To those that replied to my posting: You can have a homosexual relationship and that may be the best for you for whatever reason, it is nothing new. Is it normal? Of course not. Full relationships are emotional and physical. Two bodies of the same sex as we know cannot have a natural physical relationship and are not able to reproduce. Where are the activists that try to protect animals from extinction? How come they are not trying to protect us humans? We would become extinct if homosexuality was the norm. I guess we could try cloning. Wouldn"t that be great?
My point is: If homosexuals feel that they are confused and have mixed feelings about their sexuality not matching their emotions, then they can continue doing what they have been doing for thousands of years. Be it, but keep it to yourselves. I am not unsympathetic to people who unfortunately aren"t normal. The argument of Heterosexuals who in case that no one noticed happen to be the vast majority, is that they don"t want to hear about it. We don"t want to drive under a banner that says "Gay and Lesbian proud week". Don"t kid yourselves; being dysfunctional is nothing to be proud about. We don"t want to have to worry about our children been talked in school to accept a dysfunctional life style. It is abusive and misleading to children who are talked at home how to grow up to live a normal life. Get my point?
Hurrah for Gay Marriage
I've never understood the objection to gay marriage. We humans are pair-bonding creatures and we seem to feel safest when coupled. It's not true for everyone, of course, but most of us eventually want a partner to merge our books and lives with. Marriage provides certain extremely useful perks: a partner to be with you when you are ill, someone to share your poverty or wealth with, someone to share your celebrations and devastations, someone to raise children with. You'd think the right wing would be pleased that gay people share the same needs as other Americans.
In the past, gay people had to adopt their lovers to leave them their goodies. Or they had to go without a next-of-kin to depend on in hospital. All sorts of legal mumbo-jumbo was required because marriage was forbidden. And why? Because a bigoted old Bible seemed to imply that God made Adam and Eve -- not Adam and Steve -- as the anti-gay faction likes to say.
I've often found that gay people are better at marriage than straight people. They don't get all bent out of shape about sex for sex's sake. At least this is true for gay men. And they don't run to bust up a perfectly cozy union because one member of the couple -- or both -- has a fling. Some couples are faithful and some not. And they seem to practice this without the territoriality and hypocrisy of mixed-sex couples. Actually, they should be our role models in marriage. They take it far more seriously than straight people -- perhaps because it was forbidden for so long.
So hurrah for California and Massachusetts. Let's hope the anti-gay lunatic fringe eventually sees gay marriage as a blessing not a curse. It certainly promotes stability and family. And it's certainly good for kids.
But the truth is the anti-gays don't think rationally. They need their wedge issues to distract the populace from reality. Anti-gay rhetoric is a useful political smokescreen. It obscures the fact that the rich are getting richer and that nobody gives a hoot about the poor. Whenever people get exercised about sex -- suspect the truth: they want to pick your pocket.
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Part 1 of 2
Howiseeit... you've got a point, but if you wear a hat, nobody will notice. (Yeah, I know, old joke... they can't all be gems). Is it normal? No, not to you and not to me, however to JohnJames for instance, it is. You can't just project your own ideas like that... we're all different. As far as extinction is concerned, I don't think the tiny percentage of humans who are exclusively gay are endangering the survival of the species. Far too many people are having far too many kids (for example, my wife had six by a previous marriage) so we should be grateful to gays for their efforts in keeping the numbers down. We are going to have a far greater population bust than any birth-control system could dream of due to the impending famine and retroactive abortion otherwise known as war caused by overpopulation.
Part 2
The gay pride parade? That's a result of the discrimination against gays. The crews on cruise ships have more gays per cubic foot than anywhere else on Earth (I should know, I've been all over the world working on cruise ships) and they are accepted as equals along with everyone else. There are no "gay pride" events, no demonstrations, no gay identity issues. Why? On a cruise ship, a gay man is just another man working beside you. The only difference is he's not competing with you for the available women. He's still conversing with you in the mess as an equal, shooting pool with you in the ports when you have some time off and buying his share of the beer in the crew bar. I suspect you've never (knowingly) met a homosexual so you are reacting to the simplistic fear points drivin into you by the church and the right-wing.
I missed the part where Jong says Mrs. Bill Clinton was the founder of the Gay Rights movement.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT SODOMY (HOMOSEXUALITY)?
Exodus 22:19
19Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 18:22
22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 18:23
23Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
Leviticus 20:13
13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 20:15
15And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
Leviticus 20:16
16And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Hahaha! Who *cares* what some mythological document written in Hebrew has to say about ANYTHING?? It's much more interesting to see what GREEK MYTHOLOGY has to say about "sodomy" (which as a concept didn't exist until the 11th century) or "homosexuality" (which as a concept didn't exist until the 19th century). As another reader has pointed out, Leviticus is full of backward, hateful, and nonsensical commands. In fact, Leviticus is the best proof that the God Christians tried to steal from Jews does not exist.
If I gave a shit about the 3000-year old ravings of middle eastern goat herders, your post might make an impression. But your fairy tale has no relevance in my life, or the lives of billions on this planet.
Can't help noticing that out of your six examples, only two have anything to do with homosexuality. The other four deal with bestiality, which is a totally different thing. Perhaps you should stop using you head as a tool for self-sodomy.
And as far as Leviticus goes, how about the hundreds of lines about what foods not to eat - shrimp for example - lest one become unclean in the eyes of God, or the knee-slapper about wearing cloth made of more than one fabric, or stoning disobedient children? The God of Leviticus, if you read the book, is clearly more concerned with things that no one, including Christians, has taken seriously for thousands of years than same-sex sex. It demands a breath-taking degree of impiety to claim to be on this God's side while cherry-picking his words.
Another Christofascist who seems never to have actually read the Bible. The Sodom and Gomorrah story is, among other things, about God punishing a group of men and their village for treating strangers inhumanely. In this case, men threatening to rape other men in order to humiliate them. That is, treat them like women, the ultimate outrage in Middle Eastern societies both then and now. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with sexual attraction, let alone sexual orientation. In fact this sort of inhumane behavior remains common in our prisons - hardly gathering places of gay men.
There you go again, trying to force YOUR interpretation of YOUR chosen version of YOUR mythology on everyone.
What does some old book have to do with anything?
Gosh, Erica! As a Gay Man I'm so glad to know you are open minded and liberal and so totally on our side!
OBAMA '08
Erica, you are my hero...er, heroine? (I dislike the latter: it sounds like some kind of drug.) Anyway, your take on the gay marriage thing is similar to mine. Gays and lesbians who adopt have been shown to be just as good at parenting as straight couples, and they're good prospects for adoptions and fostering, too. The idea that only a male and a female can marry is so obviously unconstitutional you'd think the surveys would reflect more comfort with the same-sex marriage concept. Even as religious dogma, the male-female only idea has had major exceptions in Christian history; the latter-day hysteria smacks of the dying breath of a worthless institution: half of straight marriages end in divorce and most of the other half either don't have sex or cheat -- sometimes, as in Larry Craig's case, with same-sex partners.
I know of a local Lutheran minister that is somewhat strident in his opposition to Gay Marriage and homosexuality in general. He is one of many that is quick to point out that marriage between same-sex couples is a threat to the sanctity of marriage and bad for families. The Lutheran minister in question also happens to have a serious gambling problem, however, and has raised concerns among his flock about his frequent trips to Nevada casinos. I don't know the statistics on this, but I would imagine that not too many marriages can survive a compulsive gambler, never mind a hypocritical one.
The bigotry of ministers like that, not gay people, are the real threat to families. Thousands of families have been riven when a child or other family member comes out of the closet because others in the family have fallen under the influence of homophobic preachers.
Unfortunately, bigots of all stripes are in positions af power. They manipulate people with irrational fear. They've based the gay issue on that one verse of the Bible where the marauding band of gay men wanted to drag the defenceless heterosexual visitor out of the tent and have their way with him. Can you think of anything more ridiculous? (I find a lot of things in the Bible a bit odd, by the way), With the snail's pace of progress on this issue, you and I probably won't live long enough to see sanity emerge but I have enough misguided faith in humanity that I think the race will get there eventually. Maybe if any of my grandkids turn out to be gay, they'll see it.
That's not even actually what that story is about. It's about the hospitality codes of the region and a town full of people so paranoid about strangers they wanted to violate the protection of Lot's roof.
Someone else decided to make it about gay people. by creative application of the 'Biblical sense' of 'know.' Which, when you think about it, doesn't really make sense, does it? In the story, the people *didn't like strangers* and wanted to *interrogate Lot's guests,* despite the fact that once a guest under someone's roof, they're supposed to be inviolable: this is a custom common to many ancient cultures and some which survive today. He offered his daughters to try and shame the mob out of violating his roof. If he didn't show good hospitality, they would have been shamed, anyway.
I am distrustful of anyone, however well-meaning, who uses the term "gay marriage."
You know, as opposed to "real marriage" or "normal marriage." It's same-sex marriage or marriage equality. FYI, gay people already get married. For example, anyone who marries Liza Minnelli.
Another Human disaster in the making. The end of modern society, the closet will be empty.
I'm all for gay marriage. The timing of the california decision is a bit suspicious and is guaranteed to rally the redneck homophobe republican base just in time for november.
I want to know what we are going to do about public restrooms. Under the new rules everyone is a sexual target of another regardless of sex.
As Ms Jong states "I've often found that gay people are better at marriage than straight people. They don't get all bent out of shape about sex for sex's sake. At least this is true for gay men. And they don't run to bust up a perfectly cozy union because one member of the couple -- or both -- has a fling." With such morality should I worry about using a public toliet?
"Under the new rules everyone is a sexual target of another regardless of sex." New rules? Good lord, what rock have you been living under?
Glad to know that seeking out a spouse and being a sexual predator are equated in your mind.
Yes, be worried. There are still conservative closet cases out there like Larry Craig who have the same homophobic attitudes you have. They're about the only gay men so desperate as to seek sex in a public bathroom. Open and honest gay men don't have to and find the idea as disgusting and pitiful as most other people.
Thank you. I will be worried. The fact that the police had a stakeout in that bathroom tells me that it is a problem.
It is not a question of being open and honest, it is an issue of what is proper moral behavior within a community. Based on your logic I should feel as comfortable using the female restroom and certainly no women should be able to complain as I am an open and honest hetrosexual. Certainly if the a women feels uncomfortable with me being in there with her, the problem is hers because she is a hetro-phobe.
Did I get it right?
How many normal srtaight couples have been caught having sex at the local look out point? Public sex is no stranger to any sexual orientation.
The police seek to entrap "normal" heterosexuals for soliciting sex from prostitutes...does that mean you are fearful on the corner as well?
If anyone makes a pass at you in a restroom, just speak. They will run screaming from you in 5 seconds.
Seems you've fallen straight into the religious/right-wing nutcase trap that teaches gay=pervert. I have no problem standing next to a gay man at the urinal. I do have a problem letting pedophiles in clerical garb or congressmen's suits near my young grandchildren of either sex.
Excellent! It's so good to know that there are sane straight men out there who don't mind standing next to a gay man at the urinal. Bravo!
I'm usually pretty good at detecting irony, humor, sarcasm etc but I wasn't sure if you were taking a swipe at me there or agreeing so I had a look at your profile.... I'm still not sure!
I'm afraid Ms. Jong is just as bigoted as the "lunatic fringe" she decries. By employing such name calling, she reveals her complete intolerance for other points of view. Which means she does not tolerate diversity!
I have read a number of statements saying a same-sex (union) individual has had 'legal' document overturned implying because of sexual orientation.
This is a very shaky statement regardless that crooked lawyers and judges exist, however law is not written to be friviously overturned, and retrial for fair hearing is usually where something unusual such as this would be corrected.
Also, of late (tongue in cheek) I have discovered that not everything people say, is always in fact true.
To: Erica Jong
From: Dontbefoolish
Mrs. Jong, first of all. I believe that you never understood the objection to gay marriage because you chose not to. Let me help you begin to think about gay marriage by offering you some tidbits of thought, that I believe will help you begin to understand.
There is a reason why, someone created each and every specieis as a Male and a Female. This was done for one reason, and one reason only. To propagate each species. Any thing different than that usually creates some kind of confusion.
Now when you begin to change the nature of things, you create some kind of confusion. Let"s take for instance, our planet. You kill off species that need to be in place, and you create confusion, you melt the polar ice caps when they are not supposed to melt, and you create confusion.
Now some of this confusion if immediately dretrimental, and other confusion becomes detrimental over time. So understand, no one hates gay people. But there is an order to somethings that were never meant to be changed, and when you do try to change them, you create confusion, and from the outset of this decision, I can tell you that it is more detrimental to our country and the world as a whole than you think Now I could go on, but I will not. Because I believe, that you can take it from here.
Then why did that order of things (I call it God) allow for all the things in creation that do not come out the same as you. This order of things, which according to religion is not a sin in itself but a sin when it practices. You can be gay buy you cannot involve in sex outside of marriage. Same goes fo single people, and those lacking fidelity in marriage. (again we are talking the religious beliefs) Now sin it's also the religious belief that the order of things says man has free will and can choose - well we must now let the choosers of their path answer to (sorry God) on their own. Me I fear to judge lest I be judged for judging.
What gets me is why this has anything to do with Religion. In my faith there is marriage in the church and marriage by the judge - state. Since my church does not recognize the validity of marriage outside of the church then they should continue doing so. Withing this framework the state can and does allow for the populace much that is not allowed within my church. That's why the separation is so good. Now, I would object if gay people were insisting on marriage within my church.
The state should not have rules that exclude citizens.
My church is allowed to do so.
Are you a member of the Flat-Earth Society?
Assuming your creator created species as Male and Female only, who created amoebas, for instance? Not to mention hermaphroditic snails and some species of fish who can switch genders when needed. Or was the creator periodically a bit confused?
Sounds like the creator had a sense of humor!
We live on an overpopulated planet whose natural resources are being depleted at an alarming rate....
Gays make up a SMALL percentage of this population...we aren't recruiting, so how is offering me and my partner of 7 years the same benefits that a straight couple who just met last week and married on a whim going to create such "confusion"? I could get ripped in Vegas and marry the first thing that walked by and someone like you would consider that more worthy of those protections than my current longstanding relationship with another woman? Because you fear our extinction?
Yeah, I get that *you* don't hate gay people - but there are those out there that DO. Do us a favor and stop making it harder for those of us who HAVE families, to protect them.
Posted May 18, 2008 | 01:04 PM (EST)