David Kirby

David Kirby

Posted: October 18, 2009 08:50 PM

NIH Agency Head Backs Vaccine-Autism Research on Friday; Resigns from Federal Autism Panel on Saturday

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Story Landis, PhD, director of the National Institute of Neurodevelopmental Disorders and Stroke (NINDS), an NIH agency, surprised many parents on Friday by stating that autism researchers should study "the children who have been most profoundly affected" by adverse reactions to vaccination.

On Saturday, Dr. Landis abruptly resigned from the powerful Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee (IACC), which helps direct hundreds of millions in federal tax dollars to autism research, treatment, care and services.

In her letter of resignation, Dr. Landis cited embarrassing notes she had left behind after a recent meeting of the IACC that "triggered frustration and anger" among many autism parents; and for having "inadvertently introduced a distraction" from autism research. She did not mention her newfound support for vaccine-autism investigations in the letter.

Over the weekend, Dr. Landis wrote to IACC committee members:

I am very sorry that I passed notes to a colleague during the September 30 IACC meeting. It was unprofessional of me and I should not have done it. These notes were recovered after the meeting and posted on the Age of Autism blog. I understand how my comments triggered frustration and anger. Further, I inadvertently introduced a distraction from focusing on the important questions at hand. Therefore, I have decided to resign from the IACC effectively immediately. Again, my apologies to the other members of the IACC and to the autism community. I regret that my actions have eroded trust at a time when we need to build stronger ties across government and the community. Although I will no longer be a member of the IACC, I remain committed to finding the causes of and effective treatments for autism.

Meanwhile, on Friday I had written to NINDS to elicit more context for the rather cryptic notes that Dr. Landis had left behind after a recent IACC meeting. The notes, published at Age of Autism with commentary by Katie Wright -- the daughter of Bob and Suzanne Wright, cofounders of Autism Speaks -- seemed to speculate about the motives of one IACC panel member, Lyn Redwood, an autism parent and research advocate from Georgia.

One note read:

I wonder if Lyn Redwood is pushing autism as multisystem disorder to feed into vaccine injury?

Lyn Redwood has long advocated studying the physical and biomedical symptoms found in many children with autism -- such as seizure disorders, encephalitis, immune dysregulation, neuro-inflammation, oxidative stress, mitochondrial dysfunction, GI disease, glutathione depletion, etc -- and their possible connection to vaccine injury and exposure to mercury from thimerosal.

To many parents, it seemed that Dr. Landis suspected Redwood of "pushing" the study of these multisystem problems merely to boost the number of autism cases filed in vaccine court (the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program), and to increase their chances for victory. Judging by the comments on Age of Autism, those parents were profoundly offended by the implications of that interpretation.

The next thing Dr. Landis wrote was this:

Would be a good justification for looking at vaccine injured kids who have gotten awards.

That statement intrigued me. I agree with Dr. Landis that Lyn Redwood's "pushing" of multisystem disorders would be a good justification for looking at adjudicated cases in the federal vaccine injury program, in order to investigate the full range of clinical outcomes -- including ASD -- among those children who "have gotten awards" in vaccine court.

Ms. Redwood is not the only one who thinks this would be a good idea. Earlier this year, the National Vaccine Advisory Committee to the Department of Health and Human Services voted unanimously to recommend at least five types of studies involving vaccination and the causes of autism.

"A subset of ASD that might be usefully studied is the intersection of ASD cases with (medically recognized) adverse events following immunization, such as fever, febrile seizure, or hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode," the vaccine committee wrote in its report to HHS. "Some overlap will be expected by coincidence, and given the publicity of the autism-vaccination debate it will be hard to avoid reporting bias, but it would be worthwhile to assess whether adverse events following immunization correlate with risk of ASD."

HHS has stated that more than 1,300 childhood vaccine-injury cases compensated in vaccine court have involved encephalopathy (brain disease), seizure disorders, or in most cases, both diagnoses. But HHS cannot tell us how many of those 1,300 children also happened to have an ASD, because those are not figures that the agency routinely tracks, according to CBS News.

So, the federal government has a current database of more than 1,300 known and adjudicated severe vaccine reactions in young people. Why wouldn't one want to see how many of them also have an autism spectrum diagnosis? The current US estimate is 1-in-100 children, so one would expect to find about 13 kids in that study cohort. If the numbers are significantly higher than that, after trying to control for reporting bias, then further investigation might be warranted.

But was Dr. Landis agreeing with Lyn Redwood (and the NVAC) that there was a "good justification" for studying these kids? Or was she -- as many parents interpreted the note -- mocking the mother of a child with autism for being greedy and litigious?

I wanted to go directly to the source, so I wrote to NINDS, asking for clarification and more context. To her credit, Dr. Landis furnished the following statement:

I can understand people's reaction seeing just the note that I wrote during the recent IACC scientific workshop. I felt it important to apologize immediately to the autism community, which I did at yesterday's IACC, subcommittee meeting. Let me repeat my apology for the record: "I have seen some thoughts that I jotted down during the recent IACC meeting posted on Katie Wright's blog. I am very sorry that my personal reflections during the meeting have been taken out of context and have been interpreted by the community in ways that I would never intend. As a responsible and committed member of the IACC I am sorry for the upset that it has caused and the concerns that it has raised."

Fair enough, and quite gracious, as well, in my book. And then came the part that surprised me:

The other part of my note addressed the fact that it is important for autism researchers to study the children who have been most profoundly affected by their response to vaccines. That in no way mitigates my sincere apology to the families who interpreted my note to be uncaring and disrespectful.

A lot of people I have spoken with were also surprised by the statement, given the general hostility toward vaccine research they have encountered at the IACC. And it is more than a bit ironic that President Obama -- who has vowed to find the "cause' and "cure" for autism -- now has a vaccine committee that wants to study autism; but an autism committee that doesn't want to study vaccines.

It would be great to hear Dr. Landis elaborate on her statement about "children who have been most profoundly affected by their response to vaccines" and, to that end, I have asked NINDS for a follow up interview.

For one, I would respectfully inquire why she did not publically share her privately jotted thoughts on how "important" it is for autism researchers to study vaccine-injured children. But I would also want to know what Dr. Landis thinks about the National Vaccine Advisory Committee report.

The vaccine committee was also particularly interested in the possible intersection between vaccination, mitochondrial dysfunction and autistic regression. "A small and specific subset of the general population (such as those with mitochondrial dysfunction) may be at elevated risk of reduced neurological functioning," the NVAC report says, "possibly including developing ASD, subsequent to live virus vaccination."

Immunization "almost certainly does not account for the recent rise in ASD diagnoses; however, public concern regarding vaccines and autism coupled with the prevalence and severity of ASD warrant additional study in well defined subpopulations," the nation's leading vaccine safety experts concluded. "Recent developments around mitochondrial dysfunction reinforce the importance of studies of adverse events following immunization in rigorously defined subsets of the ASD spectrum."

Now a new, admittedly small study in the Journal of Child Neurology shows just how important the mitochondrial field of inquiry may be. Researchers looked at 28 children with ASD and mitochondrial disease and found that 17 of them (60.7%) had gone through autistic regression, and 12 of the regressive cases happened following fever. Among the 12 children who regressed after fever, a third of them had fever associated with vaccination, as was the case of Hannah Poling v. HHS.

Dr. Landis is not the first head of an NIH agency to support at least some type of vaccine-autism research. At an earlier IACC meeting, the representative from the Eunice Kennedy Shriver National Institute of Child Health and Human Development (NICHD) was the only federal member to abstain from voting to kill the study recommendation on vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated children. Shortly thereafter, Autism Speaks' Chief Science Officer, Geraldine Dawson, Ph.D., interviewed Duane Alexander, M.D., then director of the NICHD.

"One question [is] whether there is a subgroup in the population that, on a genetic basis, is more susceptible to some vaccine characteristic or component than most of the population, and may develop an ASD in response to something about vaccination. We know that genetic variations exist that cause adverse reactions to specific foods, medications, or anesthetic agents. It is legitimate to ask whether a similar situation may exist for vaccines," Dr. Alexander said, adding that the trigger might be, "some adverse or cross-reacting response to a vaccine component," or a "mitochondrial disorder increasing the adverse response to vaccine-associated fever."

On October 1, Dr. Alexander stepped down as NICHD Director to become a senior scientific advisor to the Director of the NIH's Fogarty International Center, to work on reducing maternal and infant mortality and morbidity in the developing world.

I was hoping that Dr. Landis would continue at the IACC in Dr. Alexander's path of advocating for these important investigations. But now those hopes will be placed on her successor.

 
 
 
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- mofmars333 I'm a Fan of mofmars333 58 fans permalink
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OH MY GOD!

They won't be able to explain this one away with their propaganda this time.

If this link won't work by clicking, cut & paste it. Close any gaps & remove any extra link it picks up, too.

If there ever was a must see video, this is the Mother

http://www.youtube.com/user/informationsansprix#p/c/5B173BE99A025F19/0/32D_nIGtSnw

Dr. Andrew Moulden, telling "US" like it is, only this time, after all that's transpired, it's going to stick.

Some have been fooled but others know full well the extent of crimes we've been up against on this matter of vaccinations.

People still backing them so religiously, after seeing all the evidence & learning all the many facts, are no less than criminals, who by association aided the guilty.

They guilty took what was meant for good & turned it against "US"

Their greed manufactured the cruelest hoax ever put on mankind & their reign is over.

Those really duped better choose the correct & moral side, real quick, & help "US" fight, to right the wrongs, now.

If there's any deniers left they're just not paying attention.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:52 PM on 10/20/2009
- dugmaze I'm a Fan of dugmaze 37 fans permalink
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This one amazing video!

Everyone must watch this.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:03 AM on 10/21/2009
- mofmars333 I'm a Fan of mofmars333 58 fans permalink
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Truth's out big time & those working to deny the facts & fool our people will soon be needing to find another line of work as big pharma will now be forced to revamp & get back to having the well being of our nation at heart.

Be sure & see this link;

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/

It's from the below articles that exposed "Merck" & vindicated the honorable Andrew Wakefield.

It has oodles of articles & reports of fact that have buried this vaccination matter in truth, to the point there will be no recovery in keeping up with the status quo.

We are on the road to recovery.

We can now begin to right the wrongs that will lead to the healing of our nation & ripple out to benefit the world.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:19 PM on 10/20/2009
- Aslanone I'm a Fan of Aslanone 3 fans permalink

Story didn't "resign" over some notes that could have been easily explained; she was FIRED for finally and publicly admitting the urgent need for autism-vaccine research. Duane Alexander, former head of NICHHD, was "retired" from his post in July because of similar statements calling for vaccine research, this time by including several thousand unvaccinated kids in the $6b. National Childrens Study. What's emerging is an iron lockdown, censorship and suppression, to block ANY autism research implicating vaccines. This is an insult to science and to Congress, who required both "cause" and "treatment" research (with an emphasis on environmental triggers including vaccines) in the Combating Autism Act. The feds' active suppression of vaccine research, especially examining the comparative health of the unvaccinated, makes it all the more apparant that they have a big problem and they know it. Ironically, their denial and refusal to act quickly to identify and and correct problems risks undoing the benefits of and public confidence in vaccines. Tom Insel's leadership on IACC has been ineffective and unresponsive to Congress and the autism community. His family and personal ties to vaccine profits disqualify him on conflict of interest grounds. He needs to be replaced by a leader who can stop shuffling the Titanic's deck chairs and get busy solving the problems of autism.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:05 PM on 10/20/2009
- mofmars333 I'm a Fan of mofmars333 58 fans permalink
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SOS

Here's my "Open Letter to Media" in part.

See the entire content demanding truth & fairness in reporting by clicking either of the two following links.

Join & stand with activists & save your family from mandated flu vaccines that may be coming your way.

Join the healthcare workers;

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NY-Vaccine-Strategy-Forum/message/1274

Join hundreds of group owners, patriots & citizens;

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WETHEPEOPLE_UNITED/?yguid=386499233

Do your part & help save our children. Google for emails of your favorite news anchors & networks & send your own message!

"Open Letter to Media***This is really big & so should coverage of the rally be"

You'll find details of upcoming rally below in this communication.

First, a word from the sponsors;

Drug Giant Merck – "Destroy" Critical Doctors "Where They Live

"Court evidence now available on-line at the University of California library shows drug giant Merck systematically targeted "hit-lists" of doctors to discredit, neutralize or destroy critics of the safety and effectiveness of
Merck's drugs."

This also included Andrew Wakefield who's a British medical doctor who put children's health & safety over autism & the MMR vaccine before his career & has been hounded by big money ever since.

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/gop-democratic-senators-a_n_325307.html?show_comment_id=33082742#comment_33082742

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:27 AM on 10/20/2009
- mofmars333 I'm a Fan of mofmars333 58 fans permalink
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Wakefield was framed just as we thought!

"Dr Andrew Wakefield Demolishes Ignorant US Vaccine Lobby"

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/02/06/andrew-wakefield-demolishes-ignorant-us-vaccine-lobby/

Sunday Times’ Discredited – Wakefield’s Autism Research Verified

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/wakefieldreplicated/

"UK Press Complaints Commission Orders Sunday Times “Remove MMR Journalist’s Stories” on Dr. Wakefield from Paper’s Web Site"

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/07/02/briandeerdowninflames/

"Sunday Times Defies Press Complaints Commission – News Releas-Sunday Times’ Stories Collapse In GMC Wakefield Prosecution"

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/04/10/sunday-times-stories-collapse/

"Sunday Times Defies Press Complaints Commission
Paper Notifies Media Oversight Agency that it Will Not Remove from its Website False Stories about MMR and Dr. Andrew Wakefield"

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/07/09/stdefiespcc/

"Sunday Times’ London Editor Must Quit Over False “Wakefield MMR Data Fixing” Story"

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/sunday-times-editor-must-quit-over-false-wakefield-mmr-data-fixing-story/

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/swine-flu-death-toll-cont_n_325160.html?page=2&show_comment_id=33064152#comment_33064152

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:25 AM on 10/20/2009
- dugmaze I'm a Fan of dugmaze 37 fans permalink
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I thought I would never say this but I'm losing faith in President Obama. I've given him every chance I can but facts are facts. He isn't doing NOTHING he claimed he would do.

Our children's safety is off limits. This includes our children today, our future children, our past children(God bless their souls), and our children fighting in war. Nothing is more sacred than children.

I swear today that I will not vote for President Obama or any other Democrat when our children's safety is a risk. Something must change. WE own this country, not big pharma.

This is hard for me to do because I'm a loyal Progressive Democrat http://pdamerica.org/index.php . But first I'm a father and a human being with morals.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:38 PM on 10/19/2009
- mofmars333 I'm a Fan of mofmars333 58 fans permalink
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I know just what you're saying Doug. Obama is disappointing.

I keep hoping he's really playing chess while others are playing checkers & that his genius will save "US"

But I don't know now. I was one ardent stubborn supporter & never believed Obama would be a puppet.

I'm giving him one last chance before I give up on him but he sure better grow a pair real quick.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:27 PM on 10/20/2009
- dugmaze I'm a Fan of dugmaze 37 fans permalink
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"I keep hoping he's really playing chess while others are playing checkers & that his genius will save "US"

I think that is key for some of us who support Obama. We've lost so much in the past that all we have left is hope.

I really believe the peace prize was awarded to Obama to get him back on track. I guess time will tell but it isn't looking good!

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:01 AM on 10/21/2009
- sarahsam I'm a Fan of sarahsam 5 fans permalink

Hey Doug, I like your wit and arguing technique with the trolls so I want to ask you a question-no snottiness intended.
When Obama said he was against vaccine choice what did you think he meant? That's when I turned away from him for good. That's when I knew we were screwed and the hope and change were for others.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:18 PM on 10/20/2009
- dugmaze I'm a Fan of dugmaze 37 fans permalink
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Hi Sarah,
I'm ashamed to admit that I was so blinded by "change" that I didn't even look at Obama's own words. I knew McCain was for vaccine research but figured this was just another smoke screen. McCain turned too far right in the last year of his campaign and this was key for me. I spent about 6 years studying neocons and have developed a deep hatred for them. I was so worried about McCain being a puppet for them that I failed to research Obama carefully.

I think that's why I feel so betrayed concerning Obama. I feel like it's my fault for not sticking to my principals and researching everyone on everything. I know this may sound paranoid to some people but our children are suffering for our mistakes. I just hope I stop making them.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:55 AM on 10/21/2009

Another wonderful piece, David, and I thank you for continuing to try to find answers. "And it is more than a bit ironic that President Obama -- who has vowed to find the "cause' and "cure" for autism -- now has a vaccine committee that wants to study autism; but an autism committee that doesn't want to study vaccines." WELL SAID!! I am curious to see how this will all play out.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:37 PM on 10/19/2009
- nhokkanen I'm a Fan of nhokkanen 9 fans permalink

"...[I]t is more than a bit ironic that President Obama -- who has vowed to find the "cause' and "cure" for autism -- now has a vaccine committee that wants to study autism; but an autism committee that doesn't want to study vaccines."

Best.
Line.
Ever.

But as a commentary on the U.S. government -- utterly tragic.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:17 AM on 10/19/2009
- Kim Stagliano - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Kim Stagliano 146 fans permalink

As long as Alison Singer is on the IACC, Dr. Paul Offit is on the IACC. You can take it from there.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:27 AM on 10/19/2009
- Kim Stagliano - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Kim Stagliano 146 fans permalink

David, did you omit the keywords that open the troll floodgates on this post? Is this post too much about human beings and not enough about vaccinations for them? Did the dog eat their talking points? Perhaps it's a just a busy Warcraft day.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:56 AM on 10/19/2009
- jened I'm a Fan of jened 7 fans permalink

yeah, I was thinking that too, Kim. Where's Josephius etc.? I guess some recent news pieces like the Canadian study that showed people under 50 who got the regular season flu shot were actually MORE likely to get the swine flu, the news of the U. of Cal researcher who is sounding the alarm over ALS and Gardasil at a neurologists conference, oh yeah, and that pesky study by Hewitson that showed infant primate's development being negatively affected by the hep b vacc with the thimerosal in it. Or even Dr. Oz talking about brain swelling in autism and touching on autism recovery.
That stuff or just a busy Warcraft day.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:38 AM on 10/19/2009
- foe2Hg I'm a Fan of foe2Hg 15 fans permalink

I think you are right , Kim. I also think their ammo is getting stale and just not working anymore.

How could it with so much science and data proving continual vaccine injuries still happening and many with roots to autism and immune issues.

Teresa

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:49 PM on 10/19/2009
- rmoffi I'm a Fan of rmoffi 9 fans permalink

It is unrealistic that parents "ask" that Dr. Insel "resign or retire" himself.

That request should not be made by parents...it should be made by the most responsible elected representative in our government...our President.......who campaigned very hard to win our trust...an­d...having won that trust...can no longer be forgiven for not realizing how inept Dr. Insel's chairmanship of the IACC has been over recent years.

Under Dr. Insell's failed stewardshi­p....absol­utely NOTHING of note has been accomplished in regards to the solving "mystery" of autism.

Please... Mr. President...ask not what your country can do for you...but....what you can do for your country.

Demand Dr. Insell's immediate resignation.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 AM on 10/19/2009
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How can we interpret these events?

First of all Dr Landis confronted with a note that suggests she is scheming to thwart parents concerned by vaccine damage as a cause of autism, covers her position by saying that she has been misunderstoood and is sympathetic to them - which contradicts the record of her past behaviour. Then, in a separate act, she resigns her position, which disembarrasses her from having to represent her newly discovered convictions on the committtee - and lo and behold we are back to square one. None of this looks much better than a pawn sacrifice in a game of chess in order to re-establish a position.

Unless the committee swiflty moves to accede to parental concerns which it has been blocking by hook and by crook these many months, the whole epsode will emerge as a sham. But then do they really care, providing they hold the bureaucratic line?

All we see here presently is the endless abuse of office, and contempt for ordinary citizens.

John Stone: Contributing editor, www.ageofautism.com

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:01 AM on 10/19/2009
- Elier I'm a Fan of Elier 2 fans permalink

Thank you so much, David, for not letting go of this horrid tale of corruption. This is the most important health news story that has ever happened in our lifetime. Even more, given our technological advances and the lighting speed of our communications, this is the worse health disaster in the history of humankind because with the tools we have there is no excuse whatsoever for not stopping this madness. The number of people possibly being irreversibly affected by vaccines is mind numbing and the will to look into it is completely absent. It is amazing that, with all this, there is only a few people covering this story with the honesty and urgency it deserves. If our president was given a Nobel Peace Prize for just a few speeches (Gitmo is still open & torture goes unpunished) I don't know what you deserve, you along with the complete staff at Age of Autism (Olmstead, Kim, Kent, Mark, Katie, etc.). There is no prize in this world important enough to reward what you do.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:26 AM on 10/19/2009
- nogggin I'm a Fan of nogggin 4 fans permalink


Adults, presumably neuroypical adults, passing notes like grade school children. Hmm. Sounds to me like they’re somewhat lacking in social skills. How ironic.

I don’t know, maybe I’m missing something here. Forgive me if I am, it’s just that I have little time for grade school antics.

Here’s the question that I’ve been asking myself for the last five years: Why is it that whenever people want to speak their mind about this issue--speak what they believe to be the truth--they find that they can’t? They find themselves whispering, passing notes, being told to shut up, being forced to shut up, being censored, threatened with arrest or with losing their jobs? Either that or else they’re mysteriously resigning.

The late Bernard Rimland, I am told, referred to the CAA as the ‘pretending to combat autism act’. Nothing is going to change until people stop worrying about their jobs, their friends, the spigot of research funds and charity funds that pour into their coffers. They need to STOP PRETENDING.

I myself would consider accepting Ms. Landis’ apology only after she explains to parents why it is that she couldn’t speak her mind openly at that IACC meeting. Why couldn’t she just speak about the other part of her note, there at that meeting? The part that “addressed the fact that it is important for autism researchers to study the children who have been most profoundly affected by their response to vaccines.”

And why has she resigned NOW?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:10 AM on 10/19/2009
- Natasa I'm a Fan of Natasa 12 fans permalink

Amen

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:48 AM on 10/19/2009
- dugmaze I'm a Fan of dugmaze 37 fans permalink
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"Adults, presumably neuroypical adults, passing notes like grade school children. Hmm. Sounds to me like they’re somewhat lacking in social skills. How ironic"

That's funny!!!

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 PM on 10/19/2009
- bensmyson I'm a Fan of bensmyson 5 fans permalink
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Holding my breath to see what becomes of this. Certainly the Federal Committee on Autism with an appointed member writing what seems to be disparaging remarks about those making claims of injury as an inflated cause to their child's disorder in order to receive financial compensation, was addressing someone else on the committee. We have only read one side of the communication, Landis'. What was said that prompted or was in response to the note? And who said it? They need to go as well.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:39 AM on 10/19/2009
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Thank you, thank you, thank you! I can't express my gratitude enough, thanks for sticking with the story, thanks for not backing down.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:13 AM on 10/19/2009
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