The Bible is notoriously hard on women. From seemingly attributing humanity's fall into temptation to Eve in the beginning of the Old Testament to barring women from certain leadership positions late in the New, the Bible is shaped through and through by the patriarchal culture from which is sprang. While Proverbs 31 presents only one of the Bible's many complex passages on women, because it is one of this week's readings in the Revised Common Lectionary that guides the preaching of thousands of ministers, it invites discussion.
The passage describes the qualities of a "good wife" and is a favorite among Evangelicals and Fundamentalists because of its supposed affirmation of traditional gender roles. The good wife Proverbs extols, for instance, is trusted by her husband, adored by her children, works day and night to take care of her household, and even makes her own clothing.
But as New Testament scholar Brent Strawn of Emory points out, she doesn't quite conform to stereotypes about the happy homemaker. While noting the strong patriarchal bias of the passage, Strawn also notes that this wife is a successful business woman and profitable entrepreneur, excelling at various pursuits not traditionally associated with women. But even though it offers a more three-dimensional picture of a wife than we might expect from the Bible, the passage is still problematic in that it's incredibly hard to imagine when this woman ever has a chance to rest. As Strawn notes, she's "working hard everywhere, on everything, for everyone, from dawn to dusk." For a generation of women who have taken on more roles and responsibilities than ever before and yet still report never feeling like they've done enough, this ideal is not just unattainable, but also can be demoralizing.
At the same time, however, historian Amy Oden notes that perhaps what this passage doesn't say about women is as important as what it does. Oden, who serves as Academic Dean at Wesley Theological Seminary, points to three important things made conspicuous by their absence.
First, the passage "doesn't say that a wife's worth is derived from her husband." Rather, she has her own identity and integrity of being, and her value is at no point contingent on or determined by her relationship with, let alone obedience to, her husband.
Second, the passage "doesn't say anything about pregnancy or childbirth, often key credentials for womanhood in the ancient world, and still in our own in many quarters." She is, apparently, a good mother, as the passage states that "her children rise up and call her happy," but that is a far cry from assuming that the point of her being is to bear and raise children.
Third, the passage
doesn't say anything about her appearance or physical appeal. There is nothing about weight, shape, clothes, make-up or make-over, the sole topics of women's worth if current popular culture in America were to be believed. Has she achieved "younger-looking skin?" Does she "bulge in the wrong places?" Does she know "what not to wear?" We'll never know.
In this way, as Oden points out, Proverbs offers "a radical counter-cultural message," going so far as to say that "beauty is vain" (v. 29).
As the father of a twelve year-old girl, it's Proverb's focus on a woman's achievements rather than on the importance of physical appearance that I most want my daughter - and all of our wives, sisters, and daughters - to notice. Since the publication of Mary Pipher's Reviving Ophelia first called our attention to the war on our daughters waged by a beauty-obsessed culture twenty-five years ago, things have only gotten worse. Indeed, as the following video illustrates, we have now lifted up not just an idealized version of beauty by which our daughters are invited to compare themselves, but one that is completely artificial.
Yet if Photoshop and the airbrush are powerful weapons in the campaign to create a pervading sense of inadequacy in women - so that, of course, they pay, pay, and keep paying for cosmetics promising to make them beautiful - some are raising their voices in protest. You may have read about thirteen year-old Julia Bluhm's petition to Seventeen Magazine to run one unaltered photo spread per issue. 86,000 digital signatures later, Seventeen's editor pledged that they will no longer use Photoshop to alter bodies and when technology is employed to clean up photos they will note that in the article and direct readers to the untouched photos on one of their blogs.
We need more such voices, and I'd suggest Proverbs 31 - as complex as it certainly is - might be one of them. Think about it: this Sunday countless girls will be sitting in church listening to this passage. How many will hear it interpreted not as one more ideal they can't live up to but instead as a powerful voice that invites them to imagine that they have worth in and of themselves, that they can do anything they set their minds to, and that their value rests in their character and accomplishments, not in the rosy glow of their skin. That's a sermon I hope my daughter hears. And, for that matter, my son as well.
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Vashti: Refuses to Be a Trophy Queen (With Drastic Consequences)
The Purim story begins in the palace of Shushan with King Ahasuerus and his wife, Queen Vashti, hosting separate men and women's feasts for the people of the town. After seven straight days of partying, the King sends for the Queen, commanding her to appear, wearing her royal crown, to parade her beauty before the men's feast. Vashti refuses.
A classic commentary explains her reluctance by saying that the King asked her to appear "wearing only her crown," though that's not in the original text. The King is horrified at her refusal and consults his adviser, who points out that if Vashti is punished, all the women of the kingdom will get the wrong idea and begin to look down on their husbands. So Queen Vashti gets booted out of the castle, and for good measure, the King sends out a decree that man is the master of the home.
Vashti's story doesn't end in triumph -- she was a few thousand years before her time, perhaps -- but I have admire the woman's principles.
Esther: Beauty Is Power
With Vashti gone, Ahasuerus needs a new queen, and he decides to choose his wife by inviting the virgins of his kingdom to compete in a beauty pageant. One of these young women is Esther, also called Hadassah, a Jewish orphan being raised by her uncle, Mordechai. Esther joins the other contestants for full year of beauty treatments, and at the end, the King selects her as the winner.
As instructed by her uncle Mordechai, Queen Esther never reveals her Jewish roots. Some time later, Esther finds out that her people are in danger: The King's evil adviser Haman, infuriated by Mordechai's refusal to bow down to him, has recommended that the king kill all the Jews. Mordechai calls upon Esther to help, sending her a pointed message that if the massacre occurs, she shouldn't expect to be spared, and perhaps this was the very reason she had risen to such a position of power.
Despite the risks (after all, her husband has already shown himself to be intolerant of uppity wives) Queen Esther embarks on a complicated diplomatic effort. Through a series of planned feasts, subtle hints and well-timed revelations, she convinces the King to rescind his decree. She saves her people, and the evil Haman is punished.
Tamar: Seduction With a Purpose
Bear with me on this one. The setup is complicated, but the story is worth it.
Tamar is a young widow whose first husband, Er, has died and left her childless. According to custom, Er's father Judah arranges for Tamar to marry his second son, Onan, to provide her with a child who will carry on Er's name. Onan, however, displeases God (with onanism, actually) and dies without giving Tamar a child, at which point she should by law be entitled to marry the next brother in line, Shelah. But Judah, afraid to lose a third son, keeps Shelah away from Tamar, putting her in an tremendously vulnerable position as a childless widow.
One day, Tamar hears that Judah will be traveling north. She veils herself in the manner of a prostitute and sits at a major crossroads waiting for him to pass by. When he does, he solicits her services, but says he has no payment on him. Tamar insists that he leave his cord, seal and staff -- the personal ID of the day -- with her as collateral. Judah agrees and spends the night with this mysterious prostitute, having no idea it's his double-ex-daughter-in-law.
But when Judah sends a servant to pay the woman and retrieve his ID items, she is nowhere to be found. Three months later, Tamar reveals that she is pregnant. Judah's response is that she should be burned alive for harlotry. Tamar appears with Judah's ID items and says, "I am with child by the man who owns these." And to his credit, Judah immediately admits his wrong and apologizes. Tamar becomes the mother of twins, and it's worth noting that from those twins will eventually come the lineage of King David and the Messiah.
Miriam: Early Rock Star
Miriam, the older sister of Moses, is the first female prophet. She has a remarkably active role in the redemption from Egypt: as a girl, she saves her little brother's life at least once; after crossing the sea, she leads the women in song; and during the 40 years of desert wandering, she provides the Israelites with water. (Miriam also endures a seemingly unfair episode, mid-desert-wandering, when she's stricken with leprosy after criticizing Moses; elsewhere I've focused on that moment, but here I'll focus on the positive and celebrate her leadership.)
Miriam's two-verse song at the sea is considered by many scholars to be among the oldest words of Torah. The fact that the text preserves the image of a woman leading a song, and the words of that song, especially when Moses has already led a full song of his own -- all of these make Miriam the first rock star of Torah.
Judith: Wins a War Armed With Only Cheese and Wine
Full disclosure: the story of Judith is in some Bibles and not others. The book containing Judith's story is apocryphal in Judaism and Protestant Christianity, meaning it didn't make it into the core Jewish Bible of those traditions. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians do include it. But it's still part of the broader Jewish text-family. In fact, the rabbis connect this story to Hanukkah. And Judith herself is just too badass to leave out of this list.
Judith is a beautiful young widow; her husband died unexpectedly three years ago, and she's been in mourning ever since. It's a time of war, and her city is surrounded by the enemy army, who are preventing supplies from coming in. The children are starting to starve, and all the men in power say it's time to surrender and that it must be God's will. Judith hears this and asks them to let her try one thing before they surrender.
Judith takes off her sackcloth and ashes, dresses in her finest clothes, and grabs a bag with some salty cheese and wine. Under cover of darkness, Judith and her maid sneak out of the city and straight into the enemy army's camp. It takes a while, but they eventually manage to reach the tent of the general Holofernes himself, using Judith's good looks and false promises of information. As her maid waits outside, Judith sits down beside Holofernes in his tent. She feeds him bits of salty cheese until he grows thirsty; then, sips of wine until he grows tired; then, as he drifts off to sleep, she takes his own sword from the bedpost and cuts off his head. Judith brings the head back to her city, where they hang it on the gate. When the enemy soldiers wake up and see Holofernes up there, they flee, and the war is won.
Definitely badass, but the story extends into art history. Judith with the head of Holofernes was a favorite subject of Old Masters painters. Among them was a woman, Artemesia Gentilleschi, who was the victim of a rape. In <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GENTILESCHI_Judith.jpg" target="_hplink">Gentilleschi's painting</a> (pictured here), Judith looks a lot like the artist -- and the beheaded general bears an uncanny resemblance to her rapist.
Shira and Puah: Midwives Committing Acts of Civil Disobedience
In Egypt, Pharoah devises numerous methods of oppressing the Jews. One of the most violent is attempted infanticide. Pharoah calls the Israelite midwives, Shifrah and Puah. He instructs them to allow newborn girls to live, but to kill any boys immediately.
Shifrah and Puah, though, disobey Pharoah's order. They save the boys, and when Pharoah calls for an explanation, Shifrah and Puah explain that the Israelite women give birth so quickly that the babies arrive before the midwives, giving them no chance to kill the babies. This answer seems to satisfy Pharoah. He moves on to other murderous tactics, but thanks to the midwives' act of quiet resistance, a next generation of male Israelites survives infancy -- including Moses, future leader of the Exodus.
Yael: Another Woman in Wartime Armed With Beverage and Sharp Object
What are the chances?
Quite similar to Judith, except this story is alcohol-free. In this war story, the female general and prophetess Deborah has already predicted that the enemy would be delivered into the hands of a woman. The Israelites indeed win the battle and the enemy general, Sisera, is fleeing. Yael, wife of Heber, invites him into her tent. He's thirsty and asks for water, and instead she gives him milk. Sisera falls asleep on the floor and Yael drives a tent-peg through his head with a hammer. Gruesome, yes, but definitely bad-ass.
The Bible is notoriously hard on women. From seemingly attributing humanity's fall into temptation to Eve in the beginning of the Old Testament to barring women from certain leadership positions late ...
The Bible is notoriously hard on women. From seemingly attributing humanity's fall into temptation to Eve in the beginning of the Old Testament to barring women from certain leadership positions late ...
" In Christ’s family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal. That is, we are all in a common relationship with Jesus Christ. Also, since you are Christ’s family, then you are Abraham’s famous “descendant,” heirs according to the covenant promises." Galatians 3:28
We need to be more concerned with how to be New Testament Christians-and less concerned with following rules and trying to figure out the formula to being a good woman or good man. There isn't one. There is only Christ. To know Him and to be like Him is the goal. Proverbs 31 focuses on what the woman DOES. The New Covenant of Christ shifts focus to who she is (if you want to give your daughter a good lesson in being the woman Christ wants her to be-check out the story of Mary and Martha in Luke).
jld1973: " In Christ’s family there can be no division into
What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Women? what about women of different races? What about homosexual women? Back then the man ruled and even when it came to birth they thought that the man held all of life within his sperm, the woman was only the dirt to plant the seed into.
TotalTranquility: What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About
The passage also doesn't say that puppies are cute. So what? Absolutely nothing of value can be derived from what a passage of Scripture doesn't address.
Also, Ms Strawn fails to understand that the Worthy Woman of Proverbs 16 is an example of industry and commitment for men and women alike, and in the same way that Abraham is an example of faith and trust in God for both men and women.
Finally, the lead-in from the author, "The Bible is notoriously hard on women," followed by a clearly incorrect understanding of Eve's sin and the role of women in the Church is vapid. Mr Lose has scant biblical understanding or intentionally provokes. Either way it is a sad position for a religious writer to occupy.
pjr12345: The passage also doesn't say that puppies are cute. So
"While Proverbs 31 presents only one of the Bible's many complex passages on women, because it is one of this week's readings in the Revised Common Lectionary that guides the preaching of thousands of ministers, it invites discussion."
While your inspection of Proverbs 31 is admittedly interesting and worthy of a broader discussion, it's merely one drop in a very large pool that has an gut-wrenching view of women.
That being said, it feels as if what you're trying to do here is expose a sort of loophole in order to link a Biblical viewpoint with today's current standards and beliefs that hold women as equal to men (yes, of course there are still gender discrimination issues such as equal pay and the like, but I speak in a very general sense).
Personally I feel that Christ, being one who seemed to hold a high regard for women in general, does enough of a service in this respect. But of course that raises the question of, well... if Christ (i.e., God in human flesh) respected women so much, why did God stand by for all that time while countless women suffered humiliation, disservice, and outright abuse at the hands of men?
Did God realize it made a mistake and sent Christ (i.e., ITSELF) to try and correct that to some extent? Possibly...
Ryan_Ashlight: "While Proverbs 31 presents only one of the Bible's many
Since God reveals Himself in the masculine, your attempt to gender neutralize Him shows you have formed Him in your own image, rather than according to His own revelation. That implies you revere a god, rather than the God.
We creatures must approach God on His terms, in His way, humbly and with fear and trembling. We are not allowed to recast Him in our own image. That is the foundation of paganism.
pjr12345: Since God reveals Himself in the masculine, your attempt to
Thats a pretty slick answer. I never really tackled that question effectively myself when encountering that remark (though efforts to locate it in the Ryan'sl post evade me).
In studying the various saints and sages and their shared meditations , unless they receive a visit by a personage ie Joan of Arc claims visits by Archangel Michael, Saint Catherine, and Saint Margaret, many others the Virgin Mary; God seems ALWAYS to be revealed in the masculine. God encompass aspects of the masculine and feminine (where else does the feminine come from) but always in revelation and how He presents, yes it is the masculine
steamchip: Thats a pretty slick answer. I never really tackled that
"Since God reveals Himself in the masculine, your attempt to gender neutralize Him shows you have formed Him in your own image, rather than according to His own revelation. That implies you revere a god, rather than the God."
To begin, your perception that the Christian God has only revealed himself in the Masculine is based off of nothing more than hearsay in the Bible, with no concrete proof and/or evidence to the contrary.
I could just as easily make the argument that the reason this is so is because the people at the time wished to preserve the status quo of a male dominated society, and to portray God as being anything other than male would have been a severe blow to this.
Now, certainly, you could argue, rightfully so, that this is just baseless speculation with no real proof. However, I'd shoot right back and say the same of you. Would you then say the Bible is your proof? If you did, I'd argue right back that if the aforementioned people who wrote the Bible were the ones influenced and/or interested by the desire to maintain the status quo of a male dominated society, and so of course the Bible would say what it does.
"We creatures must approach God on His terms, in His way, humbly and with fear and trembling. We are not allowed to recast Him in our own image. That is the foundation of paganism."
Cont.
Ryan_Ashlight: "Since God reveals Himself in the masculine, your attempt to
"attributing humanity's fall into temptation to Eve in the beginning of the Old Testament" - Curiously, the Jewish tradition, in sharp contrast to Christianity, has never seen the expulsion from Eden as a terrible calamity: rather, it's considered it as a challenge and blessing in disguise. Concurrently, Eve has never been besmirched (cf. the Rabbinical tradition versus early Church Fathers like St Augustine). Judaism has its own demons to fight against when it comes to women, though, but they are of a different kind. In theory, the female is most honourable, but in practice as a rule takes the back seat, especially in orthodox circles.
Eugene_Dubnov: "attributing humanity's fall into temptation to Eve in the beginning
Who cares what the BIble says? No, seriously? Treat women with respect, give them opportunities equal to those of men, and realize that women's place in this world is just as important as man's place in this world.
It's like those people who believe they need the Ten Commandments to live a moral life. Really, you need a book to tell you not to steal/kill/etc?
RyanBurke: Who cares what the BIble says? No, seriously? Treat women
They also need the Ten Commandments to remind them that God is a jealous, vain and insecure monster who demands to be worshiped. Regrettably, this rather incomplete set of rules did not include rape and pillage, slavery, genocide, infanticide, racism, mysogyny, the stoning to death of disobedient children, homosexuals, sabbath breakers and non-virgin brides, and a plethora of other heinous crimes prevalent in much of the OT.
Misinterpretation of the the bible is the cause of much death, destruction, despair, cruelty, false hope and division. It was written by primitive men who knew no better. Modern man ought to know better.
Trevand: They also need the Ten Commandments to remind them that
God is most certainly a jealous God. He wants His people to be faithful to Him and Him alone. And the idea that the "primitive men" who wrote the books in the bible were somehow spiritually inferior to modern man in moral understanding is provably false. The prpropensity of man to sin is ageless, and that is demonstrated across all time.
I do agree that misinterpretation of the Bible has resulted in many bad things, one of those being your post. You really have no understanding of the content of Scripture, Its purpose and lessons.
pjr12345: God is most certainly a jealous God. He wants His
HuffSubscriber’sComment
I fail to understand why the religious beliefs of various desert tribes living in Mesopotamia have such a hold on Americans living 5,000 years later. Their view of the world, particularly the role of women, has limited relevance to our current society. We can learn form their historic experience as we can from the experience of all cultures, but it is absurd to be controlled by that experience and pretend that we can bring nothing new to it.”
My reply!
You have a comtempory argument – “why believe any of these religions with, perceived by some, antiquated teachings?”
I for openers do not follow any organized religion – for each, and all, in their own way suffocate “Truth!” And if “Truth” is missing from the life’s equation in man’s search – so is God, and God’s mercy and love!
With the above said I am a believer of the God of the Bible, the Christ/mankind Savior, and the Bible being God’s Word. Question! What validates the Bible as God’s inspired word?
Answer:
What validates the Bible from other written documents on philosophical teachings, and learning tools – is the Bible’s fulfillment of prophecies. On Jesus alone there are some 60 plus prophecies made 300 to a 1000 years prior pinpointing Jesus birth, tribe born into, his actions on earth, divine presence, how Jesus will suffer -- and in him are the keys to everlasting life for man -- a gift of mercy from God the Father! Hallelujah!
NYC123: HuffSubscriber’sComment I fail to understand why the religious beliefs of
Your reply started out as a pertinent one, but about halfway through you reversed direction and headed off into the boondocks of dogma.
I also believe in God, but unlike you, I truly do have no religion. You state that you don't, then go on to confirm that, in actually, you are a Christian, and that your convictions are based upon a religious work that is not only based on at least three previous religious works, but over the centuries and millenia has undergone cuts, re-translations, re-organizations, and re-interpretations without number. Even the prophecies upon which you base your conviction have been edited in order to support just that conviction.
Personally, I think it's kind of cowardly to so obviously be a Christian, yet deny it. Why would you do that?
Maki_Maus: Your reply started out as a pertinent one, but about
I am a follower of the God of the Bible; and a follower of the Christ -- God's only Begotten Son......And in Him (Jesus) is found the fountain of eternal life. One that not have to be affiliated with any faith to accept the Christ. Think about it! :))
Yes, Eve was deceived. However, she chose to believe the serpent rather than God, or perhaps Adam (It depends if God gave His command to Eve directly, or it was conveyed to her by Adam. Although by implication of her comment, "God has said," it is likely - though not conclusive - that she was told directly by God).
Eve's sin was rooted in pride, the desire to be like God, so she chose to believe the serpent rather than trust God's words. She sinned first. Adam, as head of Eve, could have refrained from following suit, but he did not. Be it pride, or loving his wife more than God, he sinned and ate of the fruit, too.
pjr12345: Yes, Eve was deceived. However, she chose to believe the
Scripture is very clear – Eve was deceived by Satan in Eden.. Adam on the other hand was not deceived – he took the opportunity that supported his inner motives to “be his own man” – he partook, and here we are today!
Scripture is clear – woman is a complement to man.. I believe deep in our hearts and minds we know that to be fact!….Now to make it work 24/7…is a challenge in this imperfect, insecure world we live in.
Scripture is clear – a wife/a woman must be treated with the respect and honor.
Note, God has given man two overall calls: Love God with all thy might and strength; and second, love thy neighbor like thyself. And on both callings mankind has failed for eons. For one cannot love and discern God the Father without loving thy neighbor. And the reverse is also true – one cannot love thy neighbor without first loving God.
My point,“if man cannot achieve the above 2 simple callings – how can we expect man to respect woman – a calling that falls, as a sub caption, somewhere between “love God and love of neighbor?”
NYC123: Scripture is very clear – Eve was deceived by Satan
I fail to understand why the religious beliefs of various desert tribes living in Mesopotamia have such a hold on Americans living 5,000 years later. Their view of the world, particularly the role of women, has limited relevance to our current society. We can learn form their historic experience as we can from the experience of all cultures, but it is absurd to be controlled by that experience and pretend that we can bring nothing new to it.
Egmw: I fail to understand why the religious beliefs of various
EGMC you have a contempory argument – “why believe these antiquated teachings and gods.”
I for openers do not follow any organized religion – for each, and all, in their own way suffocate “Truth!” And if “Truth” is missing from the divine equation – so is God, and God’s mercy and love!
With the above said I am a believer of the God of the Bible, the Christ/mankind Savior, and that the Bible is God’s Word. Question! What validates the Bible as God’s inspired word?
Answer:
What validates the Bible from any other well-written document on philosophical teachings, and learning tools -- is the Bible’s fulfillment of prophecies. On Jesus alone there are some 60 plus prophecies made 300 to a 1000 years prior pinpointing Jesus birth, tribe born into, his actions on earth, divine presence, how Jesus will suffer, and more!
NYC123: EGMC you have a contempory argument – “why believe these
First it was not “desert tribes living in Mesopotamia”. The lands of Israel and Judea are/were located between Mesopotamia and Egypt. When the Jewish people were living in Mesopotamia they were not desert tribes but people that lived in the cities of Mesopotamia. They were desert tribes for only 40 years.
Most American's are not controlled by the experience of the Jewish people, but by respect for the words of the Great I AM and his prophets on Earth.
MEVirginia: First it was not “desert tribes living in Mesopotamia”. The
Oh, yes. Christianity (and the other Abrahamic faiths for that matter) are sooo pro-women. Women are property in religion, and only of value if they are virginal! Cherry-pick these ancient texts all you like, but it is modern western secular ethics that are only beginning to "allow" women the freedom to vote, hold property, control their own lives and reproductive health, enjoy sex (oh, the horror!)
Personally, and as a man, I think a few thousand years of Matriarchal Rule would improve things around here.
No shut up and go fix me turkey pot-pie...
or for the Mormon version: "Ya'll all shut up and go fix me turkey pot-pies!"
ZaphodBthe0: Oh, yes. Christianity (and the other Abrahamic faiths for that
We need to be more concerned with how to be New Testament Christians-and less concerned with following rules and trying to figure out the formula to being a good woman or good man. There isn't one. There is only Christ. To know Him and to be like Him is the goal. Proverbs 31 focuses on what the woman DOES. The New Covenant of Christ shifts focus to who she is (if you want to give your daughter a good lesson in being the woman Christ wants her to be-check out the story of Mary and Martha in Luke).
Also, Ms Strawn fails to understand that the Worthy Woman of Proverbs 16 is an example of industry and commitment for men and women alike, and in the same way that Abraham is an example of faith and trust in God for both men and women.
Finally, the lead-in from the author, "The Bible is notoriously hard on women," followed by a clearly incorrect understanding of Eve's sin and the role of women in the Church is vapid. Mr Lose has scant biblical understanding or intentionally provokes. Either way it is a sad position for a religious writer to occupy.
While your inspection of Proverbs 31 is admittedly interesting and worthy of a broader discussion, it's merely one drop in a very large pool that has an gut-wrenching view of women.
That being said, it feels as if what you're trying to do here is expose a sort of loophole in order to link a Biblical viewpoint with today's current standards and beliefs that hold women as equal to men (yes, of course there are still gender discrimination issues such as equal pay and the like, but I speak in a very general sense).
Personally I feel that Christ, being one who seemed to hold a high regard for women in general, does enough of a service in this respect. But of course that raises the question of, well... if Christ (i.e., God in human flesh) respected women so much, why did God stand by for all that time while countless women suffered humiliation, disservice, and outright abuse at the hands of men?
Did God realize it made a mistake and sent Christ (i.e., ITSELF) to try and correct that to some extent? Possibly...
We creatures must approach God on His terms, in His way, humbly and with fear and trembling. We are not allowed to recast Him in our own image. That is the foundation of paganism.
In studying the various saints and sages and their shared meditations , unless they receive a visit by a personage ie Joan of Arc claims visits by Archangel Michael, Saint Catherine, and Saint Margaret, many others the Virgin Mary; God seems ALWAYS to be revealed in the masculine. God encompass aspects of the masculine and feminine (where else does the feminine come from) but always in revelation and how He presents, yes it is the masculine
To begin, your perception that the Christian God has only revealed himself in the Masculine is based off of nothing more than hearsay in the Bible, with no concrete proof and/or evidence to the contrary.
I could just as easily make the argument that the reason this is so is because the people at the time wished to preserve the status quo of a male dominated society, and to portray God as being anything other than male would have been a severe blow to this.
Now, certainly, you could argue, rightfully so, that this is just baseless speculation with no real proof. However, I'd shoot right back and say the same of you. Would you then say the Bible is your proof? If you did, I'd argue right back that if the aforementioned people who wrote the Bible were the ones influenced and/or interested by the desire to maintain the status quo of a male dominated society, and so of course the Bible would say what it does.
"We creatures must approach God on His terms, in His way, humbly and with fear and trembling. We are not allowed to recast Him in our own image. That is the foundation of paganism."
Cont.
It's like those people who believe they need the Ten Commandments to live a moral life. Really, you need a book to tell you not to steal/kill/etc?
Misinterpretation of the the bible is the cause of much death, destruction, despair, cruelty, false hope and division. It was written by primitive men who knew no better. Modern man ought to know better.
I do agree that misinterpretation of the Bible has resulted in many bad things, one of those being your post. You really have no understanding of the content of Scripture, Its purpose and lessons.
Now I'm supposed to believe that the Bible is like jazz.
I fail to understand why the religious beliefs of various desert tribes living in Mesopotamia have such a hold on Americans living 5,000 years later. Their view of the world, particularly the role of women, has limited relevance to our current society. We can learn form their historic experience as we can from the experience of all cultures, but it is absurd to be controlled by that experience and pretend that we can bring nothing new to it.”
My reply!
You have a comtempory argument – “why believe any of these religions with, perceived by some, antiquated teachings?”
I for openers do not follow any organized religion – for each, and all, in their own way suffocate “Truth!” And if “Truth” is missing from the life’s equation in man’s search – so is God, and God’s mercy and love!
With the above said I am a believer of the God of the Bible, the Christ/mankind Savior, and the Bible being God’s Word. Question! What validates the Bible as God’s inspired word?
Answer:
What validates the Bible from other written documents on philosophical teachings, and learning tools – is the Bible’s fulfillment of prophecies. On Jesus alone there are some 60 plus prophecies made 300 to a 1000 years prior pinpointing Jesus birth, tribe born into, his actions on earth, divine presence, how Jesus will suffer -- and in him are the keys to everlasting life for man -- a gift of mercy from God the Father! Hallelujah!
I also believe in God, but unlike you, I truly do have no religion. You state that you don't, then go on to confirm that, in actually, you are a Christian, and that your convictions are based upon a religious work that is not only based on at least three previous religious works, but over the centuries and millenia has undergone cuts, re-translations, re-organizations, and re-interpretations without number. Even the prophecies upon which you base your conviction have been edited in order to support just that conviction.
Personally, I think it's kind of cowardly to so obviously be a Christian, yet deny it. Why would you do that?
Eve's sin was rooted in pride, the desire to be like God, so she chose to believe the serpent rather than trust God's words. She sinned first. Adam, as head of Eve, could have refrained from following suit, but he did not. Be it pride, or loving his wife more than God, he sinned and ate of the fruit, too.
I don't live with them anymore.
A serial of over indulgence and consumption leading to no peace or quiet.
God save us from ourselves ! Our kids deserve better than vanity.
Scripture is clear – woman is a complement to man.. I believe deep in our hearts and minds we know that to be fact!….Now to make it work 24/7…is a challenge in this imperfect, insecure world we live in.
Scripture is clear – a wife/a woman must be treated with the respect and honor.
Note, God has given man two overall calls: Love God with all thy might and strength; and second, love thy neighbor like thyself. And on both callings mankind has failed for eons. For one cannot love and discern God the Father without loving thy neighbor. And the reverse is also true – one cannot love thy neighbor without first loving God.
My point,“if man cannot achieve the above 2 simple callings – how can we expect man to respect woman – a calling that falls, as a sub caption, somewhere between “love God and love of neighbor?”
I for openers do not follow any organized religion – for each, and all, in their own way suffocate “Truth!” And if “Truth” is missing from the divine equation – so is God, and God’s mercy and love!
With the above said I am a believer of the God of the Bible, the Christ/mankind Savior, and that the Bible is God’s Word. Question! What validates the Bible as God’s inspired word?
Answer:
What validates the Bible from any other well-written document on philosophical teachings, and learning tools -- is the Bible’s fulfillment of prophecies. On Jesus alone there are some 60 plus prophecies made 300 to a 1000 years prior pinpointing Jesus birth, tribe born into, his actions on earth, divine presence, how Jesus will suffer, and more!
Most American's are not controlled by the experience of the Jewish people, but by respect for the words of the Great I AM and his prophets on Earth.
Personally, and as a man, I think a few thousand years of Matriarchal Rule would improve things around here.
No shut up and go fix me turkey pot-pie...
or for the Mormon version: "Ya'll all shut up and go fix me turkey pot-pies!"