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David Sirota

David Sirota

Posted: July 26, 2010 12:57 PM

You Make the Call: Who Is Correct In the Democratic Civil War Over Taxes and Spending?

What's Your Reaction:

In the last 72 hours, we've finally seen the outlines of the inevitable Democratic civil war that's been brewing over taxes and spending. Both sides argue that their way is the path to economic prosperity - and so the question is, which side represents a fact-based argument, and which side represents fact-free theorizing?

Before answering that question, let's first outline which side is which.

On one side is the Obama administration and progressive Democrats, pledging to keep its promise to let the Bush tax cuts for the very wealthy expire on schedule. Most on this side want to reinvest some or all of the recovered tax money and plow it into domestic spending that would rebuild crumbling infrastructure and economically support those hard-hit by the recession.

On the other side are conservative Democrats in Congress who are becoming increasingly brash in their declarations that either today's middle-class Americans or tomorrow's middle-class Americans (via. debt interest payments) should have to pay higher taxes or suffer through slashed services/benefits in order to prevent today's wealthy from paying any more. This is a varied group, but a nonetheless powerful one in its diverse motivations.

For instance, you have many "Blue Dog" Democrats. Afflicted with a debilitating case of Selective Deficit Disorder, these Democrats cite their devotion to deficit hawkery as reason to vote against unemployment benefits - but also defend policies like the Bush tax cuts. Democratic Sen. Ben Nelson is about the best example of this.

You also have what you might call Trickle-Down Democrats, who now openly insist their first and foremost priority is to prevent millionaires from having to go back to paying Clinton-era tax rates. A good example comes from Rep. Bobby Bright (D-AL), who told the Hill newspaper, "I don't care if it's the wealthiest of the wealthy, you don't raise their taxes."

And, of course, you also have Military-Industrial Democrats, who are saying that instead of reducing the Pentagon budget and its largesse to some of the wealthiest corporations as a way of finding new public resources, middle-income families should be compelled to pay higher taxes or endure cuts to their Social Security and Medicare benefits. Here's a good example:

Senator Daniel K. Inouye, Democrat of Hawaii and chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, said that he would be looking first at tax increases and changes in Social Security and Medicare to lower the deficit, and that there was "no way" Congress would make major cuts in the military while more than 100,000 troops were still at war.

Who is right and who is wrong in this debate? As they used to say in those old Major League Baseball commercials, you make the call after considering the verifiable facts.

From the stimulus debate, we know that both progressive and conservative economists agree that spending on programs like unemployment and food stamps are a far better boost to the economy than extending tax cuts. This makes sense - whereas a rich person may simply pocket a new tax break, a person on the economic brink will spend cash on necessities almost immediately. Thus, we can safely conclude that raising taxes on the wealthy and devoting those new resources to such programs would be a much better boost to the economy than simply extending tax cuts for the wealthy.

From government data, we know that tax rates are at their lowest level in 6 decades; the Bush tax cuts gave the vast majority of their benefits to the super-rich; and the Bush tax cuts are the largest single factor in our budget deficits. We also know that the Pentagon is at its highest funding level since World War II, and that this budget is so wasteful, the Pentagon has lost - yes, lost - of somewhere between $1 trillion and $2 trillion.

Finally, from the Clinton era, we know that higher tax rates on the very wealthy does not hamper the economy - as Sen. Byron Dorgan noted, "One of the most robust periods of economic growth was prior to the Bush tax cuts."

So, to re-ask the original question, which side of the Democratic civil war over taxes and spending represents a fact-based argument for economic prosperity, and which side represents fact-free theorizing? I'd say the evidence is pretty clear.

Unfortunately, new scientific studies show that stuff like facts and evidence no longer goes very far in our politics or in our mass psychology. But hey, we can still hope, right?

 
 
 

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12:18 PM on 07/27/2010
You can cut the pentagon's budget if we brought all our troops home instead of being in the business of nation building.

Also from the article:
"From the stimulus debate, we know that both progressive and conservative economists agree that spending on programs like unemployment and food stamps are a far better boost to the economy than extending tax cuts. This makes sense - whereas a rich person may simply pocket a new tax break, a person on the economic brink will spend cash on necessities almost immediately."

You know necessities like cell phones and flat screen tv's or Louis Vitton purses and what not.
09:47 AM on 07/27/2010
Mr. Sirota,
What you are obviously missing from your analysis is the effects the wealthy can have on politics if they so desire. It only takes a handful of people who are making over $10m a year to fund enough PR/donations/think tanks/talk shows/etc. to push for lower taxes. There's an easy and clear ROI on this slant and especially in "small" states with below average incomes, these proponents can easily get sway. A 5 million dollar campaign may only be one small voice in NY but in any of those lovely little red states up the middle of the country (IA, KS, MS, AL, etc) you can easily sway an election and get someone put in or pulled out of office.

Noblesse oblige est mort.
09:05 AM on 07/27/2010
The neocons convinced the country (including most of the Democrats) that war was a good first solution to problems rather than a complete breakdown of civilization. Obama's embrace of the wars really solidified that new American belief.

Will the neocons also win on the Bush tax cuts? Geitner says that they should expire. Problem is this administration generally starts by saying the right thing, but then negotiates its good position away to Fox News without actually getting any Republican votes. Hope Obama hangs tough for once.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
tacevad
American SS Card Carrying Socialist
08:42 AM on 07/27/2010
I'll take a tax and spend Democrat over the borrow and spend spend spend Republicans any day of the week.
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Rich Moraghan
12:30 PM on 07/27/2010
Sorry to interrupt your ridiculous argument; If you'll remember 9/11 and Saddam's state sponsored terrorism/Ignoring UN resolutions thing...and oh yeah, Taliban in Afghanistan sponsoring terrorism as well... Well, you'll begin to realize we sorta had to fight a few wars during Bush's presidency. Wars are expensive.

Then, we had the economic downturn that actually began before 9/11 (waning days of Clinton's presidency -- that Dems tried to blame on Republicans, which is ironic). We needed a combination of spending and stimulous, that was hoped to be temporary.

The difference between GWB and Obama, is not much here. Only difference is, that while allowing the tax cuts to expire, Obama is pushing for even more, and exponentially larger Gov't. expenditures.

I didn't like Bush running up a huge deficit, and I really hate anyone else running it up higher and faster. That, dude, is the basic Republican argument -- try arguing against us, rather than straw man arguments...might bridge a gap or something.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
tacevad
American SS Card Carrying Socialist
01:03 PM on 07/27/2010
I totally reject that "we sorta had to fight a few wars" especially one against the "straw man" Hussien and his "WMD"
The wholesale thievery under Bush Cheney and 6 years of Total Republican domination speaks volumes.
The difference between GWB and Obama is in domestic spending..you know helping Americans in general not just a few contributors, you know the haves and have mores that GW calls his base.
and I don't like arguing dude just facts
08:41 AM on 07/27/2010
From a strictly political point of view following the script of the deficit hawks is probably the best politics because if you realize at least 40 percent or more of the electorate are republican conservatives and maybe another 20 percent are somewhat conservative democrats put together you have a majority of voters willing to support this point of view. The fact that the president is a blue dog corporate democrat makes it even more likely that this is the path they will follow.
06:52 AM on 07/27/2010
First of all, the reason we can't get a sensible solution from our Reps is because the higher taxes may affect them. That's why they don't want higher taxes. The problem with higher taxes is that people who don't have jobs cannot pay higher taxes. They need to forget this crap about taxes until jobs are created. Why don't the Dems repeal NAFTA and all the other laws that have brought our industries down? Tax and fine companies for every outsourced job. Tax them or fine them so much that they would be better off bringing the jobs back. The issue here is not taxes, it's jobs.
06:36 AM on 07/27/2010
It is odd that the concept 'The war brought us out of the depression' wasn't popular until the Bush administration and the media learned the fine arts they practice.

It is the paycheck that mattered whether it came from war, government or private jobs or farming.

Social Security and other parts of the New Deal kept the country from a revolution.
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
R.W. Sanders
Numerous questions, too little expertise
02:40 AM on 07/27/2010
It is about who can raise the most money and create the most aggressive ad campaign because most of us are too lazy to think. Too many are concerned with the business of their every day lives to contemplate the state of anything other than themselves. Therefore they fall prey to talking points. If a message is repeated long enough and often enough, people will come to believe that these are their own original thoughts. A great example is " I'd walk a mile for a _____". Almost everyone can complete the sentence and say Camel. But that slogan has not been used for almost a half century. Somehow it has even carried on to new generations who have never heard it broadcast. This is the power of advertising. So far, the republicans are much, much better at using this tool to achieve their goals.
06:39 AM on 07/27/2010
Some are fogging up every issue and making everything more complicated than it needs to be. The more confusing anything is, the more theft and favors can be done.
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dnalpahs
01:15 AM on 07/27/2010
If one upholds freedom, one must uphold man’s individual rights; if one upholds man’s individual rights, one must uphold his right to his own life, to his own liberty, to the pursuit of his own happiness—which means: one must uphold a political system that guarantees and protects these rights—which means: the politico-economic system of capitalism.
AR
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NajkaLion
01:00 AM on 07/27/2010
A consistent argument against taxing people in the upper income brackets is that many small businesses file taxes as individuals, and if we raise their taxes, they will have to close and fire employees so jobs are at stake. Can someone explain why these businesses are filing as "individuals"? Why don't they file as businesses? Aren't they gaming the system by filing as individuals?
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pcrudy
08:45 AM on 07/27/2010
I am no expert, but I think they run their businesses a sub chapter S corporations meaning you get the benefits of corporation (protecting your assets being subjected to lawsuits) but then pass on your net profits in the corporation as income, which then gets reported on the individual tax return.
10:36 PM on 07/27/2010
A C corporation is double taxed, these are what most big corporations are, they pay taxes on income, and then shareholders are taxed when the corporation distributes a dividend.

S corporations, partnerships, LLC's etc are "pass-though" entities, this means the individuals report their share of the ownership of income on their personal tax return, the business itself pays no tax, so no double taxation. There is a slightly different rule for S corporations, but to keep it simple, this income reported from the business is subject to personal income tax rates and is also subject to SS and Medicare Tax, all of it, which is 15.3%. People who just have a normal job only pay 7.65%, the other half is paid by the employer. These entities file tax returns, but pay no federal taxes, they just report the income.

You can also be a sole proprietor, or a single member LLC, this means its solely your business. With this type you just report all of the income detail on your personal tax return.

Most small business owners in the US will end up reporting their income on their personal returns because of the above. Being a C corp is not really a good optoins due to the double tax.
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NajkaLion
11:55 AM on 07/31/2010
I appreciate the economics lessons. It seems there should be a way to separate the business out from real individual income taxes so the businesses wouldn't be penalized when there is an increase in real individual income taxes.
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LMPE
I connect the most dissimilar things
10:45 PM on 07/26/2010
Of course facts are irrelevant. Alls ya gotta do is falsify stuff.
10:35 PM on 07/26/2010
Unfortunately, whatever side you are on, you can get numbers to say anything you want' especially if you want to prove that your way is the right way. It's kind of like religion. Each religion insists their way is the only true way. Hey America, the free lunch is over. If we want to cut the deficit, it's going to take a combination of some taxes and spending cuts. If we could grow our way out of it with no pain, don't you think the politicians would have done it by now? They always look for the easy way out.
10:03 PM on 07/26/2010
Easy. Lower taxes and cut spending. Anything else would be illogical.
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hrpmap
Retired man still active..
11:00 PM on 07/26/2010
"The budget must be balanced, government indebtedness must be reduced, the arrogant authorities must be moderated and controlled, people should learn to work again instead of living of the public dole," - Cicero (106-43BC)
As long as their are people who must give away the public money to get themselves elected we will be in trouble. If they can't find another way they will simply charge it to generations of the unborn until we collapse.
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Appleblossom
11:02 PM on 07/26/2010
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! *sighs*
09:59 PM on 07/26/2010
Easy. Lower taxes, lower spending. Anything else would be illogical.
09:25 PM on 07/26/2010
Degette supporting Bennet? Amazing. Just shows you she's just another politician. Friendship trumps what is best for Colorado and the Country. Amazing. What a disappointment. Never to be forgotten. Whatever she says from now on....I don't believe you Dianne.