iPhone app iPad app Android phone app Android tablet app More

Featuring fresh takes and real-time analysis from HuffPost's signature lineup of contributors
Dr. Jonathan David Farley

Dr. Jonathan David Farley

Posted: April 30, 2010 11:53 AM

For Whom the Bell Curves: Harvard Law Student Stephanie Grace Says Blacks Are Dumber Than Whites; Black Harvard Professor Roland Fryer Agrees

What's Your Reaction:

A recent email by Harvard law student Stephanie Grace allegedly asserts, "I absolutely do not rule out the possibility that African Americans are, on average, genetically predisposed to be less intelligent." According to the Harvard Crimson newspaper's blog, this email was forwarded to black law student associations across the country.

Our outrage over the student's political incorrectness aside, are African-Americans less intelligent than whites? As an African-American who graduated summa cum laude in mathematics with the second-highest grade point average in his class at Harvard, I would have to say, Yes. Because the hypocrisy on the part of black Americans is stunning and self-defeating: Black Harvard economics professor Roland Fryer has written a research paper stating that African-Americans are less intelligent than whites.

In "Testing for Racial Differences in the Mental Ability of Young Children," Fryer writes that "the results of our analysis do not preclude a possible role for a genetic contribution to racial differences in intelligence for a number of reasons." He goes on to give three arguments in favor of the "genetic story" that the difference in IQ between blacks and whites comes down to A, C, T, and G.

Instead of being excoriated by blacks, Fryer is celebrated, with black Harvard alumna Soledad O'Brien even interviewing Fryer for her CNN series, Black in America; she calls Fryer a "great guy." Fryer's family sold crack, and he personally sold marijuana, stole money from McDonald's, and nearly murdered a white man. At a meeting organized by Harvard Law School professor Charles Ogletree about reducing the number of young black men in prison, the 1,000-person, mostly black audience convulsed with laughter when Fryer joked that he once thought of going into the pharmaceutical industry, street-side.

Imagine the uproar by blacks if a white professor had made a joke about having once poisoned black children.

This is not the only area where African-Americans exhibit an appalling tolerance when the offending individual is black:

A black former peddler of crack cocaine gets rewarded by becoming the driver and then the "gatekeeper" of the black governor of New York―who also used cocaine "a couple of times".

Another former Harvard law student writes, "Junkie. Pothead. That's where I'd been headed: the final, fatal role of the young would-be black man," and freely admits to using "blow". But it's okay because he is the first African-American president of the United States. Black siren Beyoncé Knowles even glamorizes gangsters in song: I need a soldier: Gotta know to get dough, and he betta be street.

Imagine if a white man, an aide of the governor of Maine or Vermont, had choked a black woman, or shot and killed a black Harvard student. Black preacher Al Sharpton would have been hosting press conferences in Harvard Yard within hours. Sharpton, whose clout in the African-American community is such that he can convene "black leadership summits," despite having been caught on videotape discussing a major cocaine deal with a man he did not realize was an undercover cop.

In Sharpton's defense, he may have been considering a run for mayor of D.C.

Should the Harvard law student be expelled for her stupid, offensive, and easily refuted views? Certainly. But more harmful than the email is the contemporary African-American community's customary cowardice―the Harvard Black Law Students Association "has not taken an official stance" on the email that implies blacks are Untermenschen―and its propensity to elevate monsters and call them heroes. That's simply "precious."

I realize one should not throw stones, particularly when the glass housing market is in a slump. The Black Panthers sold marijuana to fund their early escapades, and Malcolm Little was a lost soul. But the point remains: When African-Americans blame whites for the destruction of black America, while extolling blacks who embody, or participated in, that destruction, one can only question their intelligence.

 
 
 
  • Comments
  • 349
  • Pending Comments
  • 0
  • View FAQ
Comments are closed for this entry
View All
Favorites
Recency  | 
Popularity
Page: 1 2 3  Next ›  Last »  (3 total)
04:27 PM on 05/20/2010
Collateral:
Dr. Farley, does your stellar accomplishments in a field that many human beings fear or are intimidated by regardless of ethnicity make you an exception to the rule that blacks are less intelligent than other groups. I'm just as cautious about "exceptional people of color" speaking on the behalf of those who think of us as less than human. Having said that there is some truth in what you say that we need to stop glorifying the "Superfly Syndrome". Since we can't all walk around with signs stating our educational backgrounds and careers so we're not mistaken as part of that "less than intelligent group"; we have to continue to repudiate those who make blanket statements about a pretty sizable population in this country. Don't you think?
04:07 PM on 05/20/2010
We're all indoctrinated by the educational system and our own ecological circumstances, so it doesn't surprise me that you have black professors like Dr. Fryer and others of his ilk agreeing with the biased opinion of this law student and others of the bell curve persuasion. They have to be challenged just like we would any one else. I agree with Dr. Farley to a point, yet, I also remember that years ago Thurgood Marshall was asked to assess Clarence Thomas's opinions and qualifications to replace him. Justice Marshall stated that a snake is a snake whether it's a black or white one! This isn't an exact quote but the essence of his point. As a group we've been betrayed many times by people who look just like us but have the same contempt and loathing expressed by our oppressors. Soledad's research hasn't always been accurate when she's discussing "being black in America".
10:36 AM on 05/11/2010
Dr. Farley, you seem to have a personal agenda, not unlike Bill Cosby: you ended-up attacking blacks for what you see as their lack of values, and blaming the victims of racism and the undemocratic distribution of wealth and education, rather than assailing the presumptions of this awful woman. Genetic studies show that race is not a scientific concept anyway.
photo
HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Dr. Jonathan David Farley
mathematician
07:47 PM on 05/11/2010
I don't mind being compared to Bill Cosby. I like pudding.
04:29 PM on 05/20/2010
How simplistic and begs the point!! I heard that Bill hates pudding.......
09:45 PM on 05/11/2010
I'm interested in this, if you care to expand on it: "Genetic studies show that race is not a scientific concept anyway." It is certainly a social and historical concept, however in error biologically that may be. We are, of course, generally visually oriented -- particuarly men, actually. I believe scientific studies bear that out. Aren't there genetic differences in our physiological makeup? For instance, there are diseases to which different races are more susceptible because of their cellular makeup. Sickle cell anemia is the most common one cites for Africans, or those of primarily African descent. Others target Jews. Etcetera. Doesn't that indicate genetic differences at the profoundest physiological level? Not better or worse. Please don't misunderstand me. Just different in some aspects. And ... viva la difference. What a boring world if we were all identical!!
photo
HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Dr. Jonathan David Farley
mathematician
07:57 PM on 05/12/2010
Chantal Laurent probably will not reply. She is busy attacking me and defending Fryer on her Facebook page.
09:35 AM on 05/11/2010
I'm not a fan of genetic IQ tests and this Grace woman is despicable, but shouldn't you have gotten busy debunking the idea, rather than attacking intelligent, prominent blacks for abusing drugs?
photo
HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Dr. Jonathan David Farley
mathematician
07:49 PM on 05/11/2010
(1) It diminishes you and me even to address the argument that we are subhuman. (2) "Intelligent" blacks do not abuse drugs. (3) We won't get far if our leaders are pied pipers.
09:47 PM on 05/11/2010
Excellent. I agree, on all three points.
02:31 PM on 05/08/2010
Amongst the many posts in this generally very interesting conversation, there's a recent one using the word "whiggish" in regard to something actually I'd posted and with the suggestion I look it up. So, after responding that I knew it had been a political party historically, I did just that. According to dictionary.com (which doesn't actually list "whiggish") Whig refers to:
–noun
1.American History.
a.a member of the patriotic party during the Revolutionary period; supporter of the Revolution.
b.a member of a political party (c1834–1855) that was formed in opposition to the Democratic party, and favored economic expansion and a high protective tariff, while opposing the strength of the presidency in relation to the legislature.
2.British Politics.
a.a member of a major political party (1679–1832) in Great Britain that held liberal principles and favored reforms: later called the Liberal party.
b.(in later use) one of the more conservative members of the Liberal party.

With exception to the "high protection tariff" platform, I don't mind at all being associated with those original ideas generally. Obviously our political parties have morphed to the extent that the Democratic one now is more attuned to original views of the Whigs, and our federal legislature has become corrupted by unrestrained lobbying and massive funding from special interests, e.g. megabanks.

So, whoever said that, in general: thank you. I'm content to be considered somewhat "whiggish."
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Chuck IsCool
05:26 PM on 05/08/2010
I apologize for the confusion, I meant this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whig_history
"Whigg history" often means making transhistorical moral judgements, where the future is good and the past is evil. My point is that you have to put things in context. For example, we don't judge Roman slavery the same way we do American slavery. And they were equally brutal. Or if Africans had the same type of slavery (so called "cattle slavery") it would not be equivalent to Western slavery -- because moral expectations generally increase with societal development. The more luxury you have to not need to engage in a problematic behavior the more perverse it is.
photo
HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Dr. Jonathan David Farley
mathematician
07:15 PM on 05/08/2010
I would not want to be a slave in any system, but I am not aware of any African society (at least, inside the last several hundred years) that had a system of slavery as brutal as the European/American system. And I do not know if the Roman system was as brutal: Was slavery hereditary in Rome? Did masters increase their stock of slaves by raping them? Spartacus was crucified and so was Nat Turner.
09:06 PM on 05/09/2010
I'd thought I'd made up my mind to ease out of this debate because it seemed like a hodge podge of pointless intellectualizing, but one of my pedestrian buttons have been pushed.

In addition to the points raised by Dr. Farley, it's important to remember that --unless I've been misinformed-- Romans and Africans didn't promote forced breedings among their slaves, then routinely disrupt families and/or would-be families by selling or murdering the bucks, does, or their spawn; neither did they forbid the formal education of their slaves.


The point about contextualizing information is understood, but in aligning Roman, African, and American systems of slavery, an apples and oranges comparison is made. Being the property of another human is (almost) nobody's idea of a good time, but those systems were not the same.

I'll get back to watching "When Harry Met Sally", now.

Oh, and I hope all mothers are enjoying their day.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Chuck IsCool
05:58 PM on 05/08/2010
"Earlier societies tended to be matriarchal, because the boys noticed that their continuance as a community"

On idea is that at a certain point in expansion and technology patriarchal societes are needed. Basically, if you have a small community you can be matriarchal. If you have an empire with limited technology you are going to have a patriarchy -- as, to some extent, it needs to be ruled by force. When you develop enough technology, then things shift back, because brute force, which on average men can display more, is less advantageous and organization is more so.
03:40 AM on 05/10/2010
Gotta sleep on that one!
11:20 AM on 05/10/2010
Okay. The "limited technology" part stumps me a bit because, for one thing, it's pretty relative. Are we talking about the distance between spears and nuclear warheads or ... cloth to kleenex? In any event, what about Makeda (the Queen of Sheba) or the female pharoahs of Egypt or Queen Elizabeth I or Tsarina Catherine of Russia. Although the numbers of women in power who've created and/or expanded empires is a minority, I don't see that those who have been able to accomplish that were less committed to force in the process than their male counterparts have been.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Dukedraven
06:24 PM on 05/07/2010
The backstory on Fryer is truly outrageous and it's incredible that his old racist eugenics argument gets any traction. It's worse when it's a member of the black community is using it. Thank you, Dr. Farley, for your thoughtful commentary.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Chuck IsCool
12:45 PM on 05/07/2010
Does someone want to debate this: "offensive, and easily refuted views?"
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Chuck IsCool
01:34 PM on 05/07/2010
Let me rephrase that, as "Intelligence" is a poblematic term. Would someone like to debate the reasonability of saying that different 'racial' groups might, on average, differ cognitively -- in some aspect associated with what is generally called intelligence -- in socially significant ways, and do so for partially genetic reasons. Where by 'group average,' we mean averaged aggregated individual differences.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
einhverfr
Heathen Distributist
01:50 PM on 05/07/2010
I would agree that 'racial' groups might differ cognitively in subtle ways for genetic reasons and that this might skew tests. However, "intelligence" as you note is a problem term and my own thinking is that I see no reason to suppose that a current test gap addresses the key issue which is real-world intelligence-based performance (not just in education but in professional careers as well).
photo
HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Dr. Jonathan David Farley
mathematician
08:20 PM on 05/07/2010
If you first clarify the historical background to the asking of such a question---by acknowledging that, for many, this is just a 2010 way of saying the "N" word---if you claim that every question is reasonable to ask, and then put your money where your mouth is by raising a question that insults groups that are not so weak and despised as African-Americans are in America, but who can hit you back, and if you prove you are not a racist by responding to the people commenting here who clearly are racists.
08:18 PM on 05/06/2010
Using genetics to justify/explain/set low expectations for intelligence is ignorant.
10:51 AM on 05/06/2010
It is a common mistake to equate genetic intelligence with intelligent action, as is evidenced by this young lady's comments. She is obviously an intelligent young woman, but she has reached some very illogical and ignorant conclusions. It happens. If I were to judge this woman's actual capability on her actions I might assume she was a bit deficient mentally - and that would be incorrect.

What I don't understand is how we came to value genetic intelligence over integrity, compassion for one's fellow man, a solid work ethic and all the other attributes that make living with other human beings a tolerable experience. History is full of brilliant sadists psychopaths. What have any of them contributed beyond an excellent example of how not to act?
12:00 PM on 05/06/2010
Exactly what is "illogical" about her conclusions, since she really did have a conclusion. Put please let us know what was illogical here. If you mean to say that anybody who believes in what the university claims to pride itself on and can say even un-PC things at Harvard and expect to be treated like adults and not have to do the PC grovel dance - then yes, they would be ignorant or stupid.
05:24 PM on 05/06/2010
We are not talking about political correctness. We are talking about scientific and historical correctness. Those are three separate terms/concdepts. They are not synonymous.
photo
HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Dr. Jonathan David Farley
mathematician
10:40 AM on 05/08/2010
Markkk in LA: regarding the real "political correctness", tell us your views on Rene Gonzalez. I have a list of other people to name once you do.
12:01 PM on 05/06/2010
Bad proof reading - She really didn't have a conclusion.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
einhverfr
Heathen Distributist
01:52 PM on 05/07/2010
She did, though. She at least implicitly had concluded that IQ tests were a reasonable and fair measure of intelligence. I would consider such a conclusion naive at best.
07:37 AM on 05/06/2010
"Should the Harvard law student be expelled for her stupid, offensive, and easily refuted views?"

You can easily refute it right now and here! What are you waiting for?

"Black behavior, like building the pyramids when there was no civilization in Europe?"

If I had some doubts about your intelligence, they now became certainty. "One of 15 people who have shaped the global conversation about science”? "The second-highest grade point average in his graduating class"? Seriously, you don't think that I would believe it?

"And what about white behavior worldwide during the last several centuries, exterminating entire races in North America, South America, Europe, and having a good go in Africa, not to mention dropping atomic bombs in Asia."

A very interesting interpretation of history. Were you so keen on math that you routinely missed history lessons in basic school?
08:56 AM on 05/06/2010
It's very obviously you who've missed history lessons -- which by the way have been and are very skewed toward the "white boy" interpretation of past events and personages, denying or ignoring the real achievements of any others including women and minorities. That's how the "white boys" have held on to the usurious usurpations. But check it out now. There's a lot more information available on-line, in encyclopedia and websites, that don't have that prejudice ingrained. It's going to be difficult for the "white boys" and their co-dependents to face the truth. And only the truth will set you free. You're in chains. The chains of your prejudice, the chains of the lies that undergird your ridiculous claims of superiority of any kind, and most particularly of morality or real insight into history and humanity. The "interpretation of history" has been from the "white boy" perspective to justify with lies what isn't and hasn't been justifiable.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
einhverfr
Heathen Distributist
06:36 PM on 05/07/2010
Also, history's a tough subject because it's so hard to separate fact from fiction. Even when we do so, the lessons we draw from those facts are entirely what we project upon them. This leads, unfortunately, to a place where history becomes little more than a means of propaganda.

Take, for example, the argument over whether the Egyptians were or were not black. This is a funny argument because both sides are both right and wrong. The question of the role of the blacks in spreading the Egyptian language is a far more interesting one, and my initial (uneducated) suspicion is that, given what I know of the African branches of the Afro-Asiatic languages, it seems most likely that in fact that the blacks were the ones who spread the language to Egypt.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
einhverfr
Heathen Distributist
06:38 PM on 05/07/2010
My point about Egypt is that this is a topic that folks jump into trying to prove a point by ignoring whatever data's inconvenient.
11:48 AM on 05/06/2010
I'm interested in why the eradication of smallpox, the Green Revolution, the invention of antibiotics and so on didn't get a mention.
05:26 PM on 05/06/2010
? Whut? Are you saying we may have ranged a little far afield here? I think we mentioned physics, didn't we?
05:32 PM on 05/06/2010
Come on, you're not stupid. I'm saying you're cherry picking.
03:23 AM on 05/06/2010
1) Ms. Thing has the right to ponder or say whatever the hay she wants. Forsaking the free speach banter, I'm not afraid of anyone's ponderings about my competence -- racially affected, or otherwise.
2) I don't think Ms. Grace's wonderings are much different from most people's. Do I like them? No, but at least she's not posturing (well, maybe she was before her e-mail was leaked) like way too many of the pseudo-liberals traipsin' around our good planet Earth (California, included). If she enters the legal profession, she'll be among friends.
3) Whatever the chicken wing guy, Fryer (or whatever his name is), did when he was a kid is irrelevant. I'm not a smoker, but I don't give two hoots about anybody soliciting weed. Judging him for his family's deeds is cheap, to say the least. Unless you have convincing evidence that he's using the students at P.S. 70 as guinea pigs in a study titled "How to Effectively Hit the Pipe Without Burning Both Labia", references to the shady part of his life shouldn't have been included.
4) I didn't read Fryer's entire paper. What I did read suggested that he was on a fence.
5) Yes, black folks have the wrong people on pedestals.
6) Kudos to those of you who understand the ramifications of historical influence, shame on those who use them as excuses (instead of reasons), and "Wake up!" to those still chained inside the cave.
10:20 AM on 05/06/2010
4) Researchers today aren't "on a fence" about whether black people are more inferior to white people. There's an overwhelming amount of evidence that both white people are black people perform the same given the same environmental treatment. This is why Grace's e-mail was so ignorant.
03:51 PM on 05/06/2010
I wasn't addressing "researchers" stances on an issue, and don't care to. I was addressing the incendiary claims made about one paper referenced in the opening essay. That's it.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
einhverfr
Heathen Distributist
01:56 PM on 05/07/2010
"There's an overwhelming amount of evidence that both white people are black people perform the same given the same environmental treatment."

I would generally agree with the caveat that the performance must be real-world. Many people with minor or even moderate to severe neurological disorders perform as well or better than non-handicapped individuals as well (Richard Branson's dyslexia being a good example). The problem here though is that we don't entirely know what the IQ tests in fact test, so AFAICS, projecting any meaning onto the gap is a bit premature.
11:21 PM on 05/05/2010
Im no fan of Fryer, but you have totally misrepresented the content of the Fryer's paper you hyperlinked. Nowhere in the paper does support the idea that "African-Americans are less intelligent than whites." Rather he is investigating, scientifically, the belief that AAs are less intelligent than whites (personally, I reject these sorts of studies out of hand as cultural biased and politically motivated).

In fact some of what you quote undermines your accusation. Quote:

Fryer writes that "the results of our analysis do not preclude a possible role for a genetic contribution to racial differences in intelligence for a number of reasons."

Well, this means that his results don't support but cannot totally debunk the genetic explanations.

You are also mistaken when you claim that Fryer supports "three arguments in favor of the 'genetic story'". If you actually read the paper he is simply laying out what the arguments are. Nowhere does he declare his support of the arguments. In fact his findings point to an "environmental" (or cultural) explanation, not a genetic argument.

Again, I am very skeptical of this sort of research, but I think you have grossly misrepresented Fryer's study. You should seriously consider publishing a retraction. kzs
10:14 AM on 05/06/2010
Dr. Farley and I had a long debate about the very points you raise in another comment thread. The conclusion we both agreed on was that it is legitimate to criticize Fryer's paper if only because the idea that blacks are genetically inferior to whites is so fringe as to be on the level of Holocaust denial.

In scientific papers, it's generally considered quite unscientific to answer the arguments made by junk science. The black inferiority theory is an archaic idea developed through a primitive understanding of evolution and the environmental advantages that benefited whites through the last 10,000 years. For Fryer to answer this archaic question when no serious researcher today does is very strange.

No serious journal accepts a research paper answering the question, "Did the Holocaust really happen?"
12:34 PM on 05/06/2010
yes, david i noted several times in my post that i reject these sorts of studies out of hand. but the fact still remains that jonathan has misrepresented what fryer actually said in the paper. kzs
05:27 PM on 05/06/2010
(except in Iran.)
photo
HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Dr. Jonathan David Farley
mathematician
01:05 AM on 05/07/2010
1) You say, "Nowhere in the paper does [Fryer] support the idea that 'African-Americans are less intelligent than whites.' "

To the contrary, Fryer begins his paper by saying: "Blacks in the United States have consistently scored worse than Whites on tests of IQ and academic achievement... Among teenagers and adults, the Black-White test score gap is as much as one standard deviation in magnitude. Large racial gaps in test scores have been found in children as young as two years old...and the full racial gap observed later in life is present by age three".

2) You write: "you claim that Fryer supports 'three arguments in favor of the "genetic story" '." In fact, what I actually wrote was that Fryer "goes on to give three arguments in favor of the 'genetic story' ".

3) You write that Fryer's "findings point to an 'environmental' (or cultural) explanation, not a genetic argument." In fact, Fryer says: "A simple calibration exercise suggests that many of the basic facts in the data can be generated from a model in which there are small mean differences in intelligence across races". He then goes on to say, "I absolutely do not rule out the possibility that African Americans are, on average, genetically predisposed to be less intelligent."

Actually, those were Stephanie Grace's words. Fryer's words were: "the results of our analysis do not preclude a possible role for a genetic contribution to racial differences in intelligence".
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
einhverfr
Heathen Distributist
02:43 PM on 05/07/2010
Dr Farley:

But Fryer's words are quite different. Ms Grace's words consider only two possibilities: equality or white superiority, and they preclude a linear measurement of intelligence where comparison is always possible. Fryer makes no such assumption. I think you are reading the statement as quantitative when it could just as easily be qualitative.

I'm not interested in quantitative questions of this sort because I see no reason why such differences should exist. However, I would be genuinely surprised if there regional qualitative differences (both within and among continents) regarding cognitive capabilities. If such were the case, however, it would force us to abandon a simple uni-directional view of intelligence. That, to me, is the more interesting question.

Only if you see intelligence as a quantitative thing does Fryer's statement pose problems.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
GAYF
Would love to interact more; I do not have time.
05:01 PM on 05/05/2010
I cannot discern the chronology of the posts. I receive notice of a posting, I come to the site, and find days and a few hours ago in a logic I can not determine. As in every discussion on the earth-roiling issue of "race," the few who have a comprehensive view of the complex issue make intelligible comments. Those with no insight into that complexity, of how the bogeyman of a phony called "race," has played out over the last 500 years of western domination, can not "get it." Trying to converse, then, is not worth the effort, pollution of energy.

I just posted a response to my white editor who "loves" my book. He wrote, " Brochures don't sell books. Why don't you place them in black businesses, hairdressers, etc. " It is hopeless, when a writer who read and edited my manuscript thinks I write FOR black people. I write accurate multi-cultural history, with black-white-indigenous, domestic and foreign characters and stories. The divide is impossible to cross. If there were an island on the planet where I could find non-ignorance--and human acceptance I'd sell everything. including my sweet Protege5, to go there. permanently.
06:25 PM on 05/05/2010
I don't think your editor "gets it." There are plenty of non-blacks, me for instance, who are very interested in the perspectives, experiences, thoughts and insights of folks other than themselves. How else can we learn anything and how boring to just be around and know what is pretty much exactly like you (me) give or take some details? We need to communicate with each other and we can do that best, little by little, by comprehending the background and environment of others -- I mean that very broadly and to include all diversity. This Balkanization of this country or any country or the globe is *not* helpful for our progress as a planet and a species generally. Good artists, with good hearts I'll say, want to share with others as widely as possible for all the best and positive reasons. If you can keep your temper, which I have trouble doing sometimes in this atmosphere, I'd try to explain that to your editor -- maybe in a letter, which is a little safer in terms of calm and rational expression and attempts to get across important and honest truths. I'll wish you well! All we can ever do is try, do our best. No one can ask any more of us than that, reasonably and responsibly.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
blueollie
nerd from Illinois
11:59 AM on 05/05/2010
Many years ago, I had a conversation with a good friend. We were undergraduates; I am of Mexican descent and he is African American.

I asked him: "ok, if we (racial minorities) are intellectually equal to Europeans, why were they able to come and dominate us? Why weren't WE dominating Europe? Why did they have technology that we didn't have?"

You know what? Instead of calling me a self hater, he went to the library, photocopied some mainstream historical references (no "wiki" in those days! :-) ) and gave me a detailed answer to my question.

Bottom line: when questions such as these are "shouted down", there is a tendency to think "oh, it must be true but "impolite" to say". It is much better to boldly address it, as my friend did.
photo
HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Dr. Jonathan David Farley
mathematician
01:03 PM on 05/05/2010
1. Genghis Khan conquered lots of nations. I don't think anyone believes it was because the Mongols were intellectually superior.
2. If someone spits in my face, my response is not to say, "Pardon me, but will you please allow me to explain why you should not have spat in my face?"
01:37 PM on 05/05/2010
Yes!! Aggressiveness if not a measure of intelligence. It seems we might agree on that at least in formulating a measurement test. I'm not saying it's a measure of stupidity either. I'm saying that it's irrelevant to the referenced trait, i.e. some intelligent people are aggressive and others are passive. It's immaterial, not related at all to level of intelligence, however otherwise we choose to define that. It is not a measure of *intelligence* that Gentiles started two world wars in the last century, for instance. One *could* argue that it's a measure of stupidity, it seems, given all the consequences for pretty much everybody and everything.

No. The proper response is to spit back and *then* say, "See why you shouldn't have spit in my face?"
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
einhverfr
Heathen Distributist
06:26 PM on 05/05/2010
1) Evidently the Mongols solve some problems the Europeans were unable to regarding empire building and military conquest. Does that mean overall greater intelligence? Again, I am not sure that follows.

2) Again you're conflating two very different things: a direct, intended insult, and a private communication.

As I understand it, even in Austria, an individual is free to advocate that the Nazis were right, but that such advocacy is circumscribed by various time/place/manner restrictions (i.e. telling your friend you think Hitler was right and the Jews should be exterminated is fine, but publishing a book arguing the same is not). It seems to me that even under European hate speech standards, a private email forwarded to a friend after a dinner party would be protected under the European treaties on human rights.
09:44 AM on 05/05/2010
"I absolutely do not rule out the possibility that African Americans are, on average, genetically predisposed to be less intelligent."

There is a level of scientific inquiry at which students and researchers are encouraged and instructed to be *completely objective*. (Whether that is actually possible for them, or for journalists or writers of non-fiction, is another field of inquiry and controversy, similar to that addressing the validity of "intelligence tests" in accurately and significantly measuring those attributes we do *not* all agree constitute "intelligence.")

If Ms. Grace would note, with equal equanimity and objectivity, ""I absolutely do not rule out the possibility that [Gentiles, Chinese, East Indians, Native Americans, Hawaiians, Serbs, Africans, Arabs, Jews .... etc.] are, on average, genetically predisposed to be less intelligent [than the median norm across groups]," we would accept her statement as intending complete objectivity in the interest of attempting to determine truth, the veracity of a theorum, postulate, or premise.
09:53 AM on 05/05/2010
Whoops, sorry. Forgot something. Of course, "the norm across groups" in that instance cited theoretically would *include* the group theorized as being "below the norm" genetically, which would skew the results. Excluding that group from the postulated "norm" would also skew the results, so there is a quagmire of statistical and scientific structure and theory there that would need to be addressed initially before actually focusing upon a theory that any one chosen ethnicity is more or less blessed with the fuzzy phenomenon labelled "intelligence" and designing methodologies for measuring that.
12:51 PM on 05/05/2010
It doesn't matter what variant of the argument you give, the belief that blacks are less intelligent than whites is not regarded as a compelling scientific question anymore. Someone as supposedly "smart" as Stephanie should know better. It only exposes her severe ignorance on the subject.
01:40 PM on 05/05/2010
Yes, I agree. I was being facetious, in the sense of "while we're wasting time on stupid arguments that have been settled by most 'intelligent' minds for quite awhile, let's at least do it interestingly."
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
einhverfr
Heathen Distributist
06:43 PM on 05/05/2010
I agree it's not a compelling question anymore.

I would note one other thing: Some time ago, IQ tests were rewritten so that scores for men and women would be directly comparable. It seems before that point, men were scoring higher than women. After taking into account different scoring profiles, and rewriting the test, the scores are now comparable.

Is it possible that something similar explains the current IQ test score gap between various ethnic groups? Is it possible that our tests (and even our understanding of intelligence) is skewed towards asserting that blacks are somehow less than fully intelligent? With more study, might we be able to fix this problem and arrive at a test which scores fairly across racial groups?

To me these are the interesting questions. But Ms Grace, by virtue of bad analysis ends up framing the question as if intelligence is a scalar. But we know it's more like a vector.