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Erica Keppler

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Religious Discrimination: Right To or Protection From?

Posted: 12/09/11 01:38 AM ET

In a recent incident of open, hostile, aggressive discrimination against a transgender woman, a store clerk in a Texas Macy's attempted to bar a trans woman from entering a women's fitting room, claiming it was a violation of her Christian religion to allow the trans woman to do that (no specific scripture was cited). Macy's subsequently fired the clerk.

The store clerk, Natalie Johnson, is claiming a religious right to discriminate and suing Macy's for religious discrimination. She is not claiming a right to discriminate against trans people just because they are transgender. No, she is making a very specific point of wrapping her prejudice in religion. Fine. Let's take her position at face value and look at it.

There are only two approaches I can see to making such an argument: 1) that certain people have more rights to do whatever they want than others, or 2) that rights to engage in certain kinds discrimination supersede any rights of protection from that same discrimination. In the first approach, the only way this sales clerk can make her case is to deny the humanity and equal citizenship status of the transgender person she insists on treating unequally. That doesn't fly. She has no special, superior citizenship rights because she professes Christianity. Changing one's sex does not (at least legally) make one a second-class citizen and reduce one to having fewer rights and protections than others. It is reasonable to view both parties as equals in terms of rights and protections.

There actually are examples of the second argument, like the right to discriminate against someone for having been convicted of a felony supersedes the right of the felon to not suffer from discrimination for it. The question, then, is whether her claim of a religious right to discriminate supersedes the rights of protection for those against whom she discriminates. For this argument to have merit, we have to look at both the nature of the right to discriminate and the right of freedom from that same discrimination. We must understand both the right claimed and the discrimination perpetrated.

This clerk is claiming a religious right to discriminate. Here again, there are two ways to look at this: 1) being a member of her religion gives her the right to discriminate against anyone violating her religion, or 2) her religion commands her to discriminate against others (supposedly those who possess certain qualities or engage in certain taboo practices), making discrimination itself a protected religious practice.

The first perspective denies the other person's right to belong to a different religion, or not follow any religion at all. It is either a claim that her religion is superior to all other systems of belief, or it is a declaration of war between all religions in all corners of society. To ban a transgender person from entering a fitting room because your religion opposes it is no different from banning them for wearing or not wearing a yarmulke. That is clearly an act of religious discrimination. Claiming a right to engage in religious discrimination waves your right of protection from religious discrimination.

All that's left is the case where her religion specifically commands her to discriminate, she would be in violation of her own religion if she did not, and to stop her is a discrimination against her own religious practice. This is kind of like when a Hasidic Jewish man is assigned a seat on an airplane next to a strange woman, whom his religion forbids him to sit next to, and he refuses to do so. The problem is that the person against whom she discriminates is another American citizen possessing equal rights, presumably not of her faith, and the discrimination is conducted in a public setting outside the practice of her religion. Just as the Hasidic Jewish man cannot order the woman off the plane because his religion won't let him sit next to her, the sales clerk can't bar the trans woman from the fitting room because her religion doesn't tolerate trans women in fitting rooms (but I would be curious to see that scripture). It is up to each to reconcile their faith with the realities of life in a world with people of differing belief without burdening others. To either kick the woman off the plane or ban the trans woman from the dressing room is to discriminate against them because of the religious belief of another person, and that is quite simply religious discrimination. If your religion commands you to discriminate, then it is incumbent upon you to find a way to deal with that without discriminating against anyone else (like buying two plane tickets or not working in the clothing department).

What shocks me most is the need to write this essay at all. It is truly amazing to me that this claim that freedom of religion gives one the right to discriminate against another American citizen gets as much traction as it does. The point I am trying to make is so glaringly obvious that I am perpetually stunned that there is any need to make it. You do not have the right to force your religion on others. You do not have the right to discriminate against those who do not practice your religion. To discriminate against someone for not practicing your religion is religious discrimination. This sales clerk is demanding her right to practice religious discrimination, and she is saying it is religious discrimination against her to prevent her from doing it. How utterly oxymoronic.

This clerk has no case. Mucho kudos to Macy's for doing the right thing and firing her.

 
In a recent incident of open, hostile, aggressive discrimination against a transgender woman, a store clerk in a Texas Macy's attempted to bar a trans woman from entering a women's fitting room, claim...
In a recent incident of open, hostile, aggressive discrimination against a transgender woman, a store clerk in a Texas Macy's attempted to bar a trans woman from entering a women's fitting room, claim...
 
 
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08:47 PM on 12/27/2011
Today I am 100% human rights (gay, trans, minority, religious, whatever), and know that this woman's reaction to the transwoman was altogether wrong. However, I grew up in an extreme right-wing Christian home and environment, and have a depth of knowledge and understanding of such people's thought and rationalization processes. I'm absolutely sure it really is completely against this religious woman's religious beliefs to accept transgendered people as anything but the physical gender "God"assigned them at birth. I am also certain it is completely against Macy's policies to discriminate against transgendered people. Putting those two things together, it was impossible for this religious woman to comply with her religious belief, the transwoman's request to enter the dressing room, and her employer's policy in this situation. It would have been acceptable though, and the best possible option for this religious woman, for her to simply ask the transwoman to wait a moment, while she found another associate who could let the transwoman into the dressing room with no religious conflict, thus not violating anyone's rights in the process. Even right-wing religious zealots have heard the phrase "Put the best construction on everything", although most don't give it a chance before lashing out towards anyone who doesn't align with their beliefs and values. Sad.
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Mary Hartery
Liberal Massachusetts-ite
05:41 PM on 12/21/2011
There is more evidence that those with religious zealotry continue to try and undermine all religious beliefs that do not coincide with their own: however, I would hope most people realize that while the clerk says she forbade the trans-woman to use the dressing room out of the clerk's faith, I hardly think it's going to wash, as it appears on the surface to be just a case of outright bigotry.

This situation, however, should not be seen as a "religious" question, but one of "moral superiority." Do Christians really believe that they are superior to everyone else in the country, or even in the whole world?

I am an atheist. I've been leaning in that direction for some time, now, probably the last few decades. I was told by someone who claimed to be a "Christian" that she felt "sorry" for me to not believe in her god. Isn't that a good example of someone who believes that an atheist is inferior to a Christian? I'm not stupid, I'm just a non-believer. But because I don't believe in a god doesn't mean I'm not a "good" person.

Her hatred prohibits her from not only understanding others, but keeps her from progressing toward a better future where everyone is free to practive their religion, regardless of what that might be, and where every member of the LGBT community is treated with the same respect as others want to be treated.
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Erica Keppler
11:03 AM on 12/19/2011
In a related court decision, the 11th District Court of Appeals (covering Alabama, Georgia, and Florida) has upheld a lower court's ruling that you can't use claims of religious belief to justify anti-LGBT discrimination on the job.
http://chronicle.com/blogs/ticker/appeals-court-rejects-christian-students-bid-for-reversal-of-her-expulsion/39257?sid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en
10:35 AM on 12/14/2011
The real problem: Jerry Sandusky, the Penn State pedophile accused of raping both young boys and girls would qualify to use the women's dressing room under the Macy's policy. There is no proof of transgender other than the person's word. There are no safeguards against the use of cameras and no protection for the privacy of women who may be shy because of weight or other issues. And what about the rape victim that suddenly finds a man outside the booth she is using. Perhaps Macy's needs separate LGBT dressing rooms for it's policy to work.
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Erica Keppler
12:52 PM on 12/14/2011
OMG what an offensive post. How dare you attempt to associate trans people with pedophiles. How dare you insinuate that keeping transpeople out of dressing rooms would make cispeople in there any more or less safe as a consequence. How dare you advocate for segregation motivated by unproven and unjustified fear mongering. We trans folk are harmless people. We are a threat to no one. Nor do we create opportunities for dangerous people. Dangerous people will be dangerous whether trans people are around or not. Isolating us does nothing to stop them, and only has a result of treating us like criminals without any trial or evidence. As for the rape victim, I have every sympathy for the brutality she has experienced, but I had absolutely nothing to do with that. I will not live a life of isolation and segregation just to make the hypothetically possible rape victim a little less likely to be startled. I am not a problem to be solved. Attitudes such as yours are. We are free and equal citizens of this country, and we will not tolerate being demonized, stigmatized, marginalized or isolated.
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LisaLore
Better a Smartass than a Dumbass
04:35 PM on 12/15/2011
Oh, and just a correction... since your wildly unlikely hypothetical included Jerry Sandusky, I should correct you about him raping both boys AND girls. I believe it was just boys. So he's not likely to find those in the women's changeroom anyway.
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bellestarrr#1
she done him wrong
08:13 PM on 12/12/2011
Christians.both born again and regular christians(non fundamentalist) always seem to forget the basic tenents of christianity..to love thy neighbor as thyself..judge not lest ye be judged by the same measure and follow the golden rule ..treat others as you would like to be treated...its that simple folks..you can call yourself christian by your mouth...its your actions that tell the story.
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Ioan Lightoller
Proud Married Gay Pagan Man
08:32 PM on 12/11/2011
I really get tired of the sometimes non-stop prosletyzing of Christians. There have been times I have told someone trying to prosletyze me "Thanks, but no thanks"--and they just go on as if I'd said nothing. A lot of backlash on Christians, especially fundamenatlist Christians, is that they just cannot leave people alone.

The Christian woman in this story simply does not have a case. You can believe as you wish to, but if that is going to interfere with your job, then find another.
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Shannon Barber
Gay, atheist, liberal and proud of it.
05:39 PM on 12/11/2011
I think it is pretty obvious that in this society, Christians generally have he upper hand. Every.Single.One. of those terrible anti LGBT laws is rooted in the Christian religion. People like Natalie Johnson are not the ones who need protection here. It is those who are non Christian and somehow embody characteristics that are considered to be "sinful" by the many sects of the Christian faith who need protecting here.

Just because she is religious does not mean she gets to impose those beliefs upon others in a public setting. The fact remains, no matter the semantics of this "protection of or protection from" situation, the bottom line remains that she worked there, she knew the policies, she refused to follow them, and was insubordinate. Therefore, legally, she has no leg to stand on. Most religious discrimination policies say "reasonable accommodations" with regards to one's practiced faith. Last I checked, the ability to discriminate against customers and fellow employees with whom I disagree does NOT fall under the heading of "reasonable."
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Erica Keppler
12:37 AM on 12/12/2011
"I have to say, as someone who is not a Christian, it's hard for me to believe Christians are a persecuted people in America. God-willing, maybe one of you one day will even rise up and get to be president of this country -- or maybe forty-four in a row. But that's my point, is they've taken this idea of no establishment as persecution, because they feel entitled, not to equal status, but to greater status."
- Jon Stewart
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LisaLore
Better a Smartass than a Dumbass
03:04 AM on 12/13/2011
Well put, both of you. I am a Christian, but I am against this attitude of entitlement, and fully support separation of church and state. If I can't respect someone else's freedom of (or from) religion, I don't deserve it myself.

Usually when a Christian in the western world complains about "persecution", it's when they get busted for trying to persecute OTHERS.

Sorta like "They won't let me picket funerals of gay HIV victims with my 'God Hates You Know Whats' sign, so they are persecuting me because I'm Christian!"

Or "they won't let me teach my religious origin myth as truth to everyone else's kids in science classes in public schools, so they're discriminating against me because of my faith."

Or "they won't let me spread the Good News of Jesus Christ at work, so they're persecuting me for my religion!"

To those who want the government to be Fundamentalist Christian (or whatever) and to force it on all citizens, "freedom of religion" means freedom to follow their religion or suffer.

If you want a taste of such a theocracy, visit Iran. Or Afghanistan under the Taliban.
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Kenneth Alton
11:46 AM on 12/11/2011
Since the dawn of the Republic, religion and democracy have been in conflict. God is, after all, an absolute ruler. And the Divine, being (by definition) both omnipotent and omniscient, perfect in all things and every way, one is hard put to argue against the "rightness" of such absolute power. Mere mortals were and are, however, a different story.

Jefferson tried to finesse this divide. So, in a manner of speaking, did Jesus, when he said "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" (Mathew 22:21). Yet starting with the Moral Majority, a new activist political Christianity emerged: Democracy would now be subject to a form of Christian theocracy, laws, judges, and politicians would now be subject to a test of religious correctness.

In a sense, this woman's claim is not about her religious freedom per se, rather it is a test against what the ever evolving grand experiment that is American democracy will be. Our Constitution is a delicate balance between force and freedom. The Republic is much changed since the Founding Fathers passed it into our hands - what will it be when we leave it to our children? Right or wrong or something in-between, both women are part of that never ending question.
01:19 AM on 12/11/2011
I have never understood the seeming effortlessness of the Christian far right to be offended by some people's very existence--and to claim discrimination if they are not allowed to discriminate against those people they hate.

They do not even seem to see the irony.

Boggles the mind.
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Ioan Lightoller
Proud Married Gay Pagan Man
11:57 AM on 12/11/2011
Blessed be to that Ilisa! That's because you have a bunch of people who think they have been born again and thus don't have to treat people they meet equally. The arrogance of some of them is just mind blowing.
01:03 AM on 12/11/2011
Hate is not a "Religious" right. Christians need to back of on trying to force their religon on everyone else.
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WheelsOnFire
Fiercely Independent
07:03 PM on 12/11/2011
Exactly.

The endless proselytizing by the christians is an affront to decent people everywhere.

It's also yet another indication of their arrogance, intolerance, and self-centeredness.
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eliasasm
08:10 PM on 12/10/2011
It is absurd that this, like Ms Keppler states, is even an issue. What is the issue is that this seems to be happening more and more all the time. It's realy unfortunate for all of us that these so called christians can't take all that energy, wasted time and money and actually do what they profess to be the followers of. I truly believe that if they would do this, instead of looking for ways to be offended or persecuted, that there would not be one needy person on the planet. Isn't that the original intent?
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Ioan Lightoller
Proud Married Gay Pagan Man
11:58 AM on 12/11/2011
That has always been my impression. But it's so much easier to look down on and discriminate against those of which they don't approve.
07:37 PM on 12/10/2011
Is there an argument to be made that women using a Macy's dressing room have a right to expect it to be limited to anatomical females since it's labeled "Women?"

I understand that some people identify as women while remaining physically male, but aren't dressing rooms segregated by anatomy rather than identity? And if so, isn't the label misleading?
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Erica Keppler
08:01 PM on 12/10/2011
What a tired old argument for discrimination. Just as it used to be argued that white women had a right to expect that only white women would be in their spaces. Do you have a right to expect that other people you encounter in a public space will only be people you feel comfortable around? Do you have a right to expect governments and businesses of public accommodations will enforce segregation to make sure you are only around the "right" kinds of people? No, you do not.

Now, do you have a right to expect some degree of privacy while trying on clothes? Certainly. That expectation of privacy is not defined by what you or anyone who might violate that privacy has between their legs. I would expect a store to have dressing room doors to close securely and provide a visual barrier to observation from anyone, regardless of there intimate anatomy. The only anatomy that matters in this situation are eyes, and most people, regardless of their sex or gender identity, have those.
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valkygrrl
Hail Eris
09:07 PM on 12/10/2011
What makes you think it is labeled "women"? Odds are if it's like my local Macy's thee are just fitting rooms and the ones near the women's clothes tend to be used by women, the segregation is assumed but not backed by anything. And considering it is just a row of stalls I don't know what difference it makes anyway.
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LisaLore
Better a Smartass than a Dumbass
03:56 AM on 12/13/2011
Yup, if they're all private, it's no big deal. Some stores (in general, I don't know about Macy's) have an area outside the stalls (or just the main part of the store itself) where you can go to look at the outfit in bigger mirrors. But even that's no big deal. You only need privacy when you're actually changing clothes.

And transpeople have money too, and have the right to try stuff on before buying too. And making them go to the changerooms in the other section is ridiculous (and possibly dangerous for them).

I actually did see a transwoman trying on clothes near me in a non-Macy's store and no one raised a fuss. Mind you, I'm not in Texas... *ducking*

She hardly looked at anyone else, just went about her business. If anything, they're usually more scared of something bad happening to them or their privacy or rights being violated than genetic women, especially if they don't "pass" very well yet.
07:18 PM on 12/10/2011
There were a few fellows, some oh, 10years back, while not US citizens, who were also interested in using their religion to 'discriminate' against people they believed inferior due to their very existence. They flew a few planes into some buildings. Remember them? By this woman's logic, had they been U.S. Citizens, they would have been fully within their rights. Different scale I know... just using the rights "jump to the biggest extreme" to make your point methodology.
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Erica Keppler
08:06 PM on 12/10/2011
Freedom to commit mass murder, devastate the lives of family of those lost, destroy massive buildings representing enormous wealth, cripple a nation's economy, and create mourning in the hearts of hundreds of millions of Americans? You think that I in any way would advocate such a thing a falling under "religious freedom"? That is a truly sick thing to say, and you disgrace the memory of those lost in saying such a thing. You should be ashamed of yourself.
08:20 PM on 12/10/2011
Wow. Not sure where you went with that.

I was pointing out by this woman's logic and her 'freedom' to do as she pleases because she feels her religion provides her some sort of superiority to do so, that those men on 9/11 had they been American citizens would have been within their rights as well. Again, in HER world, with HER rules as you have stated that she felt she had the right to do.

Where you get that I was referring to you or in any way suggesting that was what you were advocating.

Might I suggest... in the future... take a deep breath, not all of us are out to get you. Some are actually on your side, and support your point of view as I was doing in my comment.

When you fight everyone, you set yourself up for a war you cannot win. Though, I will just go with, "When you argue with someone on the internet... your both losers."

So. My apologies for your misunderstanding what I was saying.
05:12 PM on 12/10/2011
I'm not a believer, but I don't blame belief/religion. People are taught bigotry and it's a shame that religion is a method used for that. As the columnist said, there's no part of christian scripture forbidding trans people from using department store changing rooms. People justify the prejudices they're taught by seeking out whichever dogma allows them to feel the least guilty about it.
01:24 AM on 12/11/2011
And they can overcome their fears and prejudices. They just need to be adult about thee things.
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Ioan Lightoller
Proud Married Gay Pagan Man
12:03 PM on 12/11/2011
Exactly.
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92102
Friends Don't Let Friends Watch FOX News
08:09 AM on 12/10/2011
I'm surprised I haven't seen the "Friends" at FOX freaking out about this case.
09:41 AM on 12/11/2011
Probably because Macy's is a big advertiser, especially this time of year.