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Dennis Santiago

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Reviewing the Bidding About "Stand Your Ground"

Posted: 04/27/2012 1:41 pm

Recent high-profile current events have called into question legal statutes commonly known as "Stand Your Ground" laws. Sparked by a frenzy of media coverage of a shooting in Florida that is now thankfully winding its way through the real court system, pundits have engaged in weeks of knee jerk tabloid rhetoric. The press and social media would have you believe that fifty years of social progress in the Unites States never happened. A good deal of the rhetoric draws on overtones from issues that, while meaningful to the American experience, are just projections by the minds of others upon the actions of the principals involved.

Regardless of the noise, I believe that those calling for a review of these laws have a point. America is a social experiment that should never be afraid to examine itself in the mirror, no matter how uncomfortable that look into our souls almost always is. I believe that to properly reflect on these laws we need to look at them from three angles that lend clarity to what is useful about them, and to what needs to be done to balance the needs they address with the social issues they raise.

On the Question of Legitimate Self-Defense

The real world has very real dangers and "Stand Your Ground" laws are, first and foremost, legal affirmations of the right of people to defend themselves against crime. These laws were specifically designed to strengthen the legal protections afforded the defender in the aftermath of a criminal confrontation, and are heavily in favor of their actions to resist predation up to and including the use of deadly force. State law in the United States is far from uniform, and not all jurisdictions recognized this right, and in some cases would prosecute persons who defended themselves -- victimizing them a second time.

The primary innovation of these latest iterations of laws is that they extend the right to defend oneself beyond home or place of business, the so-called Castle Doctrine, to defending oneself anywhere a criminal attempts to victimize them. To be effective, these laws require what is called a "credible deterrent." This is why they tend to be enacted in parallel with changes in firearms laws that facilitate equipping a person with a workable means to defend himself against violent, armed criminals. Regardless of one's views on gun control, from a tactical perspective there is little to refute the notion that the tool of choice against a criminal with a firearm is, in fact, another firearm wielded by a defender with superior weapons proficiency. And so we see the emergence of statutes that are generally known as Concealed Carry Weapons (CCW) Permit laws, which in most jurisdictions come with an elevated training requirement in order to obtain said permit.

The combination of the two thus creates a crime risk management regime based on principles of deterrence against predation that equalize the engagement odds, significantly raise the perception of risk to the criminal, incent them to ply their illicit trade elsewhere and, as a last recourse, increase the attrition rate of violent criminals over time. In case you haven't figured it out yet, this is not meant to be a politically polite narrative that coddles a sub-culture of wrongdoers.

An operative aspect of these laws is that society does not actually need 100 percent of the population to take on a stand-your-ground outlook and armed-carry lifestyle to achieve the desired criminal deterrence effect. In fact, only a small portion of the public needs do so to create sufficient uncertainty of risk in the mind of the criminal sufficient to alter behavior patterns. The rest of society can free ride, even disdainfully so, so long as they don't advertise that they are a helpless mark.

This brings up the first policy question. Regardless of whether you participate or free ride, do you believe that law-abiding citizens should, or should not, be able to resist crime in a manner unfettered by laws that restrict or punish them for doing so? If you do, then the direction of the evolution of these SYG laws and their accompanying CCW laws should make some -- even if uncomfortable -- sense to you.

On the Question of Acceptable Conduct in Non-Defensive Confrontational Situations

If there's a hole in the design of the SYG + CCW laws it's that it is too silent on the expectations of conduct by persons in confrontational but not defensive situations. These laws were designed for the purpose of enabling lethal-force-level defense against violent criminal threats.

Where these laws are running into problems seems to be in situations which the laws were not originally designed for. For instance, situations where the problem is philosophical, political or emotional should probably be more strongly tied to a burden of extraordinary proof of attempts by both parties to de-escalate the situation, extract from the situation, or otherwise lose gracefully. Similarly, persons creating potentially violence escalating scenarios where other pathways for solving the problem are available would seem to merit looking at additional statutory treatment. An armed individual does seem to me have an extraordinary responsibility to be part of at least attempting in good faith to manage down the tensions of the moment. Well, actually, don't we all have a responsibility as fellow citizens to do that anyway?

This brings up the second policy question. How does one engage all parties in a constructive dialog to add a new body of legal guidance to further define the circumstances and expectations of people in confrontational, but not defensive, situations? Our cultural differences combined with our hot heads do bring to mind that old Jeffersonian term, "frailties of man." This is a very different line of legislative remedy evolution from the knee jerk calls to junk these laws. But as I ponder the call to action of recent events, this seems to be where work needs to be done.

On the Question of Civility among People of Differing Ideologies

Changes in operational security procedure -- and this is what SYG+ CCW is -- have consequences. These consequences run deeper into our social fabric than we realize. Laws that build a society with a mixture of armed and unarmed citizens bring change to the dynamic of civility among the law abiders. Such a social compact becomes co-dependent in providing for the common defense and -- oh the horror --we actually have to acknowledge goodness in people we may have been otherwise politically uncivil to. People like well-armed minorities, liberals, conservatives, gays and lesbians, Muslims and the catch-all bucket that now apparently includes all white and mixed race folk. They may share only one thing in common. They are all law abiding Americans.

This need to see each other with real tolerance can and does perplex a lot of people. Politicians, lobbyists, academics and really hard core prejudiced -- racial and political -- people in particular would be very threatened if the general population actually discovered how much more we have in common than the spin they use to keep us apart.

All this means that we need to learn how to disagree intellectually -- even passionately so -- while at the same time valuing and respecting each other in those things having to do with our common interests. That can be a lot to ask of a people that have at times confused politics with real life. And it brings us to confronting our last policy question.

Should the expectation of tolerance and civility between citizens become a renewed priority of American domestic policy? In some ways this question asks, is being what makes us American still important to us? It's a vital question that goes to the very heart of our national identity.

If you say yes, it implies changing our political landscape to dismantle or moderate the political institutions and special interests that impede the social connectedness we need. It means altering our human expectations of each other and the subtle cues we give each other in everyday life that help us separate allies from foes on our streets and in our hearts. You can say yes, I'd like to change it so that we see each other through new eyes. If enough people say so, leaders will either fall in line with this consensus or be replaced.

You can also say no, others be damned, I'd rather hang on to my piece of my world. But bear in mind that the history of the world is strewn with examples of this path leading to the very different conclusion of a country much closer to an aristocratic caste which controls the fate of a third-world-style nation of second class citizens. That usually doesn't end well.

 

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Recent high-profile current events have called into question legal statutes commonly known as "Stand Your Ground" laws. Sparked by a frenzy of media coverage of a shooting in Florida that is now thank...
Recent high-profile current events have called into question legal statutes commonly known as "Stand Your Ground" laws. Sparked by a frenzy of media coverage of a shooting in Florida that is now thank...
 
 
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12:58 PM on 05/02/2012
The Tyranny of the NRA has caused this problem. We can stop guns by lighting candles.
12:55 PM on 05/02/2012
As a violence policy advocate, the steps needed to end gun violence are clear.
The First step is to take advantage of high profile incidents.
The Second step is to marginalize legal gun use and historic precedent.
The Third step is to make some guns seem more dangerous than others, even if they are not.
The Fourth step is to register every sale.
The Fifth step is a robust “Shall Issue” permitting process.
The Final step is to encourage and incentivize the forfeiture of arms.
10:59 AM on 05/02/2012
The steps needed to end gun violence.

Step One is to take advantage of high profile incidents that involve guns and to use them to get media time. People make decisions when their emotions are elevated that they would not have considered at other times.

Step Two is to marginalize legal gun use and historic precedent. Police forces should be considered as sufficient without personal security measures. Incidents of the mishandling of guns create doubt about their usefulness and their safe use.

Step Three is to make some guns seem more dangerous than others. Fear could sway the support for banning of some firearms.

Step Four is to register every sale. It’s important to know who owns guns and what type for future reference.

Step Five is a “Shall Issue” permitting process. Police can then decide a person’s eligibility for a permit based on “Good Cause” which can later be legislatively defined to limit carry to those who are law enforcement with further prohibitions as opportunities arise.

The Final step is to encourage and incentivize the forfeiture of arms. If people believe that they no longer have a need for arms and that arms are dangerous to own, they will be more likely to forfeit them. Incentives could include cash or food for information about unlicensed neighbors or family members. Lastly a serious of ongoing compliance inspections based on gun and ammunition sales registration would complete the goal of a world free of gun violence.
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Dennis Santiago
Asymmetric Provocateur
09:44 AM on 05/03/2012
I assume this is satire. It's an excellent recanting of one of the most inane political agendas ever conjured up by a group who's principal aim was and is to create a society where ordinary people live their lives at the convenience of the whims of a self proclaimed aristocracy. It was thought up by a bunch of control freaks who have little regard for the stresses and needs of those they deem to be beneath them. It's complete nonsense because what it actually does is create a police state where everyone is considered permanently suspect. The world has seen the tragic consequences of such thinking far too many times.
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David Carson
05:03 PM on 05/04/2012
it is--this is the newest incarnation of gunbanner
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splashy
Really?!?!!!
05:33 PM on 04/28/2012
All these laws, including the ones that allow private citizens to sell weapons without a background check, are designed to get more and more people to buy weapons, especially guns. It's a market ploy.
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David Carson
05:36 AM on 05/01/2012
then are you willing to open NICS to non FFL holders?
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04:05 PM on 05/01/2012
Hello, splashy: Yes, it is another marketing ploy that coincides additionally and sadly as more and more political clout with our unrepresentative legislatures. The NRA and ALEC have money to burn to buy allegiance in every faction of our nation. NRA and ALEC "model legislation" is undermining public health and safety not only with permissive laws about lethal weapons.
ALECexposed.org
kochbrothersexposed.org
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David Carson
03:23 AM on 05/03/2012
DW--the NRA has influence because it has significant support from the voters unlike the Bradybots---but then again you are notorious for being ill informed and less than honest
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realitytrumpsbull
Two 'alves of coconut!
05:00 PM on 04/28/2012
I think no matter where you live, either in the US or outside of it, you always have the right to defend yourself from people that mean you harm. But, at some point in there, maybe some people translate all of that into the permission to go out, and be vigilante, patrolling and so forth, private little armies, groups, posses, gangs, all that jazz, and eventually, someone gets hurt, or killed like in the Martin/Zimmerman incident. Now, we live in a day and age when there's private security companies, and other entities and organizations, some formal, some not, but they're out there, and some of them like to carry guns and be tough and assert territory and all that kind of thing, and watching lots of television crime shows and the like. Then, someone gets hurt, or killed, or whatever goes on, there, then it's all over the radio, then the story goes away, then it happens again, and...somewhere in there, have we forgotten how to just walk down the street, and be civil? If you see something, and it looks like someone's breaking the law, well, that's what the police dept. is for, the money doesn't just go for donuts and retirement, those people are there, and college trained, for a reason. All you have to do, is pick up the phone. If you pick up a gun, instead, there's a chance that you might be the one that ends up in handcuffs, just like Zimmerman.
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jshop
Come together right now over them.
01:07 PM on 04/29/2012
Thank you!!

Although not all cops are college trained, they are trained in how they are supposed to behave with people (or they're supposed to be) so as not to undermine the public trust -- which vigilantes and other gun-toting hero wannabees have zero concern for.
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04:06 PM on 05/01/2012
Exactly!
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David Carson
03:24 AM on 05/03/2012
js--then why are CCW holders more law abiding and better shots than the LEOs
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David Carson
05:38 AM on 05/01/2012
you are forgetting that there is a legal and ethical between self defense and vigilantism
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jshop
Come together right now over them.
04:35 PM on 04/28/2012
"Regardless of one's views on gun control, from a tactical perspective there is little to refute the notion that the tool of choice against a criminal with a firearm is, in fact, another firearm wielded by a defender with superior weapons proficiency... This brings up the first policy question. Regardless of whether you participate or free ride, do you believe that law-abiding citizens should, or should not, be able to resist crime in a manner unfettered by laws that restrict or punish them for doing so?"

This is a sly rationalization Mr. Santiago makes. I might've accepted it if not for his pejorative use of the phrase, "free ride," as if gun control proponents are cowards enjoying a sense of security they're not entitled to because it is "paid for" by NRA Republicans! This sneering bias sounds like the Conservative meme of the "free ride Liberal" with ineffective, socialist, un-American alternatives. And, it undermines his case.

How? Not all criminals use guns. Even those that do don't announce their ill-intent, giving their targets a chance to self-defend. We, as a society, can neither presume that people will actually acquire adequate gun training nor possess or exercise the best judgement required in a mortal confrontation. And, before asking if we, as a society, believe in self-defense, we need to ask ourselves if we are a society of savages, and if so, to what extent and in which ways will we or won't we be.
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Dennis Santiago
Asymmetric Provocateur
10:38 PM on 04/28/2012
You mistake my use of the term and assign meaning to it that was not intended. The use of the term "free rider" is used solely in the academic analysis sense of an economic beneficiary of the effect by a person or persons who do not participate in the production of said good. I am trying to enumerate the the net cost/benefit elements in play in the process by including all members of society in the calculus. The terminology used is specific to that aim. Please do not assign your political prejudices to what is simply a technical term.
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jshop
Come together right now over them.
12:55 PM on 04/29/2012
I hear what you're saying, and you validated my point when you defined a "free rider" as, "...an economic beneficiary of the effect by a person or persons who do not participate in the production of said good." In other words, a "freeloader." Your argument presumes that everybody should be OK with trained but dangerous animals prowling among them to keep them "safe" because everyone would be obliged to walk on eggshells due to the threat! Absurd! And, in case you did not know, both terms have very bad connotations which do not belong in an "academic analysis" as you put it. Furthermore, you did not address the other more pressing questions you analysis begged. My problem with your viewpoint is that you start from the presumption that common possession of firearms are rightly part of any solution to the profound problems SYG laws present. Yet, your analysis did not mention gun control as an equally viable and perhaps necessary way to mitigate our savage social character.
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
12:00 PM on 05/01/2012
"his pejorative use of the phrase, "free ride," as if gun control proponents are cowards enjoying a sense of security they're not entitled to"

Dennis is quite clear in the article that only some of the people enjoying a "free ride" would be disdainful of concealed carry.

"How? Not all criminals use guns. "

Which means nothing. There is nothing which says you can only use a firearm for self-defense if the attacker uses a firearm.

"Even those that do don't announce their ill-intent, giving their targets a chance to self-defend. "

While this can be true in some cases, it does not change a lot. The defender simply does not draw and fire.

"We, as a society, can neither presume that people will actually acquire adequate gun training nor possess or exercise the best judgement required in a mortal confrontation. "

And yet at least two studies show that armed civilians have a better rate of hitting the criminal and not hitting bystanders than do police.
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jshop
Come together right now over them.
01:48 PM on 05/01/2012
Wait a second. Go back an re-read the entire thread of this discussion. The author came back and said that he actually is arguing for some form of rational gun control. Or, are you insinuating that he's being a mendacious liar with your full-throated, gun-nut support of his position?
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Grumpy Man
Disappointed idealist
02:17 PM on 04/28/2012
Kudos Dennis!

Well written, thought provoking and informative.
iflew
Pro Publiae Bonae
02:16 PM on 04/28/2012
Clear and present danger can be a matter of opinion. The next question is if a threat rises to the level that requires that lethal force be applied. If lethal force is or is not required in self defense or defense of another person what alternatives are available? In a home, warehouse, military setting or for a policeman authority to apply force is more obvious. On a public street or in a business setting like a restaurant etc., rival gangs could show up and blast away at each other and shoot a few bystanders. To me it looks like a can of worms. Personally I think most who could responsibly be armed should be armed. To me the question is one of how to uniformly define 'responsibly'.
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rothomaha
The Truth will out
10:29 AM on 04/28/2012
I have asked this question repeatedly and gotten no answer - supposing, in the Martin situation, the boy had had a black belt in martial arts? Supposing, as he was being chased on his "home turf" by a perfect stranger, he had decided to "stand his ground", turned around and delivered a fatal blow to that paragon of virtue, Mr. Zimmerman? Would he have been afforded the same consideration as has already been given, or is that only due to people who buy into the NRA philosophy and "pack heat"? Expand that question over the land, and look at the logical consequence of the "Stand Your Ground" laws applied outside the home. Think of the incredible burden placed on law enforcement to determine the right or wrong of any given situation, imagine the added burden on an already stagnant legal system to pursue "justice" in each case. This is simply adding insanity on top of more insanity!
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splashy
Really?!?!!!
05:48 PM on 04/28/2012
That's the point I have been trying to make.

Or what about if Martin had a gun and turned around and shot Zimmerman, who was a stranger following him for quite a while? Would they have thought that was fine for him to shoot Zimmerman? I think that Martin would have been justified - after all, here was this guy he didn't know following him with a gun!
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rothomaha
The Truth will out
09:20 AM on 04/29/2012
I agree - the real trouble with these laws is that it only escalates a fistfight and subsequent felonious assault charges to murder or, at best, assault with a deadly weapon. It solves absolutely nothing that hasn't been solved already.
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
12:15 PM on 05/01/2012
Well one consideration is that Martin did not know Zimmerman had a firearm. It was not drawn until after Martin attacked Zimmerman and knocked him down and Martin was on top of him bouncing Zimmerman's head of the sidewalk.

So you have a guy following another guy, no weapons visible and therefoer not yet a consideration. Does Martin have the right to meet force with for or use lethal force?

Under the criteria spelled out in Florida law, probably not. While Martin was not doing anything unlawful and has a right to bet where he was, two criteria of the Florida law, he was not attacked. Therefore he would not be meeting force with force and therefore the sue of force would not be justified. To use lethal force, he would have to have the reasonable belief that Zimmerman meant to kill him or cause great bodily harm. Merely following or chasing after a person will not satisfy that criteria. Reasonable belief means that a reasonable person would concur. The general test would be if Zimmerman demonstrated the intent, ability, and opportunity to kill Martin or cause him great bodily harm. Again, the mere act of following or chasing does not demonstrate this.

BTW, I teach use of force/use of lethal force to both law enforcement and to civilians.
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Grumpy Man
Disappointed idealist
06:35 PM on 04/28/2012
Your position, as I understand it, is that Martin could have delivered a fatal blow and claimed self defense using SYG simply because Zimmerman was following him.

At what distance was Zimmerman following? I don't really know but we know it couldn't have been too close since, according to the conversation he had with the 9-1-1 dispatcher, he lost sight of Martin.

Would a reasonable man be nervous about someone following them 100+' away? Sure.

Would a reasonable man perceive the follower as an IMMINENT threat to their life or well-being because he is following them from 100+' or more? I think not.

Meanwhile, I hold in contempt any law that would REQUIRE me to retreat when an assailant attacks.
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jshop
Come together right now over them.
01:13 PM on 04/29/2012
What do you mean, "At what distance was Zimmerman following?" Witnesses heard shouting and a fight, and Zimmerman shot Martin at point blank range! And, who, in your mind, was the assailant, the innocent kid walking home from the candy store, or the armed adult who decided to follow a kid he thought was suspicious? Your argument is empty.
02:34 AM on 04/28/2012
The only outcome I can see to these laws is that people will become more and more reluctant to interact with people they do not know.
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ConservativebyNature
Molon Labe ! !
08:43 AM on 04/28/2012
Why would you think that? Have you become more reluctant to interact with people? i don't seem to have that problem so I'm curious.
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jshop
Come together right now over them.
04:48 PM on 04/28/2012
HypocrisyAlarm is right! America has been so divided and antagonized by the cynical application of identity politics that laws have been passed allowing for racial profiling and the killing of children just because they "look suspicious" or have the nerve to stand their own ground when they feel threatened. You many not "have the problem" of feeling reluctant to interact with people, but I'd lay odds you would if you didn't have your guns to cling to. And remember, your guns won't fire themselves at whoever threatens them, you will! Do you know for sure who you're shooting at?
02:27 AM on 04/30/2012
Yes, I have become more cautious when I visit concealed-carry states.
02:50 PM on 04/28/2012
My friend's wife is terrified of guns, and was visibly alarmed one time when she discovered I was armed (she asked me, and I foolishly answered).

After about an hour (we as a group were out on the town) she'd just adjusted and was back to her normal self. Cops have struck up conversations about guns with me when I informed them (required by law where I am) that I was armed.

It hasn't been any problem with interacting with people. People going around with earphones in 24x7 has been a way bigger impediment.
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splashy
Really?!?!!!
05:35 PM on 04/28/2012
The thing is, how does anyone know that a person is "responsible" and "safe" with their firearm?

What would have happened if Martin had a gun, and shot Zimmerman?
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LouGots
12:37 AM on 04/28/2012
An armed society is a polite society. Gun culture people have always known that. We are polite because we know what is at stake if we are not.

Now that legally carried guns are much more commonplace, it is time for the rest of us to catch on to this.
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splashy
Really?!?!!!
05:36 PM on 04/28/2012
Seriously? That's like saying that no one can be moral unless they have a religion to force them to be moral.

You are saying that only from fear will anyone be decent to others. Says a lot about how you think, IMHO.
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BluePhantom2
The Blacksmith & the Artist reflected in their art
10:01 PM on 04/27/2012
That Sir is the most reasoned piece I have read here ever. Thank you for stating this issue so clearly. We as citizens need to remember that the other guy (Or girl or whatever) is a citizen too and that fact alone means they deserve respect. Most forget that we were an armed society long before we changed into what we live like today. And that that armed society was far more civil that we are today for some fairly obvious reasons. Even with the advent of large cities you just didn't know who was armed and who wasn't as most carried a blade and some a firearm of one type or another. Crime was a risky business then and the higher level of civility was probably a byproduct as well. I am not saying that everybody should be armed as some are uncomfortable around weapons but if you want to be armed and have the proper training you should be able to.
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hrpmap
Retired man still active..
08:53 PM on 04/27/2012
If stand your ground laws are repealed what will the criteria be...run like hell, if you don't want to end up in trouble? No thank you.
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splashy
Really?!?!!!
05:51 PM on 04/28/2012
There are other options besides guns.
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OCerInTN
Hoplophobics worst nightmare.
11:27 PM on 04/29/2012
True, but why deny me the option of another tool that may be the most appropriate at any particular time?
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David Carson
03:43 PM on 04/30/2012
how about coming up with self defense tools/techniques that are as effective defensively as one of my 357/45/40s for a disabled vet like me
been2there
Facts have a liberal bias.
07:09 PM on 04/27/2012
If we are going to continue to have a lot of people carrying guns, concealed or not, we had better improve civility!
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BluePhantom2
The Blacksmith & the Artist reflected in their art
10:51 PM on 04/27/2012
I think it goes hand in hand.
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LouGots
12:39 AM on 04/28/2012
How can anyone think that to be a bad thing?
MarkJudiGoet
Diogenes was an optimist
05:11 PM on 04/27/2012
Imagine, this scenario; Your driving through a part of town you're not very familiar with when you see, in your mirror ,a dark van turn a corner and take up station behind you. You make a couple of turns and notice the van is still behind you, and, because of recent events you become concerned. Finally you speed up a little, make another turn, go down the block a ways and turn into a random driveway hoping the van passes you by, the van stops, the driver exits and starts walking toward your car.
Pretty scary huh? Most people in this country, IF they were proponants of the SYG laws, would say this would be exactly why those laws were written.
That is exactly the scenario I found myself in a few years ago before the SYG laws were enacted, the only thing was, I was the driver of the van. I was on my way home from an after hours lockout call, I was a locksmith at the time, it was my neighborhood, the driveway the person pulled into was mine and under the SYG laws, as they are written, the driver of the car would have every right to defend themselves against me. In other words I could have been shot for wanting to know why this person was parked in my driveway. Needless to say, though I own guns and feel people have a right to self defense, I'm no fan of SYG.
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Bishop999999999
06:52 PM on 04/27/2012
No they wouldn't. SYG doesn't allow you to shoot someone just for following you. The individual needs to actually escalate the situation with the immediate and overwhelmingly likely use of violence.
07:26 PM on 04/27/2012
Good catch. Folks need to understand that SYG doesn't mean you can just go around shooting people...
MarkJudiGoet
Diogenes was an optimist
08:58 PM on 04/27/2012
Which the simple act of walking up to the car and tapping on the glass could be, in some peoples mind, construed as. Perhaps it was someone who recently ended an abusive relationship, or a shop-keeper who was carrying a few days receipts. I'm in favor of people being able to defend themselves, but you have to admit, you and I both know people we wouldn't want armed in a situation such as I described above. As paranoid as so many people are in this country, the last thing we need are laws written to feed it.
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LouGots
12:51 AM on 04/28/2012
Insanity. Treyvonism. No one has a reasonable belief that deadly force is necessary to defend against death of great bodily harm on those facts.. What is the world were you going to do to someone who parked in your driveway and did nothing more? Shoot him? Point a gun at him? Attack him? Punch him in the nose, and beat his head on the ground?

I call Bulls**t. on this Treyvonist absurdity. The person in your driveway may have had a right to shoot you if you attacked and beat him, but certainly not if you just asked him what he was doing there.
MarkJudiGoet
Diogenes was an optimist
02:31 AM on 04/28/2012
But see, that's my point, the person in my driveway had no idea what my intent was when I approached the car, they didn't even know it was my driveway, all they knew was that they had been followed for a few blocks, around a few turns and that after what most people would consider a reasonable attempt to avoid any trouble, the person who followed them was now approaching their car.