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Dave Johnson

Dave Johnson

Posted: October 21, 2008 08:00 PM

Would a McCain Win Mean a Legitimate Government?


McCain is running an entirely negative, divisive, racist campaign based on lies, intending to trick, manipulate, deceive, divide or otherwise do whatever it takes to get enough people to vote for him.

And we all know it.

So if it works, where are we? Do we accept such a government, elected based on the appeal his campaign is making?

Set aside for a minute all the the voter suppression, problems with voting machines, etc. -- that's not what I want to write about here, go here for what to do about that -- and instead imagine that Nov. 5 we learn that McCain is the "winner of the election" and that it comes from a surge of voters responding to his current campaign.

What would that mean? And what do we do? Do we accept a government that we all know is in power entirely based on lies, division and racist appeal? This is a serious question: Is such a government legitimate?

I'm asking for a discussion, not making a declaration.

Update - An email I received:

Unless there is evidence of illegal activity, yes, we must accept such a government, and, yes, it is legitimate. It is not illegal for an individual operating in an unofficial capacity (as a presidential candidate as opposed to a senator) to lie. Citizens have a responsibility to verify the accuracy of the information they receive. If they choose not to verify it and choose to believe a lie and to act on it with their vote, that is their right, and they deserve to be governed by the lying president they've chosen. There's nothing in a democratic political system that requires a candidate to tell the truth. It is we, each individual citizen, who must require it by refusing to accept any information we haven't verified for ourselves. We fail miserably at that, so we generally get the government we deserve.

Follow Dave Johnson on Twitter: www.twitter.com/dcjohnson

McCain is running an entirely negative, divisive, racist campaign based on lies, intending to trick, manipulate, deceive, divide or otherwise do whatever it takes to get enough people to vote for him.
McCain is running an entirely negative, divisive, racist campaign based on lies, intending to trick, manipulate, deceive, divide or otherwise do whatever it takes to get enough people to vote for him.
 
 
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03:07 PM on 10/22/2008
Just a hypothetical. What do you think will happen if McCain is elected. And I mean seriously, not "Im gonna pack up and move to Costa Rica." With the enormous support that Obama has enjoyed, and the feeling that only he can truly help America, what will be the reaction to John McCain assuming the presidency.
04:24 PM on 10/22/2008
Man, I LOVE Costa Rica :)

Personally, though, I think it depends on how the down-ballot elections turn out. I disagree with virtually all of McCain's policies, but he can't get those policies enacted without congress. So, for example, if the Democrats succeed in getting a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, he's screwed. There's no way he'd be able to get anything he wants passed unless he'd be willing to give the Dems things from their own agenda.

What will certainly happen is we'll lose many more lives of American soldiers, and we may anger the new Iraqi government, and her People, to the point that sectarian violence gets out of control again. I say this because their government wants a withdraw date in writing, and McCain consistently opposes a date of any kind. People who have Muslim friends or have read the Koran for themselves know, the reason any occupying force has to deal with bloody murder in a Muslim country is because it is their religious right, and in fact their obligation, to defend their lands against invaders and occupying forces.

I've got way more than 250 words worth of stuff to say, but that's a start anyway. Short answer, more of the same - but to what degree depends on a number of questions that haven't been answered yet.
02:26 PM on 10/22/2008
America was founded on a revolution.
The founding fathers didn't accept the lies of an imperial power.
The imperial power is now the US corporate sector and it is subjugating the people through control of the political process and the media. If we want a free, honest and just America it's time for revolution again. Take to the streets!
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Querent
I just had to say that.
03:36 PM on 10/22/2008
Agree.
01:14 PM on 10/22/2008
Of course we accept it. If he wins fair and square we have no choice. It just means buckle down.
01:47 PM on 10/22/2008
"Fair and square" - there's the rub. He can't win this fair and square. He can cheat his way in like bush did in 2000 and 2004. The only question is whether or not the American people will put up with it this time.
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02:04 PM on 10/22/2008
I got this email from RedState.com. I found it oddly non-partisan in tone:

"Sorry for the email intrusion, but I wanted to recommend that you monitor http://votefraudsquad.com/ for news about voter fraud around the country.

The website is affiliated with the Voter Integrity Project, which is a non-partisan project to help the American voter report and expose incidences of vote fraud and vote suppression. This is an issue that crosses party lines and we should all be concerned about it.

To learn more, please go here.

Sincerely yours,

Erick Erickson
Editor, RedState.com"

When I visited the link, I was surprised to find that the vast majority of stories were about Acorn, which didn't jibe with the non-partisan approach I was expecting. I looked up the url to see who votefraudsquad.com was registered to. It's the Sam Adams Project:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/19/the-sam-adams-project/

This is the kind of crap that Republicans are going to use to frame a debate that the election was somehow stolen by voter fraud.
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MCTSilverlakeCA
retired Sr Litigation Insurance Fraud Manager
04:18 PM on 10/22/2008
No..we don't "buckle down"... we "buckle UP" because it's going to be a wild ride, all the way ...down.

I no more believe that the Republican party and it's bunch of big talking financial advisors would be able to save what's left. The World Economy is riding on this Election too you know, and they have already expressed a vote of No Confidence in the McCain/Palin ticket, so if by some rare and incredibly stupid stroke of bad luck they do end up in the White House ... the first thing I'd do is call for a RECOUNT, and that would include any alleged voter fraud alleged inappropriate or alleged fraudulent votes... remember what happened in the Florida elections when Jeb Bush- Candidate for Governor -forced thousands of votes to be uncounted due to the now famous "hanging chads"... (that's the little holes the punches didn't punch all the way through, so even though there were holes in the cards of the ballot, they weren't counted because they didn't detach the tiny little piece of paper on the back completely off the ballot). .. Oh ...and I forgot... there were many allegations of thousands of "lost" ballots also...so much so in fact that it became National News .. alleging Republican Voter Fraud.. had won the race for the Republican candidate.. who just happened to be the brother of President Bush...
12:24 PM on 10/22/2008
What would it mean?
That we are totally screwed and headed to 3rd world status.
12:05 PM on 10/22/2008
mcsame's junta will have as much legitimacy as bush's (if bush decides to give up power).
11:48 AM on 10/22/2008
In some ways, it may really be up to the Republicans of conscience to stop this. We really need them to stand up and refuse to be a part of another stolen election to elect another failed presidency and vice-presidency. If you are in a position of power or in a position to cooperate, simply refuse to carry out illegal acts and stand up for the Constitution and our democratic form of government...all we stand for.

We need, indeed I implore those Republicans who see what is being done with voter suppression in their name, and the vote flipping machines, and all the ugliness, to simply stop being used. Stop being a part of it.

Take Colin Powell's lead and the lead of countless others who have said, "Enough!"
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peterg76
Freelance medical transcriptionist
11:45 AM on 10/22/2008
Yes, if you win the election, you're legitimate. It's called 'democracy'. If fact, you would be way more legitimate than Little George in 2000. But, seriously, Republican and fair election just don't go together.
justobserve
Not left nor right or center. Just a free thinker!
12:16 PM on 10/22/2008
If McCain and the Palins (don't forget her shadow Co-Governor Todd) should win this election, they are legitimate but that legitimacy is the same as in a Banana Republic. We wouldn't be proud that such a blatantly lying campaign helped liars to become our president and vice president. We should be better than those regimes that we had wanted to export our democracy to.
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OlderBudWeiser
Retired RN in Ca.
01:06 PM on 10/22/2008
Kind of like when the Palistinians voted in Hammas.
12:27 PM on 10/22/2008
Contradict yourself much? By your reasoning, GWB *won* the election, and is therefore legitimate.

He did NOT win the election. It was awarded to him by the Supreme Court. The majority of people in the United States of America voted for Al Gore.

That, sir, is NOT democracy.
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peterg76
Freelance medical transcriptionist
03:47 PM on 10/22/2008
George Bush, obviously, did not win the 2000 election, and the US ceased to be a democracy. By "winning", I meant without electoral fraud or flagrantly illegal actions by the Supreme Court.
11:40 AM on 10/22/2008
Obviously, with the surge of momentum in the Obama campaign, represented by the recent polls, McCain is making a last gasp attempt to win this election. But to somehow try and question whether his win would be legitimate is laughable. Every pundit covering McCain and his tactics are acting as though this is new territory for a presidential candidate. That is simply not the case. But as the venues for displaying commentary increase, these men and women jump at the opportunity to theorize and expound on issues and topics that they are so clearly biased against.

P.S. Why is Sarah Palin so underqualified? She has held more elected posts in gov't than Barack Obama. She is the governor of a state. But since its Alaska, it is completly disregarded. Talk about the American dream, shes lived it. Ive never seen such a fear about what COULD happen, in terms of the possibility of Sarah Palin assuming the presidency. John McCain isn't knocking on deaths door. My grandfather is 88, and stills play tennis once a week. Joe Biden in the White House, scary.......
12:23 PM on 10/22/2008
1. She doesn't have a clue what the VP's job entails.
2. She can't name ONE supreme court case besides Roe v. Wade.
3. She can't name ONE paper, blog, or magazine she reads to stay apprised of world affairs.
4. She is a liar.
5. She appointed friends to government positions for which they were not qualified.
6. The METROPLEX I live in is more than 5 times the size of Alaska - furthermore, the reform she claims as her own in Alaska has been documented as "well underway" before she even took office.

Shall I go on? There's plenty more where that came from.
02:15 PM on 10/22/2008
All good and valid points. By no means am I huge supporter of this choice for VP. I believe McCain and his advisors made a calculated choice to attempt to appeal to the religious right and conservative base that McCain had lost footing with.

But my next question is: if she is so wholly unqualified to be VP, what specific qualifications, in terms of government service and experience, does Barack Obama have to be the leader of the free world?
02:28 PM on 10/22/2008
What qualifications does Barak Obama have to run the United States (i.e. govt experience, knowledge of economic issues and foreign policy)
justobserve
Not left nor right or center. Just a free thinker!
12:25 PM on 10/22/2008
Do you know how many votes one needs to win the Alaska Governorship? Palin won with 114,000 votes. She won it based on her divisive tactics and her "executive experience" for being a Mayor of Wasilla of 5,000 people. How many did she won it? 600 votes! Do you know how people got the top job in Alaska? It depends on who you know. Palin had been able to get to the top by kicking the guys who helped her to get there in the first place. Read her records. That is why there is a joke: Palin is the post-turtle who gets to sit on the top of the post by someone else; She couldn't get there by herself. Read the real Alaskan's opinion to know the real Alaska: "That Sarah Palin is one unreal Alaskan" http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/383843_alaska19.html
11:36 AM on 10/22/2008
It would mean that our government was elected by the people attending McCain / Palin rallies.
11:17 AM on 10/22/2008
Screw that, it'll be time to pack the bags and move somewhere tropical.

As for the email you received - that person can PISS OFF. NO, I don't have to accept the farce of a government that would be the result of McCain stealing the election and becoming POTUS. I am INFORMED, I WRITE congress - I WRITE the idiotic pundits that don't deserve to be on the airwaves - I DONATE to campaigns of those that I feel represent my views and values the closest (nobody is perfect), I VOTE, and so on.

Finally, I have NO CONTROL over the IDIOTS in this country that aren't informed, vote based on one issue (taxes, abortion, guns, RACISM, etc.), or are just plain STUPID. So, Mr. Emailer, you expect me to just accept a McCain administration because the majority of the country either didn't do their homework or chose to believe the lies, deceit, and divisive politics flowing out of the McCain campaign?! No sir / ma'am - at the end of the day I am a human being and and American with the freedom of choice. So, YOU enjoy your monumentally destructive McCain administration, if it comes to fruition, but do it without me, because I will be a shiny new expat sunning on the beach before you can say "Drill, baby, drill!".
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suzukimom
01:41 PM on 10/22/2008
Right now you do have freedom of choice, but do you think the US would have to change that if very many of her most educated and financially able choose to leave? I used to wonder why the Soviets would force people to stay since having to do so was evidence of the failure of the system. But could that happen here? In answering it is necessary to remember that our government has already shown itself willing to undermine our rights to preserve the homeland?
04:38 PM on 10/22/2008
Excellent reply, Suzuki. There's no easy answer, but what is certain is everyone has a breaking point. A point at which there's nothing else that can be said, ignorance can no longer be tolerated, and you have to do what's best for you and your mate and/or family.

The Patriot Act abolished many of our rights. The American people LET that happen. I did my part - called and wrote to congress, complained on blogs, and tried to generate awareness of what was about to happen. What did I accomplish?

We only have power over the government and the corporate establishment who's really running the government if we speak and act with one voice. This country is sharply divided, and sad as it may be to think about, maybe it needs to hit ROCK bottom before people will wake up.

Senator Obama gets my vote because I truly believe he means to unite the country. Will we get behind him? That remains to be seen, but what we have seen is terrible, despicable acts carried out by the McCain campaign, designed to divide the country and incite hate. The country can't withstand a McCain victory, and I won't stay here and watch my home "burn" to the ground under his lack of leadership and willingness to divide.
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AMERIKA
Husband, Parent, Sibling, Business Owner, Progress
11:12 AM on 10/22/2008
Personally, I think that there has been a ground shift in the electorate. For me, this means that a McCain presidency will never be accepted by an electorate that clearly and overwhelmingly rejects his presidency. As such, it will be nearly impossible for McCain to impose his agenda on the congress, which will most likely be democratic. I predict that people will rise up against a stolen election, especially if the exit polling is overwhelming. It is imperative that people of good conscious, democrats and republican alike, monitor the vote and ensure the continuation of our democracy. Suspension of the election, stolen or not, will ensure the end of America. Everybody should download this primer from Steal Back your Vote http://www.gregpalast.com/sbyv/ and make sure that your vote is properly cast and counted.
11:05 AM on 10/22/2008
I'll try again!!! YEAH IT WOULD DAVE!!!!! It's called Democracy so vote and the winner is POTUS!!!
11:00 AM on 10/22/2008
What is scary about a McCain administration is Sarah Palin. Should the 72 year old McCain stroke out a few months into his term, the woefully unqualified Sarah Palin and her husband/chief advisor Todd would ascend to the most powerful office in the world. When one looks back at all the great men who have previously occupied the Oval Office, it is mind boggling to believe that very office could now be occupied by Sarah & Todd Palin, former Wasilla High School sweethearts.
11:17 AM on 10/22/2008
The consolation: we won't be the most "powerful" country in the world by then, we'd be a bona fide banana republic. Remember Imelda Marcos, anyone? Meet Sarah Palin.
01:54 PM on 10/22/2008
Another thing everyone seems to be side stepping is, she and her husband do not look up on Alaska as being part of the US. They could care less about what happens to the lower forty-eight states. The over all picture for them two is, the lower US becoming a third world country and Alaska becoming a country to be recokoned with.
This woman is, not one of us in lower 48 !
10:59 AM on 10/22/2008
When will the MSM stop endorsing McCain's scurrilous use of the word "terrorist" in conjunction with Obama? When will they tell the truth, that the real terrorists are leaders who maliciously whip crowds into a frenzy of fear and hate? Is this putting "country first"? I think not. McCain himself has said he's not interested in a "washed-up terrorist" but endorses robocalls that make people think Obama was in some sort of terrorist cell with Ayers. Here is Ayers himself:
"I'm often quoted saying that I have "no regrets." This is not true. For anyone paying attention--and I try to stay wide-awake to the world around me always--life brings misgivings, doubts, uncertainty, loss, regret. I'm sometimes asked if I regret anything I did to oppose the war in Viet Nam, and I say "no, I don't regret anything I did to try to stop the slaughter of millions of human beings by my own government." Sometimes I add, "I don't think I did enough." This is then elided: he has no regrets for setting bombs and thinks there should be more bombings."
Ayers' group was not anti-American, but anti-government. They targeted buildings, not people, when Obama was eight. Why isn't more made of the AIP, much admired and respected by Palin and her husband, and McCain's close ties to both G Gordon Liddy and the PNAC?
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jp5472
12:48 PM on 10/22/2008
Post after post...bringing up your same points...emails to all the major network and the Associated Press...my response? Form letter replies....and the sound of crickets. I figured that after Letterman hit McCain with Liddy, that the door was now opened for news sources to question this relationship, but it's been almost a week.....crickets.
01:27 PM on 10/22/2008
I've given up with American media and now look to the UK press for more accurate information. My brother lives in the Far East and he says he's taken to reading Al Jazeera, as it's more objective than the American press. The rest of the world is looking on in amazement at what's happening here. Apart from a few hidden nuggets that Huffpost manages to unearth, and people like Keith Olbermann who tell it like it is but are disparaged as just another loony leftie, the media in this country has become a joke. Thank God for sites like this, which reassure me that a lot of people can still think for themselves.
10:58 AM on 10/22/2008
We've had a government for the past eight years based on campaign lies. I don't see the difference.

And the only way McCain pulls this off is by cheating.

VOTE EVERYONE. Vote early if you can.
01:56 PM on 10/22/2008
As Bush said in Florida, vote, vote early and vote often !