of course, they were co-opted by neer-do-wells and charlatans. You'll have to do better. Otherwise, your group will fall apart eventually and your purpose will be lost. Wall Street is just waiting for this. They have time. They're busy making those bonuses, remember?
What are you doing, anyway? What is your purpose? What do you want? You have to tell us something. Frankly, the 'Occupy' movement sounds like a good thing but I don't know much about you. Not much there to support yet.
Good luck, though.
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tteeghen
spare me the phony sanctimony
09:49 AM on 10/27/2011
seems to me according to the article the drum and fifeless corps want a $5,000 bailout. Exactly WHAT issues do they feel the need to protest about again?
09:53 AM on 10/26/2011
"A house divided against itself cannot stand"............So true.............Need to get behind one idea at a time.........Which one would fix most of the other problems?

........GET THE MONEY OUT OF POLITICS.......
07:03 PM on 10/25/2011
As I've said in other articles about this; they are little more than a disorganized mob, with no central goals or structure. Probably 1/3 of the people down there aren't even there for any other reason than just to be there. Unless they can come up with some sort of (for lack of a better term) centralized government or governing body, they'll never get anything accomplished (probably still won't even then). There are too many people, with too many gripes, all wanting to have something done about them. But nothing is going to come of this. Besides, don't at least most of these people have lives they should be responsibly getting back to?
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Jeanette Schotl
09:59 AM on 10/27/2011
Maybe these people lost everything they had. There is a huge list of issues and wrongs to address; if that makes them a mob, it's a rose by any other name. They'll figure out what they need. They are finally speaking up...the silent majority no longer.
01:25 AM on 10/28/2011
I see someone else read the recent Time magazine article. And I agree with you, many of these people have a genuine gripe that they feel they need to voice. The problem though, is that with no, or at least better, organization, they'll never get anything accomplished. Let's be serious for a moment though; not everyone down there "lost everything they had." A good number of them are just there to be rabble rousers. The rest know they're there for a reason, they're just not clear on what that reason is.
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BrainRagYell
Atheist, Democrat.
10:41 AM on 10/25/2011
Hrm... Conservatives still in a panic trying to define OWS.

Life is good.
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04:58 PM on 10/26/2011
Not at all..It isn't hard to figure out.
It's a lot of mostly younger people dissatisfied with the system,and have no idea on how to go about changing it.
A suggestion.Try organizing with stated goals, sway others to join,vote for people that will make those changes
Massing and chanting "down with Wall Street",breaking laws,and confronting the law isn't going to advance you goals.
09:13 AM on 10/25/2011
What these people seem to fail to realize, is that the issue is NOT capitalism, and the people they want to "fix" it (congress/the government) are the same people that run Wall St - it's a big cabal and they are not going to work against themselves. Obama has already received more $ from the banking and financial/hedge fund sector than all the Republicans combined...we don't have capitalism in this country. We have crony capitalism, which is not even close.

Let's be honest, the anger is understandable. But it's infuriating to so many of these protesters railing on YouTube against the free market, moaning how capitalism has pillaged the poor for the benefit of the rich.

Nothing could be further from the truth. There hasn't been a free market in money and banking for a century. The central bank / fractional reserve system is the biggest cartel in the history of economics. It's nothing but big government price-rigging.

How can anyone argue we have free markets when the price of money is set by decree? An unelected board of governors at the Federal Reserve simply decides the price of money, and that's that.

Nearly EVERYTHING in our credit economy is driven from this number-- mortgages, business purchases, trade finance, government spending... and it affects almost everyone on the planet. This is not a free market, it's an economic dictatorship.
10:29 AM on 10/26/2011
You can criticize Obama from taking money from bankers. That's how our system work in America and if you want to swim in the cesspool with everyone else you have to work the machine whether your on the left, right or in the center.
The problem in America is that the Congress and Senate do not act for the people but for those who put them in office - the people giving them money. It's inescapable. To change this, we would be asking the elected representatives to pull the rug out from under themselves and their backers, which they obviously won't do. So we have a conundrum, we elect representatives but they can't represent us.
We need to get all corporate money out of politics and I mean corporations, PACs, 501(c)s and the lot. We need an amendment that says that corporations are not citizens and do not have the rights of free speech that citizens do. We can't have a big company shouting so loud that no one else can be heard, like News Corp.
Both the Tea Party and Occupy are reactions to our disgust with all of this. The question is, how do we affect the kind of change we need if our officials won't?
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Edward Wilkes
Poet/Stage Actor
12:35 AM on 10/25/2011
Big problems here, and by the looks of it it will not get any better. The longer this unorganized protest with separate groups stay as they are they will accomplish either much less than what they would otherwise be able to accomplish as a single unit. On the other end of the equation (they may accomplish nothing but total discord among themselves, and nothing significant for the cause)

The drums should be put away. This should not be a circus or a carnival. They should assemble from among them the wisest and most informed --- one from each separate group to be their collective voice. Everyone does not have to speak or shout over another. Leave the speaking and drawing up of concise demands, to be presented by the assembly that has yet to created, so they can represent the entire throng of protestors as a whole!

The current congress we have cannot agree on anything. Do these people want better than that, or will they be the same as those that do not honor their voice? They should also not be naive as to think everyone there is for their collective cause, because traitors always lurk to destroy from within; in this case the opposition----(cops, wall-street people, government officials, etc.)
11:38 PM on 10/24/2011
A mass meeting of people discontent about nearly everything! Every body gets to complain and wonder where they are going to pee the next time they have to pee. Then complain that there aren't enough places provided for them to pee. It never occurs to them that if they weren't there, they wouldn't have that problem