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Dave Hackel

Dave Hackel

Posted: August 30, 2009 11:27 PM

Apparently Laws ARE Made To Be Broken


Chris Wallace recently gave Dick Cheney a forum to lecture about how Obama's Justice Department is making a horrible mistake in looking into things that were done during his administration. (It's also often referred to as the Bush administration, but I think we all know who was the marionette and who was the puppeteer.) Wonder of wonders, Cheney doesn't like this new practice of "looking backward." I'm guessing he'd like it a lot more if he were absolutely positive he couldn't be indicted.

Anyway, when asked specifically about the controversial C.I.A interrogation practices, Cheney said, "It was good policy. It was properly carried out and it worked very, very well."

Then Wallace asked, "So, even in these cases where they [the C.I.A interrogators] went beyond the specific legal authorization, you're okay with it?"

Cheney answered emphatically, "I am."

Then Chris Wallace went on to a different topic.

Now, had I been Chris Wallace, I think I might have asked another couple of questions.

I would have followed up with, "So, in your view, it's perfectly okay to break a law as long as it's one you disagree with?"

Cheney, I'm guessing, would have emphatically answered, "I do."

Then I might have asked, "So, let me get this straight. Is it okay for anyone to break a law they disagree with, or just you?"

Then, Cheney, I'd guess, would have taken umbrage at my impudence, grimaced, then started in on how his administration kept us safe for eight years.

Then I would have tried to keep myself from mentioning the now infamous and ignored "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S." memo and said, "Please, don't change the subject."

Because, you see, that's what Cheney always does. He says outrageous things about how he endorses the breaking of laws and reminds us to be afraid -- something none of us ever forget to be, especially when we hear his voice.

And, then, if anyone raises an eyebrow -- which too few people do -- he equates terrorists not attacking the United States with his administration breaking the law.

Did any of the Cheney administration's policies keep us safe? No way to absolutely prove that they did or didn't.

Have we not been attacked because the terrorists are very patient zealots? No way to know that for sure either.

And I'll even go out on a limb here, give the Cheney administration the benefit of the doubt, and say that they did what they did because they hoped they would be able to keep us safe.

But, I digress. The former vice president (really president) of the previous administration went on television and said that he was in favor of the C.I.A. going beyond specific legal authority. He endorsed breaking the law. And his interviewer chose not to point out that breaking the law makes one a criminal.

I'm not a Constitutional scholar, but I don't think it says anything about only upholding the laws you like.

We either have rules of law and ethical standards or we don't.

In Cheney's administration, I don't believe we did.

Now we're trying to get them back.

I, for one, hope we succeed.

But do you know what the worst fallout from Cheney's remarks will be? Now his daughter, Liz, will be out on the faux-pundit circuit defending them.

There ought to be a law.


 
 
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11:15 AM on 09/10/2009
I can't blame Dick Cheney for being upset. No one wants to be tried for war crimes.
11:12 AM on 09/03/2009
Where do I find these Dave Hackel comments in a thread? The links in three Huff Post emails tell me that they exist but don't point directly to them, so I can't find them.

'I'll be honest -- I'm not sure I understand your point. The Russians in Chechnya tortured but didn't waterboard so that means waterboarding isn't torture? If that's your point, I disagree

I don't care what kind of bow your put on it, torture is not only wrong it's against the law. If people torture under the name of religion -- any religion -- that's against the law, too....

All due respect, but I believe that "enhanced interrogation" is a term that was invented to excuse torture. Not sure how you can know there was "no permanent physical'
12:12 AM on 09/01/2009
It seems unlikely that Cheney will ever be led away in handcuffs, but the Attorney General's investigation does serve a useful purpose. However long it meanders along, it will keep Cheney's misdeeds in the public eye, and they'll be presented as what they are, rather than the patriotic acts Cheney would like us to believe they were. He'd probably rather hide out back in Wyoming, but at least for a while, Mr. Holder isn't going to let him. And the more Cheney defends himself... what's that thing about having a fool for an attorney?
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Dosadi
Political agnostic
06:17 PM on 08/31/2009
Unfortunately the people of this country are too dense to realize that nothing will happen to Cheney because he is one of the "boys." Our political leaders have put themselves above the law and snear at those who think otherwise. This is why Cheney is so vocal at a time he should be the most quiet. He knows that no one is going to do anything about it. He committed the crimes, got away with it and is now thumbing his noses at us. We voted in the Obama administration in hopes of reversing the sickness that pervaded our nation for 8 years. Cheney knows he will not be punished and feels like he is entitled to bring about the demise of the first black man elected presedent. Cheney is attacking Obama for "the good old boys" and he knows he will not be publicly stopped.
04:39 PM on 08/31/2009
It is easy to see that Dick Cheney is sooo afraid of what they are going to finally, and once and for all, release, that he is trying to get a head start on it. I am sure they will find out that he was totally immersed in all of it and giving orders for torture, etc. Bush is never seen or heard from and I am surehe too, is shaking in his boots as to what will be released. Prepare, Dick Cheney, at last all of this will hopefully come to light and you will be right in the middle of it. You have broken laws and there is no where to hide except beyond your tired old lies...
04:33 PM on 08/31/2009
Cheney is scary. He seems to be trying to persuade people that his administration's actions were ok. Cheney is less a problem than the many people who, for example, might have thought you were defending Obama when you pointed out that Fox news figures lie about what Obama says. Of course you were not defending Obama to point out that deception is not what we look for in a reporter. If you run across any of these people I hope they don't use the line, 'Both sides use lying.'
02:20 PM on 08/31/2009
There is nothing wrong with being willing to break a law one disagrees with, if one also is willing to pay the price. That is the essence of civil disobedience.

To the rhetorical question of whether it is okay to torture somebody in order to extract information allowing one to immediately save the lives of thousands of people at risk of attack, the answer is, if you are willing to be punished for torturing the person, go ahead and torture them.

Your punishment will be the price that must be paid in order for you to save thousands of people.
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Dave Hackel
02:58 PM on 08/31/2009
Interesting point. Cheney, though, does not hold himself to the standard you set forth. If he did, I might not agree with him but I'd at least be able to respect his stand. It always seems like rather than obeying or even respecting the law, Cheney wants to "be" the law. Thanks for your comment.
05:11 PM on 08/31/2009
Say you disagree with the law against abuse of animals. Your dog is terminally ill and you can't afford the price of euthanasia so you throw the dog off a fith floor balcony. The punishment will be three years in prison that is the price you pay to save $100 on a vet. Say you abuse children, the punishment will be the price you pay to cause the damage to the kids. I'll have to study civil disobedience to see if you are indeed correct.
09:40 PM on 08/31/2009
Don't say that I disagree with the laws against abuse of animals. Why would you put these examples in my mouth?

If anything, I believe the laws in North America have fallen behind international standards, stuck in a time warp and in need of updating, they are weak and ineffectual and allow all sorts of obvious cruelties that I disagree with to continue with impunity.

But, when the law catches up, and the chicken gets the right to a range, and the pig gets a right to sunshine, and if an old fashioned farmer was to disagree with the new law, in the last defense of the farmer's opinion, the farmer could invoke civil disobedience, disobey the law and accept punishment, which tests the resolve of all parties.

If we feel such a law is just, we will jail the farmer for disobeying the law. Or the farmer might convince us by disobeying the law that changes need to be made to the law. Or both, first we will jail the farmer, then we will check to see if changes are necessary to the law because farmers are going to jail.

Civil disobedience is the peaceful alternative to civil war.

Personally, I'd say jail the farmer, but I'd respect his method, even as I'd vote on his jury to convict.
01:10 PM on 08/31/2009
"Look backwards"??? Hell, Bush and Cheney wouldn't look forward to consider the consequences of their actions.
11:53 AM on 08/31/2009
VP Chaney has been consistently wrong on just about everything & has no creditability, history has proven that. No matter how many excuses, rationalizations, or justifications he comes up with, the Constitution was violated & International laws were broken !

VP Chaney, & to those who support him. The Nile is not just a river in Africa ! !
09:10 AM on 08/31/2009
How many times do these criminals have to confess to their crimes before the are finally frog-marched into prison? Again and again, they have admitted their disdain for the law, and again and again, no one has arrested them. It is beyond time to get them into their rubber cells and on a bread-and-water diet. I want to hear Dubya and Dickie, Condi and the rest, hammering out a tin cup chorus.
08:12 AM on 08/31/2009
Dave, I can't tell you how pleased I was to see you describe it as the faux pundit circuit. Because I am so tired of the word "pandit" being debased in America. A pandit in India (the word is from Hindi and Sanskrit) is a teacher and a scholar (particularly one versed in the Vedas). To see these utter fools come out in public and claim to be scholars or experts, or have the claims made on their behalf, makes my blood boil.
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iviewit
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07:33 AM on 08/31/2009
Real War Crimes of Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Condi visit & read the following reports describing torture & abuse in mass of children & more. This is what the blacked out part of the CIA Report is about, juicy enough for die hard torturers who want to make waterboarding a child rearing punishment the links below will blow even you away.
http://www.kucinich.house.gov/UploadedFiles/int3.pdf
http://www.judiciary.house.gov/hearings/printers/110th/IPres090113.pdf
http://judiciary.house.gov/news/090824.html
The CIA Inspector General Report shows people beaten to death in our custody, not given a single legal or human right & in fact abused, killed, lost or treated as Concentration Camp Prisoners in Nazi America. Cheney is right; the people in the CIA who followed orders that generated from Cheney should have our compassion & sympathy, misled by Cheney to commit horrible acts, now living with what they did, my heart & soul goes out to them as heroes. They will live with the Warmares of torturing people, favorite quote of the CIA Report from our own US Soldiers:
Concerns Over Participation in the CTC Program
231~ During the course of this Review, a number of Agency officers expressed Unsolicited concern about the possibility of recrimination or legal action resulting from their participation in the CTC Program. A number of officers expressed concern that a human rights group might persue them for activities…

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07:21 AM on 08/31/2009
Dave Hackel's piece about Cheney is probablypretty accurate. However, unless I am mistaken, I think we may have forgotten which network the young Wallace works for. That sort of questioning certainly would not be in his job description.
01:57 AM on 08/31/2009
Cheney's stuck on spin cycle. There's no way he can rinse clean his dirty laundry.
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01:43 AM on 08/31/2009
You state that "we're trying to get back" rules of law and ethical standards, but the new administration isn't doing a great deal better than the old at helping us out with that. Obama has chosen to continue the Bush/Cheney crime syndicate's practices of extraordinary renditions, indefinite imprisonment, and torture--no wonder Cheney feels so secure in lecturing media bootlickers on how he can do anything he wants and no one can touch him. But it's okay because he was fighting terrorism. We know that because he says so!

The only things we have to fear are fear itself and the constant fear-mongering of politicians with a vested interest in fear.
01:47 PM on 08/31/2009
I can't say this is true, only hope it is...
Maybe Obama is hoping to get the Right to realize the power of the current (Black) president and react with fear? If the Republicans dismantled the Patriot act and wrote strong laws to prevent anything like it from re-occuring, and several Democrats "defected," and supported those laws, it might be the fastest and (in political effort) cheapest way to restore the rule of law.
Or it is just an example of power corrupts...
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02:24 PM on 08/31/2009
Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that Obama is merely strategizing with his fear sell because he's addressing his "war on terror" message to the public, not specifically the Republicans. I was both disgusted and uneasy at reading his remarks on how the war against Afghanistan is necessary to American security--it's a complete adoption of a Bush/Cheney position, not anything remotely like the "change" we voted for. It's also not true, which is one of the more disturbing aspects of Obama's pro-war stance.

Although you're right that dismantling the Patriot Act and enacting laws to prevent such totalitarian legislation in the future would go a long way toward re-establishing the rule of law, it's extremely unlikely that that will ever happen, as both Republicans and Democrats have an enormous stake in appearing, rather than actually being, "tough" on crime in general and terrorism in particular.

I wish I could be more optimistic.