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Deepak Chopra

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Which Is Real, the Moon or God?

Posted: 03/22/10 10:10 PM ET

Most people have spent at least a few minutes pondering a famous riddle, although they may not know that it originated in Zen Buddhism: If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? Strangely, this turns out to be a pivotal question if you want to prove that God exists, or doesn't.

I want to explain the whole issue in detail, but if you want to view a vigorous and often contentious debate about God and whether He has a future, ABC Nightline is running Tuesday (March 23). The Nightline episode contains only excerpts, but the full debate will be available online at Nightline/FaceOff/ The location was at Cal Tech, where God probably isn't a pressing topic compared to quantum physics. Yet as it turns out, the two are vitally linked. What you think about reality depends on quantum physics, and since God is the ultimate reality, His existence hinges on such things as waves and particles.

This wasn't a crude argument between believers and non-believers. It was an attempt to see if the most up-to-date science made God's existence unlikely, which is what atheists led by Richard Dawkins believe. Taking that position in the debate was Dr. Michael Shermer, the editor of Skeptics magazine, and Sam Harris, author of Letter to a Christian Nation. As staunch materialists, they offered a simple attack on God -- nothing is scientifically valid unless it can be seen and measured. Since God has no physical presence in the world, there can be no measurement of His existence. Without a physical presence, the deity is reduced to being subjective. Millions of people were taught to believe in a supreme being. If they paid attention to science, they'd realized that their faith has no real basis.

On the other side, I and my partner, the noted philosopher and writer Jean Houston, rejected materialism. We held that science is about objective data, but human beings have rich internal experiences that are valid. These experiences give rise to art, morality, psychology, and everyday things like love, truth, honor, and so on. Is science really in a position to call human experience itself wrong if it cannot be seen and measured? Our opponents of course argue that ethics, values, meaning, and purpose are all reducible to brain phenomena. While we hold that brain phenomena are merely representations of consciousness and not the experience itself.

Yet it was obvious to me and Jean that God has been greatly undermined by materialist science, and also by organized religion, with its simplistic Sunday school lessons about a bearded patriarch sitting on His throne above the clouds. (The very notion that God is referred to as He implies gender, which a supreme being couldn't have if such a being is beyond time and space.) No, God can't have a future until the arguments against Him are discredited, and as it happens, rank materialism has been dismantled by science itself, and in particular by quantum physics.

Here, the discussion gets rather technical, but let's venture forward on a basic question. Does the moon exist if no one is there to see it? This was the last topic our debate arrived at, and afterwards Dr. Shermer and I continued to discuss it, not as adversaries in a heated debate but in hopes of reaching some kind of understanding or common ground. (Shermer's summary of our discussion can be found here )

The common sense notion is that of course the moon exists without human beings to look at it. It existed long before life on Earth; it will be around if human folly wipes out our species in some possible future. People aren't going to be argued out of common sense, no matter how tricky your science or philosophy. Yet, surprisingly, physics starts to fall apart if you cling too stubbornly to common sense.

One of the most famous quips about quantum physics is that it isn't stranger than you imagine -- it's stranger than you can imagine. This is because quantum physics disposed of raw materialism long ago, showing that solid objects are made up of invisible waves of energy, and those waves themselves disappear into clouds of mere possibilities. Every rock, tree, and cloud is made up of molecules, which in turn are made up of atoms, and they in turn are made up of elementary particles like electrons, protons, and neutrons.

It would be consistent with common sense if these particles, and the subatomic particles that they can be broken down into, were solid and stable in spacetime. But they aren't. Thanks to two breakthrough ideas -- the Uncertainty Principle and the Observer Effect -- nothing in Nature can be seen as solid and fixed in spacetime. The Uncertainty Principle says, in its simplest terms, that you cannot know the position of a particle and its momentum at the same time. The observer effect says that particles are only a superposition of possibility waves until a non-material observer causes them to collapse from one state, a wave, into another, a particle.

Already I can see readers glazing over, but these are important points for the existence of God and also for our existence. All solid objects exist, in essence, as invisible waves that extend infinitely in all directions. When an observer enters the picture, the wave collapses into a point, and that point is a spacetime event -- or a particle -- that you can measure. So it turns out that looking at a virtual electron (waves) causes it to appear as an actual electron (particle).

Is the same true of the moon? Does it appear because consciousness is collapsing possibility waves as the moon?

On the side of materialism, Shermer and many others say no. Quantum behavior, or as Shermer calls it "Quantum weirdness," is confined to the microscopic world. It doesn't leak into the macroscopic world of rocks, trees, clouds -- and the moon. But there are three weaknesses in this argument:

1. Recent discoveries have produced quantum weirdness on the macroscopic level. See this article about "supersizing" quantum mechanics

2. Quantum physics is behind all kinds of technologies used in the big everyday world: transistors, superconductors, experiments with superfluids. There are even cutting-edge experiments with time travel and teleportation, very Star Trek, although so far the results are on the level of light beams, not Scottie and Captain Kirk.

3. Most crucial of all, if you don't allow quantum phenomenon to interact with the big world, you run into a huge problem with physics itself. Quantum physics is the basis of our macroscopic physical world, so there has to be an interaction, even if that interaction is not fully understood.

Now we are getting somewhere in undermining the certainty that makes materialists too stubborn and certain of themselves. If you don't admit that the moon is behaving in a quantum fashion, that's a bit like saying that red blood cells absorb oxygen but the human body as a whole doesn't. The part and the whole must conform to each other. Having kicked a few rungs out of the materialist position, it's now possible to see what the alternative may be.

The basic understanding of the collapse of the wave function is called the Copenhagen Interpretation, in which a non-material observer is involved in quantum measurement. John von Neumann demonstrated that an understanding of the collapse of the wave function requires consciousness. Without an observer, there is no collapse, no particle, no matter, no measurement. Alternative quantum theories such as transactional interpretation and many-worlds theory try to get around the need of consciousness or an observer, but fail in the end. Essentially they don't fulfill the requirements of quantum physics because any quantum measuring device still must be physical and ultimately exist as quantum wave probabilities. One set of measuring waves superimposed on other waves to be measured, only leaves more waves, not particles, not a quantified measurement. And as Niels Bohr makes clear, in quantum mechanics, if it isn't measureable it isn't real. So in spite of these newer quantum speculations, no one has been able to successfully dispense with a non-material observer.

Physics says that the observer causes the collapse of the wave function, the vital step that turns invisible, infinitely expanding probabilities into real events. But the word "cause" leads to trouble. It cannot be that human beings literally cause the moon to appear, for the simple reason that it was here before us. Common sense doesn't seem wrong about that. We can escape this difficulty rather easily, however, by proposing that the observer effect isn't about individual human beings, or even biological sentience. It's about non-local consciousness, because what the observer adds to the equation is that human beings are conscious of the events they participate in. Non-local consciousness localizes through our nervous system. The observer is non-local consciousness, and that consciousness collapses its own possibility waves into a measurable event.

Materialists say "who cares?" They fail to realize that without consciousness, you cannot have the universe. But we aren't talking about you and me as conscious people. We are talking about a field of consciousness that creates, maintains, and deconstructs all things. In other words, God. The moon exists as an invisible wave function because consciousness has that property. Whenever and wherever non-local consciousness interacts with the wave function we call the moon, the wave function collapses and the wave reality of the "moon" becomes the localized moon. Non-local consciousness can collapse the wave function and create matter whether it is mediated through a biological organism or not.

Right now you possess a vocabulary, either large or small. It is invisible, and no one knows where it exists. Your brain isn't using any energy to hold your vocabulary, yet at any time you want, you can pluck a word out of its invisible state and cause a tangible event: you say the word, or think it or choreograph it into a sentence. Every time we think and say something, we experience our non-local consciousness collapsing a spacetime event out of an abstract field of potential expressions.

Likewise, consciousness produces visible events from invisible possibilities. Physics knows that such transformations exist. Indeed, the entire universe, at the subatomic level, is winking in and out of existence thousands of times a second. Where does the universe go when it blinks out of sight? Into the superposition of possibility waves, the quantum realm. And when it comes back from this invisible sojourn, guess what? The universe has changed. It isn't the same as before it disappeared. Which means that all change in space and time -- the blooming of a rose, the sudden desire to eat chocolate, the birth of a star, or the birth of a work of art -- actually occurs out of sight.

Now we arrive at the moment when the rabbit can be pulled out of the hat. God is the rabbit. If there is infinite consciousness upholding the physical universe, if that consciousness is intelligent and creative, God has a future. Only He isn't a he. He isn't a person sitting above the clouds. Instead, God is the field of consciousness that creates, governs, and controls the manifest world. This consciousness has an invisible aspect beyond space and time. We can posit that because there was no space or time before the Big Bang, yet there had to be something that allowed the universe and the laws of nature to coalesce with such amazing orderliness than with the slightest deviation, life could not have evolved.

Consciousness, or God, also permeates creation once it appeared. We know this because we partake of consciousness, creativity, and intelligence. Where could we get those qualities if God, the source of consciousness, were gone? To give God a future, you must give consciousness a place in the universe as a primary ingredient, not an element that appeared by chance when the human brain evolved.

And the moon? It exists as an event in consciousness, first and foremost. Because you are also conscious, you not only see the moon, but you participate in the field from which the moon arises. At the core of existence, consciousness operates with no separation of observer, observed, and the process of observation. They come as a three-in-one package. The fallacy all along was to assume that the observer could be erased from the picture. He can't. Consciousness observes itself, and it observes its creations. God does the same thing, which is why sages have wondered if everything doesn't take place in God's mind. Ultimately, it does. But you have to adopt a new model of God that is consciousness-based. Once you do, a host of issues becomes clear. Not just about the moon, but about human beings and what our own future will be like.

Deepak Chopra on Intent.com
deepakchopra.com

 
 
 

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Most people have spent at least a few minutes pondering a famous riddle, although they may not know that it originated in Zen Buddhism: If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, d...
Most people have spent at least a few minutes pondering a famous riddle, although they may not know that it originated in Zen Buddhism: If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, d...
 
 
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06:11 AM on 03/31/2010
After presenting Einstein, the “deeply religious nonbeliever” http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_einstein.html as sharing his view about existence of a God, Deepak Chopra claims that The Uncertainty Principle supports his claim for a certainty of the existence of a “God”.

News from the John Templeton Foundation May 28, 2009 refute both assertions:

MYTH-BUSTING, FROM GALILEO TO HEISENBERG

Matthew Stanley of New York University examines Albert Einstein's declarations about the divine and concludes that he did not believe in a personal God. "To Einstein," Stanley writes, "divine judgment and the efficacy of prayer seemed completely implausible in light of the consistency of science."

And Daniel Patrick Thurs, the author of Science Talk: Changing Notions of Science in American Popular Culture, shows why various 20th-century mystics are mistaken in trying to find "room for spirituality" in the "jostling and overlapping possibilities" of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

http://www.templeton.org/templeton_report/20090528/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Templeton_Foundation
12:01 AM on 03/31/2010
No matter how you spin it, God doesn't exist.
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Enea
Reason above all else.
05:57 PM on 03/30/2010
chopra is a scam artist. He seeks out the gullible and the ignorant to sell the bullshit voo-doo medicine and such nonsense, pure pseudo-science.

You believe him at your won risk, but truly you would be no better than believing zeus, the christian god, the islamic god, the jewish god, or any other god for that matter. Just ignore the rapes and all is peaches.
02:35 PM on 03/30/2010
irony is that some worship moon god ..deepak's hiding the facts
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terragazelle60
12:14 AM on 03/31/2010
Moon Goddess.
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02:11 AM on 03/30/2010
To quote George Carlin:

I worship the Sun but I pray to Joe Pesci.
04:04 PM on 03/29/2010
"No, God can't have a future until the arguments against Him are discredited, and as it happens, rank materialism has been dismantled by science itself, and in particular by quantum physics."

No. Science cannot dismantle materialism because science is based on materialism. Without materialism there would be no internet on which Mr. Chopra could post his theories.
02:28 PM on 03/29/2010
Take Rene Descartes' "cogito ergo sum", add a pinch of Intelligent Design, a dash of Yoga meditation, and you get . . .

"Right now you possess a vocabulary, either large or small. It is invisible, and no one knows where it exists. Your brain isn't using any energy to hold your vocabulary, yet at any time you want, you can pluck a word out of its invisible state and cause a tangible event: you say the word, or think it or choreograph it into a sentence. Every time we think and say something, we experience our non-local consciousness collapsing a spacetime event out of an abstract field of potential expressions." - Deepak Chopra

"Your brain isn't using any energy to hold your vocabulary"?

Are you sure about that Deepak? These guys over at the American College of Neuropsychopharmachology seem to disagree with your findings. Better get over there and straingten them out.

http://www.acnp.org/g4/gn401000064/CH064.HTML
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DAE
09:43 PM on 03/28/2010
So tell me, what is this god you believe in? Universal consciousness? What does that mean? Do I need to accept its existence to lead a good and purposeful life full off joy and wonder? No. As a materialist do I understand the world I live in? No. I can only understand the mere fraction of reality that is accessible to my senses and the instruments humankind as developed to enhance their powers. But we know so much more than we did in the past and will know so much more in the future. Do I appreciate the mystery of existence? Yes. Existence in and of itself is the greatest of all mysteries, with or without your god or gods.
12:03 AM on 03/29/2010
We know more STUFF now than in the past, but we're not smarter -- and certainly not wiser.

Our lifestyle, in this country anyway, -- the one we're exporting all over the world -- is preposterous in its stressfulness and relentless in its consumerism. Our economic theories are bunk -- not only riddled with Escher-like illusions -- but completely unsustainable in the long run -- and yet we think we're SOOOO brilliant -- so advanced.

Every age and culture thinks that of itself. And the future? It's not going to be any different.
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DAE
01:14 AM on 03/29/2010
Wouldn't argue with you. Its what we do with what we know that counts. And we're doing a pretty bad job of using the knowledge we've gained so far.
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Jay Patel
09:22 AM on 03/29/2010
Jozzie,

Excellent point. The modern world mistakes information with knowledge and movement with progress. If movement and expansion mean progress that would mean cancer and HIV are making great progress since they are spreading so fast.
In Hinduism, the modern age is called the Kali yuga meaning the age of darkness. There are references to this dark age in all religions. Its a spiritual dark age where the material world is understood really well, but the wisdom and essence of what it means to be human has been virtually eradicated. And materialism, the greatest disease in human history, is at the root cause of it. We think we have made so much progress by putting man on the moon, while losing peace, sanity, and wisdom here on earth. What a crock.
Deepak Chopra is right, the likes of Dawkins and company are nothing more than fundamentalist jihadists of a science that is as backward as the flat earthers.
As the brilliant philosopher Frithjof Schuon observed, "Material science is the most intelligent way of being an ignorant fool"
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copestir
09:33 PM on 03/28/2010
Is Deepak Chopra real or is God? I wonder that when I embrace the moon light at night, and feel the warm spring sun during the day. Breath deeply let the air out, breathe again and ask, "Is Deepak Chopra real or is God?" I must say God, he uses less words.
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Jay Patel
05:03 PM on 03/28/2010
I believe it was Frithjof Schuon, the foremost perennial philosopher and metaphysician of the 20th century who made a brilliant observation that pretty much summs up materialism--
"material sceince is the most intellegint way of being an ignorant fool"
Materialists like Harris, Dawkins, and the rest of them and their ideas belong in the intellectual landfill of civilization and frankly should be ignored as the modern day version of flat earthers. Plain and simple!!!
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
ConfuciusSay-
Aglets: their purpose is sinister.
11:12 AM on 03/30/2010
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8593748.stm

Your opinion is the product of electrical activity. It can be changed by rational argument, introspection, a new experience, a few shots of whiskey, and evidently by a short magnetic pulse.

You are as material as I am, and our thoughts just as evanescent.
04:47 PM on 03/28/2010
Excellent. I agree with everything. Well and clearly stated. Kudos.
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rf dude
Just an average Man of Bronze - now in Steel!
01:32 AM on 03/28/2010
Meh - whatever gets you through the day.

I don't know from building a jet plane, but the ride is fantastic nevertheless...
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topkatnc
Give a stray cat or dog a chance .
09:50 AM on 03/29/2010
Randall Flag ?
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Redwood Eagle
Treehugging, Hippy, Druid Grandfather
11:41 PM on 03/27/2010
I believe in God because I believe in me. And in you. "'Thou art God.' It's not a message of cheer and hope. It's a defiance--and an unafraid unabashed assumption of personal responsibility." --Mike to Jubal, SIASL by Robert A. Heinlein More at http://mithrilstar.org
08:15 PM on 03/27/2010
Following Mr. Chopra's logic, and his insistence that the moon follows quantum laws, if everyone stops looking at the moon at the same time, it changes into an infinite wave form.

This is hard to understand, but Mr. Chopra has a degree, so he must know what he's talking about. When did the moon first turn into the moon, I wonder? For a very long time, no one with eyes lived on Earth, so it must have been a wave form for all those billions of years. And how did it stay with the earth, being a wave and not subject to gravity, which does not work at the quantum level - very interesting.

All of this "macro objects obey the rules of quantum mechanics" explains so much. It explains why the inside of my body, which no one can see, is not solid but wavelike. And why my skin hardens whenever anyone looks at me, but then turns back into a wave form when they look away. Or at least the parts that are exposed do. And it explains why no one can know both my position and my momentum.
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Soulmentor
"To thine own self be true...."
03:18 PM on 03/28/2010
*********For a very long time, no one with eyes lived on Earth, so it must have been a wave form for all those billions of years.*********

Not necessarily. There were other living creatures with sight and no doubt "saw" the moon so......

There's no end to this intellectual exercise. It can be intriguing but ultimately gets us nowhere because, tho we advance in knowledge, our finite mind, by it's very nature, can never grasp the infinite. I'm content to enjoy the moon as it plays on the body of a lover or feel the warm breeze on my naked body. I don't need to know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
04:47 PM on 03/28/2010
You so didn't read the article.
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Soulmentor
"To thine own self be true...."
09:37 PM on 03/28/2010
I read most of it but by the last two paragraphs I realized I wasn't grasping it. I'm intelligent and intellectual, but quantum physics mostly escapes me. It's concept is infinite which was my point. Which is to say there is no point. There is no answer to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
I think I understand Jesus silence when asked,"What is truth."
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david5000
Detective & Pilot
05:27 AM on 03/29/2010
I read the article, but since you are not real, I shall ignore you and nobody will care.however since you do not have a gender or form and you are only you because you were created by typing on a keyboard, you are a thought like a word or a song in my mind and other people's mind simultaneously .

However, when you are not in our thoughts, you take form and become you the person that you are in your own mind and you project it that image on people who will see you.

I wonder what Sarah Palin think about all this.
03:57 PM on 03/26/2010
The entire argument about "seeing" an omnipotent deity is utterly ridiculous and negligable.

You cant see the wind but you can see its actions. Thats science. Apply that science to God.

Well? What do you see? A man who let his Son be CRUCIFIED to make a point. A "father" that is so incompetent at raising his children he creates a book full of horrible frightening tales to frighten them into the proper behavior, behavior that he, an omnipotent being, could not attain from his own CREATION in any other manner than VIOLENCE, THREATS, DESTRUCTION and FEAR. Do you train your Dog by beating the crap out of it when it pees on the rug? Do you train your children by killing their friends when they misbehave? These are the actions of your own God in his own words (?) in the bible. A God that DEMANDS TO BE WORSHIPPED from the very same creations he subjects to random acts of violence and grief.

I dont need to SEE YOUR GOD to know that if he did exist he is a God of ATROCITIES. A God incabable of inciting decent and fair behavior from the overwhelming majority of his own primitive and flwawed CREATIONS. Go beat the crap out of your kids and then tell them to love and worship you - thats your GOD.
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MoreDimensions
05:22 PM on 03/27/2010
I hope you resolve the anger.
08:20 PM on 03/27/2010
Christians never actually address the points people like UberReagonite bring up - they switch the subject, and pretend to be concerned about anger or grammor or morals or something.

What do you have to say to his actual comments? I have read the Bible - what he says it says, it says. How do you stay a Christian with a horrid book like that underpinning your theology?
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WICKET99
skeptic
11:33 PM on 03/27/2010
Some of us are damned angry - at being force-fed this pablum from birth.
04:48 PM on 03/28/2010
You also SO didn't read the article.