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Hawking's Grand Book, But Where Is the Design? (Part 2)

Posted: 09/20/10 04:53 PM ET

By Deepak Chopra and Menas Kafatos, Fletcher Jones Professor of Computational Physics, Dean College of Science ,Chapman University

In the first part of our review of The Grand Design we offered a response from the viewpoint of the general reader. But given the scientific esteem of Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, we wanted to address their theory of creation, known as M-theory, in more technical terms. This is such an important debate that the interested reader will find much to ponder.

The authors of The Grand Design have tackled an age-old subject -- the origins of the cosmos -- which more recently became a public controversy with the whole intelligent design debate. They go even farther, claiming that M-theory will bring to an end the quest for a unified theory of physics. (They concede that "no one seems to know what the "M" stands for, but it may be "master", "miracle", or "mystery,"' rather a letdown when you propose to explain all that exists.) These are bold goals were they to be realized -- M-theory would constitute a major revolution in humanity's search for the meaning of cosmos (if any) and our role in it. However, it is our view that the book doesn't add enough to resolve these grander issues. The basic reason is that Hawking and Mlodinow place their faith in physics to resolve ancient metaphysical questions, such as the need for a Creator, the existence of free will, and the relationship between mind and matter. But aside from that, what can be said about the science presented in The Grand Design?

Let's look first at the foundation of their thesis. Hawking and Mlodinow implicitly accept the External Reality Hypothesis (ERH), which, according to Max Tegmark of M.I.T., states that there exists an external physical reality, completely independent of us humans. This is in reality a metaphysical statement since it relates to the nature of existence (being). The adherents of the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics would reject the ERH on the grounds that there is no reality without observation. In other words, a human observer is woven into the fabric of science and perhaps of anything we can know about existence. We are not like children with our noses pressed against a bake shop window staring at what is behind the glass. We are part of the cosmic scenery, inseparable from what we see.

Quantum physics makes us focus not just on data but also on the way that we study the physical world, an interaction that forms an undivided whole. Actually, Hawking and Mlodinow seem to favor this view as well (as do most quantum physicists). They state, "The universe itself has no single history (our note, following Richard Feynman's sum over histories approach in quantum field theory) nor even an independent existence." This adheres to what John Wheeler of Princeton termed the role of observer-participant, the foundation of the Copenhagen interpretation. At the same time, however, The Grand Design supposes the independent existence of reality, or being. What is the role of observation, then? After decades of debate involving the greatest quantum physicists from Einstein on, the verdict is in: quantum mechanics is incompatible with local, realistic theories. Non-locality reigns supreme, and it holds that quantum events are connected across the cosmos, events that are realized through an observer. Space and time create local events, but non-locality defies our common sense notion that anything can be isolated in one place at a given time. The universe is stranger than that: if you tickle it here, it laughs over there.

Non-locality, as many physicists hold, may be the most profound discovery of modern physics, more so than M-theory. Non-locality is testable and has been tested in the laboratory; M-theory remains a speculation of cosmologists. It would have been good if Hawking and Mlodinow told us where they stand with respect to this issue. They do not say much about it although non-local reality is implied if one accepts many universes, as they do. What is the connection of non-locality to M-theory? For them to be silent on the most fundamental aspect of the quantum world, in a theory that purports to be the theory of everything, is a serious shortcoming.

In modern quantum theory, the building blocks of Nature are not static "things", like pebbles or little billiard balls, but dynamic, dancing interactions of possibility waves. If that is correct, as it is generally agreed it is, then one can assert a transcendent realm. To call something a possibility wave is to call it a "potential." A potential does not exist in space-time, it is actually the source of space-time. As such, the infinite transcendent presence from which space-time and all waves arise is the immeasurable potential of all that was, is and will be. As such, these waves of possibility allow an infinitely complex set of actualities to emerge. Hawking and Mlodinow remain ambiguous on an issue that could be the very crux of the matter.

Many physicists are puzzled by the value of the so-called "constants" of nature and the fine tuning required (not just in cosmology) to have the present universe as it is. Staggering fine tuning from 1 part in 10 to the power 50 are required to account for the current, observable universe, such as the homogeneity of the universe (i.e. having a more or less constant density at early times) and the isotropy (i.e. looking the same in all directions, as for example indicated by the cosmic background radiation), as well as the cosmological constant, which was formulated and then rejected by Einstein but now is back in vogue.

Hawking and Mlodinow, in keeping with the vast majority of physicists, want to preserve the constancy of physical laws as well as the fundamental principle that randomness rather than design prevails in Nature. Cosmologists have thus devised the multiverse theory that Hawking and Mlodinow favor. It proposes other universes to explain why our universe came to be perfectly fine-tuned for conscious life to exist. The reasoning goes like this: if there were a very, very large number of different physical laws and/or physical constants in all these universes, some of them would have laws that were suitable for stars, planets and life developing on these planets to exist.

Our particular universe would then seem unique when in fact it wasn't. Human life would still be random, even though fine-tuning makes it mathematically improbable -- to say the least -- that random swirling gases gave rise to life with such precision. But if you can afford to throw out billions upon billions of universes, improbabilities don't matter. On the other side is the theory that human beings cannot help but be the focus and end result of cosmic evolution. This theory is based on the so-called anthropic principle, which comes in two varieties, the weak and the strong. The weak anthropic principle holds that conscious beings (us) exist only in those universes which are finely-tuned for such conscious existence. The strong anthropic principle, on the other hand, "suggests that the fact that we exist imposes constraints not just on our environment (e.g. the existence of the right stable planetary orbits around a star) but on the possible form and content of the laws of nature themselves."

One would thus get around the question of fine tuning, which points strongly to intelligent design, by having a vast number of universes, most of them "still-born" (i.e. not supporting life and consciousness) but with a few allowing life to develop, including the cosmos we live in. Hawking and Mlodinow accept the strong anthropic principle but only in the context of the multiverse. We will return to this issue later.

The Grand Design also makes a bold and we believe unjustifiable claim that M-theory puts an end to the quest for a unified field theory, that is, a complete explanation for all physical processes. Reducing all the laws of nature to a single mathematical framework is the holy grail of physics. M-theory resulted from several decades of advances in unifying the weak and strong forces, leaving only gravity to be included. What Hawking and Mlodinow offer is essentially a multi-dimensional extension of string theory, which is also a candidate for unifying particle interactions. It adopts 11 or perhaps as many as 26 dimensions to comprise the multiverse. Objects are confined to that universe but may be able to interact with other universes via gravity, a force which is not restricted to a particular universe.

It is this property of gravity, according to the authors, which necessitates the spontaneous creation of multitude of universes. Gravity has no physical attributes; it is abstract and impalpable. Thus it becomes the transcendent creator, operating out of a void. "M-theory predicts that a great many universe were created out of nothing." Moreover, since gravity exists beyond all the billions of universes that spring up, creation can't be tied down to any single formulation: "there seems to be no simple mathematical model or theory that can describe every aspect of the universe. Instead there seems to be the network of theories called M-theory (or what we may term a "theory of theories"). Each theory in the M-theory network is good at describing phenomena within a certain range. Whenever their ranges overlap, the various theories in the network agree, so they can be said to be parts of the same theory."

The ensembles of universes are generically known as the multiverse (but there are actually different types of multiverses that scientists are exploring). "M-theory has solutions that allow for many different internal spaces, perhaps as many as 10 to the power of 500, which means it allows for 10 to the power of 500 different universes, each with its own laws. To get an idea of how many that is think about this. If some being could analyze the laws predicted for each of those universes in just one millisecond and had started working on it at the big bang, at present that being would have studied just 10 to the power of 20 of them."

This seems like sleight of hand, however. Their theory of everything posits that there is actually no theory of everything. Instead, we have short-range explanations, each plausibly woven into the other. Armed with M-theory, Hawking and Mlodinow can now challenge the concept of creation by design:

... creation does not require the intervention of a supernatural being or god. Rather, these multiple universes arise from physical law. They are a prediction of science. Each universe has many possible histories and many possible states at later times, that is, at times like the present, long after their creation. Most of these states will be quite unlike the universe we observe, and quite unsuitable for the existence of any form of life. Only a few would allow creatures like us to exist. Thus our presence selects out from this vast array only those universes only those universes that are compatible with our existence. Although we are puny and insignificant on the scale of the cosmos, this makes us in a sense lords of creation.

For hard-nose scientists of the kind they claim to be, this is metaphysics to the nth degree. We would agree that human beings are lords of creation, in the context of quantum participatory universe. But the statement that "our presence selects...compatible with our existence" is vague and has no formal mathematics, which is inconsistent with the author's stated goal. They are talking about being, all the time.

Let's look more closely at the concept of the multiverse. In fact, different classes of multiverses exist. A great taxonomy of universes (forming different types of multiverses) has been provided by Max Tegmark. Each one successively encompasses the previous types: Level I, would be the multiverse containing universes with all possible initial conditions, but still similar to ours, all with the same physical laws and the same physical constants (such as the speed of light). This prediction follows from the theory of chaotic inflation. These universes would be located beyond the horizon of our own universe. Most of them would be different in size but some, similar to ours, would be far, far, far away, more than a googolplex meters away (or 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 100!). Level II, are universes with different physical constants, or "bubble universes." They occur in the chaotic inflation theory, and they are embryonic level I multiverses.

Cosmologists estimate their number to be 10 to the power 10 to the power 10 to the power 7, a number that for all practical purposes is infinite, we cannot even expand it in writing! Different bubbles would experience spontaneous symmetry breaking resulting in myriads of universe with different constants, i.e. different laws of nature.

Level III type of multiverse follows the many worlds interpretation (MWI) of quantum mechanics first formulated by Hugh Everett and others, among them Wheeler. In quantum mechanics, certain observations cannot be predicted with absolute certainty; there is a range of possible observations, each with a different probability. According to the MWI, each of these possible observations corresponds to a different outcome in a single universe, but each outcome splits and cannot communicate with the others.

As Tegmark remarks, Level I and Level III are somewhat similar, although one resides in regular space-time, while Level III reside in probability space. The MWI comes with so much metaphysical baggage that Wheeler himself abandoned it. The problem, pointed out in the Conscious Universe by one of us, is that MWI assumes the absolute reality of the wave function which is used to describe the state of a quantum mechanics system. We should keep this in mind since MWI, although not the same as the M-theory with its multiverses, is closely related to it. Related to M-theory is Richard Feynman's multiple histories interpretation of quantum mechanics, which Hawking and Mlodinow embrace.

Level IV is the one that Hawking and Mlodinow adopt (although they did not discuss the other types). Having been developed by Tegmark, Level IV considers real all universes that are defined by specific mathematical structures, including universes that have different physical laws from ours. In this most general case, any Theory of Everything must have a mathematical structure. Therefore, mathematics is what counts in the end: multitudes of universes exist because different mathematics exist. We may even assume that this is the case. But then what is the origin of mathematics?

The fallacy here is that Hawking, Mlodinow, and many other theorists assume that mathematics exists outside of the mind that creates theories. A profound metaphysical assumption is being swept under the rug. For example, is the Hilbert space, which allows the formalism of quantum mechanics to work, real in itself? If the answer is yes, then we should, e.g., all follow Plato as this was precisely his view, namely that mathematics resides in a transcendent realm. But then there are only two choices: a) Mathematics and us, the minds who develop mathematics, are in a transcendent realm. If not, then b) Mathematics is an external agent, operating independently of human observers. How is that different from an external God operating outside of human observers?

We prefer the former view, and upon serious consideration, we believe this view may actually be more compatible with science. The Copenhagen school would insist that we should always consider the mathematical formalism as the means to interact with nature, the language we use to communicate with nature. We are part of the whole structure, or more correct the whole process, the mathematics, the physical system or universe, and us.

What we need is a dialogue between science and metaphysics, recognizing both as valid but complementary aspects of one reality. To refute one or try to merge both goes against the efforts of dialogue, the only way out of many problems. By the same token, metaphysics cannot substitute for physics. It cannot work from the premise that there is a creator God, for example, and then force science to conform to it. This is what the proponents of intelligent design attempt to do. The debate will go on, and few people will have their minds changed by this book alone. Perhaps, irrespective of the metaphysical arguments it makes against any need for a Creator, The Grand Design will help the argument to be made more cogent. We will be walking the shadowy line between physics and metaphysics for a long time to come.
(To be cont.)

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10:03 AM on 09/27/2010
So, if a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Answer: Who cares?
12:35 AM on 09/22/2010
I'm very very curious to know how anyone can defend this proposition: "Two plus two equalled four before humans were around." I'm no postmodernist, but I really don't know how this is a defensible position, seeing that it's more of a linguistic than a mathematical issue. I don't know how unconscious material objects have a semantic value . . . The material of the universe is certainly mind-independent, but all attempts to quantify or measure that material (including mathematics) is certainly mind-DEpendent. But I'm open to changing my mind . . . I just haven't heard a good defense for the position.
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alterego55
"Always intended to be a factual statement"
11:44 AM on 09/22/2010
The problem I have with most religions is that they are homocentric. Creation is not all about man. An asteroid could hit the Earth tomorrow, wiping out all mankind, and it would be but a hiccup in our solar system, unnoticeable in our galaxy and our universe. Yet, two plus two would still equal four, exactly four and nothing but four. Don't let your homocentric and egocentric faith get in the way of logic.
01:58 PM on 09/22/2010
How does the forumla exist without someone to formulate it? You mention logic, but logic, too, is mind-dependent. The universe is neither logical nor non-logical. To talk about it in logical or mathematical terms is necessarily to talk about it from a "homocentric" point of view, as you call it. I still don't see your polemitc about "homocentric and egocentric faith" as an answer to the question: How is mathematics (or any logical ordering of the universe) indepenent of humans who do math or logically order the universe?
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TYRANNASAURUS
UGH!....people don't taste good.
12:20 PM on 09/22/2010
MAYBE IT HAS TO DO WITH THE MAN WHO SAID...... I AM THEREFORE THE UNIVERSE IS.
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alterego55
"Always intended to be a factual statement"
03:15 PM on 09/21/2010
One only has to examine where Deepockets Chopra maintains his capitalistic lifestyle to realize why Hawking's views are such a threat to him. He is no Ghandi.
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DiogenesOfAlaska
Mitt Romney for president - of the Cayman islands!
04:40 PM on 09/22/2010
Maybe there's room in the world (or in the universe or in the multiverse) for Deepak Chopra, Hawking and Ghandi and alterego55 and me.

Or maybe not. But then at least we would know that Hawking is wrong.
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alterego55
"Always intended to be a factual statement"
05:27 PM on 09/22/2010
Huh? Sorry, I don't get your inference.
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TYRANNASAURUS
UGH!....people don't taste good.
12:04 PM on 09/21/2010
EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE IS MADE UP OF TRILLIONS OF ATOMS CONTAINING GOOGLE'S OF STRINGS WITH 99.99999 OF THE HUMAN BODY INCLUDING THE BRAIN BEING EMPTY SPACE ..... SINCE WE'RE NOT REALLY HERE IS ANYTHING WE SEE OR CONCEIVE OF REALLY HERE OR IS THIS ALL JUST ELECTRICAL IMPULSES CREATING A FANTASY OF NOTHING THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED?
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whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
04:20 PM on 09/21/2010
I guess you have to shout to be heard in all that empty space.
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TYRANNASAURUS
UGH!....people don't taste good.
06:20 PM on 09/21/2010
SOUND DOESN'T TRAVEL IN EMPTY SPACE.....
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alterego55
"Always intended to be a factual statement"
05:54 PM on 09/21/2010
The number is far more than trillions. And yes, atoms are mostly empty space. We are not made up of strings, assuming you meant string theory. You moron.
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TYRANNASAURUS
UGH!....people don't taste good.
06:00 PM on 09/21/2010
DIDN'T MEAN STRINGS IN THAT WAY.....OLD UNWISE ONE.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
iblogleft
Certifiable
10:20 AM on 09/21/2010
I never took the term "Observer" as someone or something that was there to be a witness.

An observer is a secondary interaction object. To create this Universe, there must have been at least 2 others to interact and create a third. Gravity is the "dimensional goo" that makes multi-universe interaction possible.

Yes, math is in every universe, only the variables change, not the basic principals. One star plus one star is two stars in any universe. It may take less mass to create gravity in that universe, or mass could actually repel objects instead of attract, but the math is still the same.

Imagine in universe one, so much gravity that it actually slowed time and space, and in universe two, in exactly the same space, gravity became so strong that it also bent time and space, aligning both universes at one singular point. When these two universes meet, they become observers and interact, exchanging all mathematically possible matter into subatomic strings that actually create matter in a different form (because of the different universal constants) and are pulled through the string that attaches them together. This is how I believe universes exchange matter, and sometimes actually create matter in new spaces in new times (new universes).

But there will always be the question of what or who made the first one.
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whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
03:17 PM on 09/21/2010
"I never took the term "Observer" as someone or something that was there to be a witness.
An observer is a secondary interaction object." Sounds like a politician talking. I guess it all depends on what the definition of is is.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
edgraham
There is no magic
08:41 AM on 09/23/2010
...and who or what made who or what?
10:03 AM on 09/21/2010
The author finds what are legitimate questions about current understanding of physics, but then uses a lot of "seems like" conjecture whenever a small hole in our current understanding is found. And for an article criticizing "metaphysical assumptions," there are a lot of assumptions concerning this very topic in the author's ideas, such as assumptions concerning what are possible natures of reality, or assumptions concerning what qualifies "existence."

I may sound pedantic repeating this, but while the author raises interesting alternative points of view and legitimate holes in current understandings, he then fills these holes with his own vague conjecture about "creators" and "transcendent realms," which have very little justification aside from the fact that there are flaws with Hawking's ideas.

I apologize if I've understood the article incorrectly, I'm tired and distracted, but one further flaw with the arguments presented in the article, and this has been mentioned by other commenters, is that the author assumes a Platonistic view of mathematics, or at least assumes that the only view of mathematics besides what he proposes is such a Platonistic one. To some extent, the author is arguing from the framework of pre-Analytic, or at least pre-contemporary, metaphysics.
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whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
03:14 PM on 09/21/2010
I don't think Deepak assumes a Platonistic view of mathematics, he thinks that Hawking assumes it. The Platonistic philosophy of mathematics is as I understand it widely accepted by mathematicians even if it is pre-analytic or pre-contemporary as you say. As an engineering manager my group spent 20 years and millions of dollars developing mathematical models to predict the behavior of the phenomena we were interested in. We just could not get t get the mathematics to conform to observations from the real world system. Right now I am being asked to take Hawking's multiple universes on faith. Show me the beef.
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DiogenesOfAlaska
Mitt Romney for president - of the Cayman islands!
04:46 PM on 09/22/2010
My impression is that the authors claim that Hawking's position logically presupposes platonism with respect to mathematical objects unless it wants to fall back on god as a creator.

What they point out is that you first need the mathematics of all those probabilities to get the nothing started (and all the spontaneous symmetry breaking and all that voodoo).

So even if you had indeed eliminated the need for a creator, you would still need mathematics and would still have no answer to why mathematics is the way it is.

Unless you believe in the necessary existence of mathematical objects, which is platonism.

What they say is that then you may as well believe in consciousness from the get-go.
02:14 AM on 10/12/2010
You are right. There is no beef in Hawking's book. Only replacement of theology with another form of theology ("multiverse" and infinity of universes). Which is fine, as long as he told us that's what he was doing. I have hard time understanding this one universe of ours, much less 10^500 of them!
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DiogenesOfAlaska
Mitt Romney for president - of the Cayman islands!
06:23 AM on 09/23/2010
(cont'd from back at the bottom of the thread)

To be more precise: we DO know that we're not capable of understanding everything. At least if there's enough room in the universe for arithmetic. That's a proven theorem.

What's still possible is that the universe is finite. And it's also important to notice that for any GIVEN problem, incompleteness doesn't tell us anything about whether we can figure it out or not. Incompleteness only refers to the totality of all knowledge and how we organize it.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
edgraham
There is no magic
09:56 AM on 09/21/2010
There always seems to be an attempt to balance theoretical physics with some metaphysical concept in your writings. There is no evidence of anything metaphysical.

If you believe in a greater power, fine, but if you expect other people to "believe," prove it. Prove anything, prove somthing.
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alterego55
"Always intended to be a factual statement"
01:07 PM on 09/21/2010
If you believe in a greater power, fine, but if you expect other people to "believe," prove it. Prove anything, prove som[e]thing.
------------------------------------------------
Crickets.
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rmabelis
07:43 AM on 09/21/2010
In simple terms quantum physics is metaphysically neutral. How you interpret the observed phenomenon depends on what you think is the ultimate nature of reality. Those who believe in God will find God. Those who do not believe in God will not find God.
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alterego55
"Always intended to be a factual statement"
01:13 PM on 09/21/2010
Don't confuse faith with logic. Logic is provable and repeatable. Faith is based upon emotional belief. Every sort of atrocity and righteous act can and has been committed in the name of faith.
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whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
02:59 PM on 09/21/2010
I think your point about faith and logic is true. But here is the rub, modern scientific cosmology is so arcane, surreal and based of mathematical rather than observable constructs that our "logic" in a formal, philosophical sense can no longer cope with it. These mathematical speculations about multiple universes have their own bizarre "logic" that so far cannot be proved and repeated in the sense of experimental or observational data. So I have a choice between sacred texts, invisible omnipotent beings and high priests in a cathedral or obscure mathematics, invisible force fields and high priests working in a lab. At the moment I have to take both on faith. As Deepak stated, "The fallacy here is that Hawking, Mlodinow, and many other theorists assume that mathematics exists outside of the mind that creates theories. A profound metaphysical assumption is being swept under the rug."
02:24 PM on 09/22/2010
How is logic provable? Logic is a framework of symbols.

All A is B
All B is C
All C is A.

Things can be "logical" and still not conform to an external "reality." Take this example:

If Napoleon won the Gettysburg Campaign, then Napoleon will become the Queen of Spain.
Napoleon won the Gettysburg Campagin.
Therefore, Napoleon is now the Queen of Spain.

Perfectly logical hypothetical syllogism. But false, nonetheless. Don't confuse "logic" (a neutral framework that has nothing to do with "truth") with reality.
lastpost
see biography
07:12 AM on 09/21/2010
“given the scientific esteem of Stephen Hawking”
Let us pray that his research far exceeds the level of proficiency displayed in his television documentary. His reasoning concerning alien lifeforms seems based on this assumption: I can deduce what other forms are possible on Earth, simply by extrapolating on what I find in an English garden. Other lifeforms would be equipped with a mouth. Since they would require a sustenance input port. Err, like plants you mean Steve?

“no one seems to know what the "M" stands for”
Morons?

“The universe itself has no single history”
An infinite number of different universes would imply that one at least could contain a non-living and thus immortal, animate entity Which primitive inhabitants living there might describe as god. Perhaps this is that universe.


"there seems to be no simple mathematical model or theory that can describe every aspect of the universe”.
One computation to rule them all,
One calculation to find them,
One sum to bring them all
and in academia bind them?

“chaotic inflation”
The Butter-Finger Effect states that an infinitesimal observational error inadvertently committed by a scientist, can magnify. To a point where it has a catastrophic consequence for all humankind.
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whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
01:18 AM on 09/21/2010
"The fallacy here is that Hawking, Mlodinow, and many other theorists assume that mathematics exists outside of the mind that creates theories." So this boils down to an assumption of one philosophy of mathematics as elucidated by Plato? Mathematics is a language of symbols that is used to represent and describe the phenomena found in nature--mathematics is not reality itself. Mathematics does not create reality any more than the "word" of god did in Genesis. As for an observer being necessary to "create" something, I am quite certain that dinosaurs existed even though we were not around to observe them--a little thing called the fossil record. I don't think quantum mechanics really operates at the level of a complete organism much less a complete planet. Mathematics can be used to help us understand the principles of ecology but the phenomena of ecology exist whether we understand them by mathematics or not. The mathematicians involved in these theories have not spent enough time out in nature. Maybe they should become a scout master.
03:42 AM on 09/21/2010
You are quite certain that dinosaurs existed because you are observing them, through the fossil record and other ways. We keep forgetting to include ourselves in the act of experiencing reality, but we are always a part of the equation, even if we pretend to imagine things as if we weren't here.
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whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
10:00 AM on 09/21/2010
Vanity! How did nature got along all those millions of years and go on to create us without any help from us because we didn't exist yet?
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TYRANNASAURUS
UGH!....people don't taste good.
12:28 PM on 09/21/2010
WE'RE NOT HERE NOW, NOTHING IS..............IT'S ALL AN ILLUSION.
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alterego55
"Always intended to be a factual statement"
02:35 PM on 09/21/2010
The Earth could be blown to smitherenes next week. Yet creation as we know it will continue long after our consciousness is gone. It has nothing to do with a homocentric God.
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whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
02:44 PM on 09/21/2010
I think I agree with you 55.
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McGuffin18
The best lack all conviction...
01:18 AM on 09/21/2010
Interesting article. To me, mathematics is a useful tool for understanding physical properties, but can never be ultimate tool to explain everything. The fact that pi, and Euler's number, and so many constants are unresolvable is enough to make that plain. To the idea that numbers can "explain" things what always comes to mind is: "This is not pipe."

Simplistic I know but I don't have much time and have to go.

Also, in the context of "Instead there seems to be the network of theories called M-theory (or what we may term a "theory of theories")" - the M stands for Meta.
12:04 AM on 09/21/2010
"We prefer the former view, and upon serious consideration, we believe this view may actually be more compatible with science."

Key words: "prefer", and "believe". But the scientific process is not concerned with what we prefer to think or want to believe, Dr. Chopra. It goes where the evidence leads. And that, fundamentally, is the difference between science and religion -- oops, I mean "metaphysics".
02:24 AM on 10/12/2010
And could you please tells us what is the evidence of 10^500 universes (or even much, much larger number) existing and most of them not containing life? How would we ever know? That is the ultimate metaphysics. "We prefer the former view..." because it is simpler and more conforming to pure reason. As Einstein said, theories are "free inventions of the mind". But he also used the power of reason to get to the right theory (e.g. general relativity).
There is NO evidence for multiverses or M-theory. They, like all theories, are free inventions of the mind, which is fine. What is not fine is the total lack of empirical evidence. And that is unscientific.
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12:04 AM on 09/21/2010
The two-part article by Chopra/Kafatos (CK) is a fascinating argument about the merits of the questions raised by "The Grand Design". In order to be able to think further about the questions raised by CK, it would be important to receive clarification about some of the points raised in this two-part rejoinder:

1. It appears that CK are dissatisfied by what they perceive as Hawking/Mlodinow's (HM) conception of a transcendental reality, and wish to substitute it with their own. CK state: "If that is correct, as it is generally agreed it is, then one can assert a transcendent realm." What do the authors mean by a transcendental realm, and is such a realm independent of observers?

2. I think one of the key moves by HM is to eliminate time from the beginning of the universe (page 134) . If we accept this formulation, then it will no longer be possible to think of such sentences as "God exists", or "God created the world", as both verbs exist and create involve the element of time. In a sense, they propose quite a radical move as they make the very questions of the existence of and creation by a transcendent God unaskable (same as the word unquestionable, but without the frills). It would be interesting to know how CK address the point raised by HM about the absence of time at the beginning.
11:37 PM on 09/20/2010
Dr. Chopra,

You write:

"As such, the infinite transcendent presence from which space-time and all waves arise is the immeasurable potential of all that was, is and will be. As such, these waves of possibility allow an infinitely complex set of actualities to emerge. Hawking and Mlodinow remain ambiguous on an issue that could be the very crux of the matter."

My question is: have you proven the existence of this "infinite transcendent presence?" The lack of a theory or an explanation about the metaphysical nature of our universe does not automatically qualify for an intelligent designer. I am presuming from your writing that you are an advocate of intelligent design. Have you proved the existence of this intelligent being? How did this being come into existence? How do you solve the problem of infinite regress implied in postulating the existence of a creator?

Using my own post as an example, it is so easy to discredit someone else's theory or postulates but so hard to come up with one's own original thought that is provable. This is not the moksha through knowledge that the ancient seers had in mind when they postulated the theory of Brahman and the end of rebirth. Make a provable assertion of your theories. A Hindu seer in 2500 or 1500 BC making mystical statements had a reason and excuse. What is yours?
02:30 AM on 10/12/2010
There is another possibility: The entire universe contains mind, it is a noetic universe. No one can prove the existence of the intelligent being outside of the universe that you are referring to. But also no one can disprove it. That is the point. Science is different than metaphysics (even though it is based on metaphysics--which means outside space time or assumptions of reality). Hawking and Mlodinow claim they don't need metaphysics but they need it as much or more as religious types. It is of a different kind but still metaphysics.
11:55 AM on 10/12/2010
First rule of logic. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the assertion. Chopra made the assertion of "infinite transcendental presence." It is his job to prove its existence -- not mine to disprove it.

Any metaphysics that outside of space, time and assumptions of reality cannot be TRUE. That is like taking the basis of taking all truth, logic, thinking and denying the basis. Truth means correspondence to reality (yes and it has to be consistent too but coherence is the primary criteria). Don't know what you mean by metaphysics (or what Chopra means by it or what H&M mean by it). To me metaphysics is a branch of philosophy that describes the general nature of reality -- that's all.
11:27 PM on 09/20/2010
Provocative thoughts here! It is fascinating to ponder the currently unknowable. I've come to feel that consciousness in all it's variety have evolved over nearly infinite Big Bangs and survive on some sort of etheric level even through the implosion/explosions. And this consciousness proceeds again to seed the universe when conditions allow. And possibly God is really just the aggregate of all knowledge past and present. This wisdom is available should we choose. Yet we forget our connectedness to Source and proceed to live in a material world, choosing tactile pleasures out of balance with the greater good. Since matter is aware of our intent, I suggest we implement more noble intentions.