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David Sirota

David Sirota

Posted: May 17, 2008 09:32 PM

Us vs. Them

Read More: Iraq, Politics News

The New Republic's Peter Scoblic has a great op-ed in the Los Angeles Times about Bush's comments to the Israeli Knesset this week. It is a must-read.

Here's the crux:

But if there is anything that has been discredited by history, it is the argument that every enemy is Hitler, that negotiations constitute appeasement, and that talking will automatically lead to a slaughter of Holocaust-like proportions. It is an argument that conservatives made throughout the Cold War, and, if the charge seemed overblown at the time, it seems positively ludicrous with the clarity of hindsight.

The New Republic, of course, has been one of the most reflexively pro-war publications in Washington, helping beat the drum for the Iraq War. However, Scoblic's op-ed is spot on -- and it derives from his new book, "Us vs. Them."

I've known Scoblic for years now, and though I certainly have taken issue with The New Republic in the past, I have always found Scoblic to be a solid writer, and not prone to the kind of national security zealotry and extremism many at that publication champion. I confess that because I'm swamped trying to get ready for my book tour, I haven't had a chance read the book yet, but if the op-ed is representative of it, then it's probably a worthwhile read. Whether it signals a shift at The New Republic -- I have no idea. But progressives certainly need more voices out there making the case that a radically different foreign policy is not just a good idea -- but a necessity.

The truth is, both our international economic and military policy is not only making the world less safe -- it is specifically making AMERICA less safe. Conservatives' attempt to make saber rattling and the concept of military action synonymous with "strength" and "toughness" is threatening our security. Democrats should be saying just that.

 
 
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03:59 PM on 05/19/2008
We should never assume that Republican politicians believe what they say. What they say is to gain public support of their proposed policies, but it usually has absolutely nothing to do with their real goals and real understanding of the situation. The Republican propagandists and politicians are not stupid people, they are just breathtakingly cynical, unprincipled, mendacious, rapacious, selfish, and greedy. It is not that they do not know their policies are bad for the US, bad for Iraq, and bad for the human race, but that they could not give a flying fig as long as they, and their cronies who will repay them, are making out like bandits. If they do not negotiate or they criticize negotiations, it is not that they think negotiation could not be helpful, but that they and their cronies can make money, a lot of it, out of war. And they know the US public has been dumbed down so far that most voters might buy it.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
dadw5boys
Disabled Vietnam Vet
11:36 AM on 05/19/2008
DUDE WHEN YOUR COUNTRY HAS NUKES RATTLING SABERS IS REALLY STUPID!!!!!!!!!
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Daisy1111
04:46 PM on 05/18/2008
Are there enough progressives to hand Obama a win in November?

Think Obama can win in November without centrist Democrats?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
truthskr
06:50 PM on 05/18/2008
If a centrist "Democrat" votes for a right wing, warmongering, neo-con (McCain) over Obama, I hate to tell you, they're not really Democrats.

Hillary and Obama are actually nearly identical in stance on the issues. Hillary lost, and Obama won, this primary due to their vastly different campainging styles, and not so much due to any actual significant differences on the issues (with the exception of the Iraq war). Hillary was deceitful, unethical, and depended upon a very outdated and antiquated fundraising and campaigning metric. Obama has almost always taken the higher road, leaving Hillary monopolize the gutter, and has run a a very intelligent campaign based upon grassroots, progressive fundraising and organization.

And it is progressives that Obama has attracted to the Party, or back to the Party. So, considering it is Obama, the progressive, who has won the nomination over Clinton, I would say that there are more progressives activated now that there are centrist Democrats, who, if they really adhere to and vote upon Democratic values and principals, will vote Obama over McCain in a heartbeat.

OT: I loved your book "Hostile Takeover," David. I read it about a year ago and found it very much on point. I am glad to have such a strong, progressive voice living in my city of Denver.
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egal
Reality disagrees with Conservative assessments
09:23 PM on 05/18/2008
Well, considering that a read of Obama's policy plans reveals that he's not following an extreme liberal or progressive blueprint save where necessary to effect vital change, one would hope that centrists, liberals, and conservatives of every stripe can come together behind those plans.

Of course, I also believe that most people are smart enough and nice enough (and practical enough) to make decisions in the interest of their nation (and look into matters of such importance rather than accept any hype at face value) ahead of their personal emotional attachments, so maybe I'm just being naive as usual.
02:01 PM on 05/18/2008
As I've posted elsewhere, only in George W. Bush's pea for a brain does talking with an adversary constitute appeasement. Perhaps this equation is grounded in the fear that if he sits down in a room with someone, he'll somehow be hypnotized or bamboozled into giving away the store. In Bush's case, that might in fact be correct. But in the case of a president who isn't a mental midget, and who is intelligent, intellectually curious and truly tough (rather than a poseur) -- like Barack Obama -- the notion is utterly ludicrous.
batguano
As Long As Grass Grow, Wind Blow & The Sky Is Blue
10:59 AM on 05/18/2008
War is in fact the true nurse of executive aggrandizement. In war, a physical force is to be created; and it is the executive will, which is to direct it. In war, the public treasuries are to be unlocked; and it is the executive hand which is to dispense them. In war, the honors and emoluments of office are to be multiplied; and it is the executive patronage under which they are to be enjoyed; and it is the executive brow they are to encircle. The strongest passions and most dangerous weaknesses of the human breast; ambition, avarice, vanity, the honorable or venal love of fame, are all in conspiracy against the desire and duty of peace".

--James Madison
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egal
Reality disagrees with Conservative assessments
09:27 PM on 05/18/2008
There's a reason history remembers him as among the greatest, little attention as most of our schools give to the Constitution, let alone thos whose laws define and empower the checks and balances that, under a remotely competent and intelligent leader who had earned his graduation instead of paying for it, might have prevented the gutting of the government that has left us a dictator-esque skeleton crew leading blind.

Of course, we may not need to worry abut peace with how our military has been gutted, as well, thus demolishing one of our more effective deterrents.
batguano
As Long As Grass Grow, Wind Blow & The Sky Is Blue
10:58 AM on 05/18/2008
"Of all the enemies of true liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manner and of morals, engendered in both. No nation can preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. ......cont


--James Madison
12:35 PM on 05/19/2008
Man, they (the founder's of our nation) sure had a great capacity for learning, understanding and then communicating their thoughts in writing. Marvelous!
10:34 AM on 05/18/2008
At the risk of violating Godwins Law;

When a person like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad calls the Holocaust a lie, and promises a new world without Israel. and refuses to stop his quest to become a nuclear power, comparisons to Hitler are somewhat justified.

And a treaty with a guy like that, isn't worth the paper it's reported in.
11:38 AM on 05/18/2008
You forget, Ahmadinejad isn't the head of state in Iran. He's the barking little dog that sits at the feet of the head of state. He makes a lot of noise, but he couldn't bite his way out of a paper bag.

Now, if the Ayatollah gets torqued off, it's a whole different ball game.
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egal
Reality disagrees with Conservative assessments
09:28 PM on 05/18/2008
The president already Godwin's Lawed, and nobody banned him yet or shut down his thread.
08:19 AM on 05/18/2008
As usual, HuffPo's POV exists on some utopian plane that has nothing to do with reality.

Certainly, the definitions of negotiation and appeasement are different. But whether or not one constitutes the other has more to do with the posture of the antagonist than dictionary definitions.

When a country has engaged consistently and unapologetically in rhetoric that is primitive, violent and threatening, negotiation IS appeasement. It says that we are willing to meet you on a level playing field despite your irresponsible, ominous threats and in doing so, effectively removes any incentive for the other country to reconsider their posture.

It's a simple concept, which I know tends to be difficult for HuffPo readers to grasp.
batguano
As Long As Grass Grow, Wind Blow & The Sky Is Blue
10:57 AM on 05/18/2008
You know, me old Da used to say to me; "Son, anyone who argues with a fool, is a fool". I believe that to this day, bu t from time to time I make exceptions. This is a case in point.

Your ignorant and snot-nosed comment is an example of what we have been experiencing as a nation all through the last 7 years of Bush/Neocon arrogance and hubris. You're comments do them proud, but offer nothing to change the morass of conflict their narrow-minded and politically driven foreign policy has gotten us into. Bush&Co have manufactured "enemies" for partisan politics and profit. Only a fool doesn't take into account the positions of their adversaries and history has tought that dialogue and a measure of understanding can lead to the end of conflict. Clearly it is the Bush regime and the power of the pro-Israeli lobby in America that has set the agenda for pre-meditated "war without end" that is a mainstay of the Israelis and the Bush regime. Apparently that is difficult for you and others of like mind to grasp. It is a simple concept, one that only the ignorant and those who failed to learn the lessons of history will see any merit in.
11:53 AM on 05/18/2008
You fail to address a single point I've made. Did Da teach you that?
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egal
Reality disagrees with Conservative assessments
09:57 PM on 05/18/2008
Um, were you talking about us (the U.S.) in that 3rd paragraph? Because you should have been.

Actually, negotiations exist specifically for politically, economically, internationally, or in other ways using (and flaunting) our power to dominate, pacify, or entice threats into not doing what we don't want. Negotiations themselves ARE an incentive for others to reconsider their posture, and a demostration of our power over them.

Negotiations neither imply a level playing field nor remove incentive, but in fact do the precise opposite, if you study history. Negotiation buys time, and can even defuse certain situations; but most importantly, it moves the dominant situation-defining and -manipulating power from those misbehaving to those (the U.S.) trying to command them.

Now, we have tragically lowered ourselves to the same, terroristic playing field as those we would target, divesting our own potency. We have abused, and thereby lost or severely diminished, our political and economic capital.

Negotiation is NEVER political appeasement. It can be used to reward, bribe, convince, punish, diminish and do a host of other things to the "enemy"; but politically and militarily, negotiation is simply a weapon used to increase our power over the enemy by limiting its power, influence, supplies, economic access, and other traits.

Negotiation in fact gives us power over those with whom we negotiate. Merely to agree to it, they admit that what we think of or how we act toward them matters, and our terms put us squarely in charge.
09:13 AM on 05/19/2008
You are fantastically wrong.

If Obama negotiates with Iran, the discussion will bog down in posturing and ridiculous demands. Iran will have been appeased, and will be laughing quietly at Obama.
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DickTater
American Livestock
08:12 AM on 05/18/2008
It's just so easy, in our society to win with a catchy right-wing phrase or clever framing of the Dem.
My favorite example, and maybe how this all started was Reagan with his "there you go again".

I don't even remember who it was....Mondale?
But when the sonorous, well-reasoned Dem talked and talked
The republican comes up with some kind of demeaning, Better Dead Than Red, For It Before He Was Against it, etc.
It's as if, we as a country stand around like a huge Roman Coliseum and we are suggested things to chant.....we always choose the easy, demeaning, irrational Republican Chant. "You Suck You TreeHugging Fuck" always seems to beat out "We Cannot Sustain Ourselves Any Longer By Wanton Waste Of The Natural World"

Lefties know this. Every time on Every Issue, we try to convince a largely irrational nation to behave rationally. We know the Uphill Struggles, Underdog Status, and that stupidity and gluttony and greed are much much stronger than reason and rationale and moderation.
Lefties know that you can get an audience to the point of realizing that Math Works, Science Works...and that we live in a closed system and we are killing it.....and one person can yell that "you live in a house made from dead trees and you drive a car so everything you say is a lie you treehugging fuck" and the audience just dissolves.

Mountains of facts leveled by some cowboy hollywood line.
08:21 AM on 05/18/2008
It's a great country, ain't it?
04:49 PM on 05/18/2008
The quote is,"There he goes again." It was said by Ronald Reagan in respose to Jimmy Carter at the presidential debates. I don't recall what the subject was, probably Carter had made some statement about the need to end dependence on midle eastern oil or some such silly thing. But the great RR knew better. His first official act as President of the United States was to dismantle the functioning solar panels on the roof of the White House and it's all been downhill since.
The Republicans are in a way correct that Iran is the cause of our problems. It was the Iran hostage crisis that got Reagan elected and America has never gotten over it.
02:23 AM on 05/18/2008
Yeah, right-- Abe Lincoln really talked his way out of the Civil War now, didn't he?

Diplomacy is speaking softly and carrying a big stick. It's a one way street, and always will be.
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10:35 AM on 05/18/2008
What in the world does that mean?

By the way, how's that Iraq thing going?
05:53 PM on 05/19/2008
No, Lincoln acually talked himself into the civil war. His great speach at Cooper Union in 1860 so shredded the souths' case for the expansion of slavery that they were virtually left speechless and from then on the mantra became " a vote for Lincoln is a vote for war".
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charon
Censorship is the betrayal of democracy
12:38 AM on 05/18/2008
The far right, influenced by the religious right, has completely lost it's mind. It lives in a delusional manichean world of absolute good (themselves) and absolute evil (the enemy). There is no compromise with their "enemy." To talk to them, to treat them as humans, is to surrender. Lose. One must fight them to the bitter end, because the only alternative is absolute annihilation of the self, the good.

This is the underlying theme of many of the "action movies" polluting the consciousness of this society. The dehumanized enemy deserves utter destruction because it is pure evil. It has been identified in psychological studies, such as "The Authoritarian Personality," as a characteristic of the authoritarian psyche.

John McCain, Bush, Cheney, etc. all authoritarians, see the world this way, like many people did in America in the Cold War. Better dead than red. They are insane. If the US doesn't change course toward a more sane worldview, we are doomed to become hated and reviled as an evil nation.
02:25 AM on 05/18/2008
Yin-Yang works.

Shades of grey doesn't.
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egal
Reality disagrees with Conservative assessments
10:10 PM on 05/18/2008
Well, look at the personality "type" leanings of humankind; it's well over 80% "authority is always right" and "I just do what I'm told" denial of responsibility even as we try to convince ourselves we have more power and individuality than we do. There's a reason Milgram's obedience studies shocked and the Nazi actions appalled: we like to think we're better and more individualistic than we really are, that we think for ourselves and are guided by morality.

But the reality is that we rationalize our actions after we act, which results both in unexpected heroism and unbelievable crimes. We prefer to think that those with whom we invest some measure of professionalism or authority are honest, deserve their position, prefer to do the best for us, and know what they're talking about even when they're nowhere near their subjects of expertise.

But it's easier to remember rhyming, catchy comments, and they more deeply impact us because of this. Facts are hard, which is why mnemonics exist, and catchphrases earned their name because they stand out to us and stick with us. So until we recognize our own weaknesses, tendencies, inclinations, preferences, whatever--until we are informed and prepared to look deeper rather than accepting authority at face value and succumbing to emotionally and verbally appealing statements, that won't much change.

We're designed for groupthink, and some of us don't know or care.
10:53 PM on 05/17/2008
Please consider transcending your dualistic thinking.

We are one. We have to ask ourselves, what is it our collective psyches that warranted such lousy leadership?

*'s idiotic statements in Israel don't pertain to his ancestral legacy of war mongering.

It's an entire projection.

Bellicosity doesn't qualify as diplomacy. EVER.

As usual.

Peace over time.
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10:33 PM on 05/17/2008
Obama made that exact point - that the Bush doctrine McCain wants to mimc has made US less safe in his speech responding to Bush's irresponsible display of unstatesman-like character at the Knesset. He also elaborated with examples of both Republican and Democratic presidents who had engaged in diplomacy with the greatest enemies of our time during their presidencies and doing so made America and the world more safe.
09:47 PM on 05/17/2008
War, as a political tool, is no longer an option for the United States of America in the 21st Century.

War, by any other name, is politics with weapons rather than words.

Picking up a stone and killing your brother.

How childish.
apoyo
Micro-bio? Sounds serious.
11:44 PM on 05/17/2008
War, as a political tool, should never be an option for any country.

How can death and destruction lead to good?
02:28 AM on 05/18/2008
It's not a question of good.

It's a question of winning.

It has always been thus.