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Evelyn Leopold

Evelyn Leopold

Posted: February 4, 2010 10:18 AM

Liveliest Debate Over Goldstone Gaza Report is in Israel Itself

What's Your Reaction:

The liveliest debate over the Goldstone report on Israel's conduct in Gaza is not taking place within the United Nations or in the United States, but among Israelis themselves -- especially journalists, intellectuals and human rights groups.

For many Arabs and visceral anti-Zionists, the report in September by Judge Richard Goldstone is a "gotcha moment" -- Palestinians good, Israelis bad. For many friends of Israel, the Jewish state can do no wrong. Goldstone, the South African jurist whose history of investigating war crimes around the world is legion, is vilified beyond recognition. Up to 1400 Palestinians died in the Gaza war compared to 13 Israelis.

But while the report was widely attacked in Israel, many are reviewing it seriously without necessarily accepting it as gospel. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon late on Thursday released a report for the 192-member General Assembly on written submissions from Israel and the Palestinian Authority, saying it was too early to determine whether their investigations were independent, credible and conformed to international standards..

Said Uri Avnery, the former Knesset member and veteran peace activist, over the initial Israeli government response:

The instinctive reaction in such a situation is denial. It's just not true. It never happened. It's all a pack of lies. By itself, that is a natural reaction. When a human being is faced with a situation which he cannot handle, denial is the first refuge. If things did not happen, there is no need to cope... From this point of view, it can be said that denial is almost 'normal.' But with us it has been developed into an art form.

The 575-page Goldstone report, a UN fact-finding mission, investigated the three-week war in Gaza that began on Dec. 24, 2008, saying that both Israel and Palestinian militants engaged in actions that amounted to war crimes and crimes against humanity.

It condemned rocket attacks by Hamas, but reserved its sharpest criticism of Israel's treatment of the population, saying it was deliberate and disproportionate and destroyed its economic ability to support itself. The report analyzed 36 cases, and said in all but one there was no justifiable military objective. The Palestinians, it said, fired rockets that were aimed at Israeli civilians or risked hitting civilians and caused widespread trauma, a war crime.

Goldstone recommended both sides initiate credible investigations within six months. Otherwise he suggested, the war crimes issue be referred to the UN Security Council which could pass it on to the International Criminal Court (which in reality the Council won't do).

Hamas gave UN officials in Gaza its response, which as expected, rejected all allegations and said its killing of Israeli civilians in rocket attacks was accidental. The Palestinian Authority, which does not control Gaza, said its report would include the creation of a commission of five judges and experts for a "very independent and credible investigation," according to its UN representative, Riyad Mansour.

The government of Benjamin Netanyahu, which refused to cooperate with the Goldstone commission, has castigated the report as biased and distorted, in light of Palestinian militants firing thousands of rockets into Israel over several years. But it now delivered what the Israeli press calls a well-argued response. Amos Harel, a correspondent of the Haaretz newspaper, said the rebuttal showed "the country can, in fact respond to accusations with more than complaints of anti-Semitism."

Israel also for the first time disclosed that disciplinary measures were taken against senior commanders in the Gaza offensive, known as Operation Cast Lead, for firing at a United Nations compound. (Israel last month paid the United Nations $10.5 million for damage to its property).

The 45-page Israeli report defended military investigations, explained the country's judicial system and listed some 150 incidents it said the army was investigating. The Netanyahu government also is considering forming a committee that would evaluate the war, depending on the UN deliberations. (Advocates of an inquiry include a former Supreme Court president and a deputy prime minister.)

Much of the criticism of the Israeli army is by Haaretz correspondents. The newspaper also quoted soldiers who fought in Gaza, saying that Israeli forces killed Palestinian civilians under permissive rules of engagement and intentionally destroyed property.

But the conservative Jerusalem Post, which editorially blasted the Goldstone commission, also ran dissenting views, including a defense by Goldstone himself. And blogs and websites have joined the debate since the September release of the report.

Writing in The Jerusalem Post, columnist Larry Derfner said of Israel's reaction to the report:

This is the Israeli notion of a fair deal: We're entitled to do whatever the hell we want to the Palestinians because, by definition, whatever we do to them is self-defense. They, however, are not entitled to lift a finger against us because, by definition, whatever they do to us is terrorism.

Editorially, The Jerusalem Post said, "No army engaged on multiple fronts against irregular force, embedded among a supportive enemy population is more ethnical or takes greater care to avoid harming innocents than the IDF."

But the questions for many Israelis are: Will Israel set up any kind of inquiry rather than let the army investigate itself? And would such an independent inquiry leave it open to more criticism or judicial threats than the Goldstone report?

 
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Rachel Brownlee
02:19 PM on 02/05/2010
There's little debate in Western countries because the media refuses to hardly even acknowledge the Goldstone report exists. I bet 9 and a half out of 10 Americans would not even know what it is.
The only time it is ever mentioned is in the same sentence as the words anti-Semitism.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
muck-raker
give me liberty or give me death
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Richard Pearce
Atheistic-agnostic Canadian polymath
08:31 AM on 02/05/2010
Despite the claim that debate and self-criticism are 'rare in Arab countries' such debate has taken place amongst Palestinians (but ignored) as can be seen by the stance of the Palestinian Center for Human RIghts.

But your quick dismissal of the Hamas response to the Goldstone report ignores the conundrum it places Israel and its supporters in. They have basically adopted the same position that Israel takes, that they are in fact aiming at military targets, and that the reason for the civilians being killed is a result of the other side hiding amongst them.

Israel and its supporters can (and do) reject this for Hamas, but accept it for Israel, but it is unlikely that many who are not blindly willing to accept such blatant double standards to excuse Israel's behaviour will.
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CigarGod
What is your process?
09:32 AM on 02/05/2010
This needs to be pointed out, regularly.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Richard Pearce
Atheistic-agnostic Canadian polymath
09:48 AM on 02/05/2010
Just out of curiosity, do you know if HP has ever carried a piece from Maan news?

BTW, if you ever want to find out was Israel has been doing to Palestinians, check out the Palestinian Center for Human Rights website. Not only do they track what Palestinians are doing to each other (with a lot more detail and nuance than you'll findjust about everywhere else), but they have a weekly report on what Israel has done to Palestinians, going back to 2000. It makes for interesting reading (especially those weeks before any rockets flew, which make the Israeli justifications offered for Cast Lead ring very hollow)

http://pchrgaza.org/

You can even find a detailed list of the Palestinian casualties of Cast Lead, which includes a rating of whether they were civilians or combatants (and is the only list I've seen that puts some police officers in one category, and some in the other)
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Wisdo
semantics shamantics
07:37 AM on 02/05/2010
Writing in The Jerusalem Post, columnist Larry Derfner said of Israel's reaction to the report:

"This is the Israeli notion of a fair deal: We're entitled to do whatever the hell we want to the Palestinians because, by definition, whatever we do to them is self-defense. They, however, are not entitled to lift a finger against us because, by definition, whatever they do to us is terrorism."

Precisely. But one can go further: Israel's "jews only" roads, its roadblocks and checkpoints are all part of the "self defense" mission, but they are in "defence" of a network of illegal settlements. No settlements, no need for the "defensive" military occupation, and a major source of the resentment and violence coming from palestinians.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
muck-raker
give me liberty or give me death
08:41 AM on 02/05/2010
excellent post,

No settlements, no need for the "defensive" military occupation, and a major source of the resentment
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Rachel Brownlee
02:22 PM on 02/05/2010
Spot on Wisdo.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Rachel Brownlee
05:00 AM on 02/05/2010
Dershowitz says "...his credibility has suffered a fatal blow as the result of his association with such bigotry"
Oh, the irony.
06:43 PM on 02/04/2010
Zionists declared their own statehood in 1948 and generously gave themselves 56% of the land in Palestine. Considering that the number of jews living in Palestine before the 1930s was less than 10% of the population and that the great majority of the Jewish immigration after WW1 was illegal it's hard not to see this as a simple case of land theft.

The behavior of the zionists during 1948 when they massacred Palestinians in their homes and drove them from their villages only confirms this. Many of these massacres (such as the one at Deir Yassin) occurred before Egypt or any other country in the middle east declared War on Israel in response to Israel's declaration of statehood.

Land theft, terrorism and massacre of the native population is no way to start a country. If modern day supporters of Israel were to acknowledge some of these sins of the past then we might be able to get somewhere with the peace process.
01:01 AM on 02/05/2010
A good post. People forget the grand theft that Israel has perpetuated against the Palestinians and is still continuing to do so today.

They LIE - misrepresenting the truth; they CHEAT - by changing the rules to their advantage and they STEAL - property, education, medical treatment, land, a complete cultural wayof life.

IT'S DISGUSTING BEYOND WORDS.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
muck-raker
give me liberty or give me death
08:45 AM on 02/05/2010
excelllent post.

The behavior of the zionists during 1948 when they massacred Palestinians in their homes

today the above is hard to find as Israel rewrites history on a daily basis. The deliberate attempt to sink the USS Liberty is all but forgotten because the hundreds of links that had info were disbanded and removed from circulation on threat of law suit.
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Evelyn Leopold
Veteran UN correspondent
02:05 PM on 02/04/2010
Appreciate your comments. Keep them coming.

To Woodshoe, Agree, Israel can do its own dissecting; To StCuthbert and Rozgony – The Gaza offensive was almost like shooting fish in a barrel.. Those close to Sharon believe he would not have invaded. And I doubt the pizza parlor murderers will be dissuaded. The question is whether it made Israeli any safer and wiser?

And the point of my story is that Israelis are debating this, including some of the soldiers involved. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072475.html. Gray shades are always more enlightening than black and white. (Sadly Oslo did not work, the Palestinians were inflexible and Rabin was murdered)
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
StCuthbert
Anytime the mods are ready...
03:25 PM on 02/04/2010
Ms. Leopold,

The question of whether the Gaza offensive makes Israel any safer is a good one that is very much debatable.

In Israel's history or indeed world history in general, lasting peace has most often come after a decisive military victory. The peace treaty with Egypt came a few years after Israel's decisive victory in the 1973 war, and the Lebanon border has been relatively quiet ever since Israel's 2008 invasion (as flawed as that was). Today in Gaza, over a year later, rocket attacks have all but ceased, and Hamas is steadily losing support (of course, this may be also because of the blockade).

So to answer your question, look at Gaza today. The borders are quiet and Hamas has taken to sending bombs through beaches, presumably because they are too scared to send rockets. So violence has stopped. Does that make Israel safer in the long run? I think yes. The sooner Hamas either realizes Israel cannot be destroyed or is destroyed themselves, the sooner the Palestinians can be represented by a group that actually wants peace and we can get somewhere.

What do you think?
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Evelyn Leopold
Veteran UN correspondent
07:22 PM on 02/04/2010
Greetings again. I find it difficult to generalize about war. Each conflict is its own nightmare. You are right that Hamas has kept the border relatively quiet in a “rocket cease-fire.†But not completely. A second rocket fired from the Gaza in 24 hours struck Israel late on Wednesday but caused no damage. True also that Hamas’ popularity has dropped among the people of Gaza, according to polls, because it was unable to protect them and provoked a war with Israel it could not win. But that does not excuse the number of deaths, the loss of livelihoods that the IDF inflicted. Not much has changed for the better in Gaza, within the Palestinian political community or arrangements with Israel. It still seems like a powder keg. As for Lebanon, the war there weakened a pro-Western regime, increasing the popularity of Hezbollah, which can now join a coalition government. Hard questions. Tough answers.
06:05 PM on 02/04/2010
Yes, the Palestinians were "inflexible" at Oslo. How silly of them not to accept a patchwork country comprised of South African style Bantustans, a state which would have been economically, politically and logistically untenable to operate.

I suppose you consider yourself a "moderate" in these matters Ms. Leopold? That's pretty funny if you do.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
muck-raker
give me liberty or give me death
02:04 PM on 02/04/2010
In other words, because Freeman was not an overboard apologist for Israel’s crimes he was unacceptable to the Israel Lobby.

Ha'aretz reports: “The next attempt to appoint an intelligence aide, in this case, former Republican senator Chuck Hagel, also resulted in vast criticism over his not having a pro-Israel record.†The Israel Lobby has blocked Hagel’s appointment by President Obama. Hagel doesn’t want to start a war with Iran for Israel’s benefit and was blackballed by Morton A. Klein, the president of the Zionist Organization of America. Hagel, it seems, “refused to sign a letter calling on then-president George Bush to speak about Iran’s nuclear program at the G8 summit that year.â€

Now it is a Jewish daughter of a Holocaust survivor, Hannah Rosenthal, whose appointment to head the US Office to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism, an office that is another indication of America’s puppet state status, is under attack. Rosenthal was the head of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs during 2000-2005. Her black mark came from serving on the advisory board of the J Street Lobby, a recently-formed American Jewish organization formed in opposition to AIPAC’s murderous militarism.

The Israel Lobby’s opposition to Hannah Rosenthal shows that no moral person can survive the Israel Lobby’s blackball.

The US, “the world’s only superpower,†has no independent voice in Middle Eastern affairs. The real power rests in the hands of the settler thug, Avigdor Lieberman, Deputy Prime Minister of Israel and
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muck-raker
give me liberty or give me death
02:02 PM on 02/04/2010
In March 2003 American citizen Rachel Corrie stood in front of an Israeli bulldozer, made by Caterpillar and sent to destroy a Palestinian home. Her courageous act of defiance was regarded as an annoyance, and she was run over and murdered by the Israeli bulldozer operator. Israel suffered no consequences for its murder of an American citizen who had a moral conscience.

In the Israeli-controlled American media, we hear endlessly that Palestinians are terrorists who strap on explosives in order to kill innocent Israelis and who terrorize Israeli towns by firing rockets into them. One look at the maps above is enough to make clear who the real terrorist is.
The Israeli newspaper, Ha'aretz, which also has a moral conscience and is intelligent to boot, wrote on December 4, 2009: “Every appointee to the American government must endure a thorough background check by the American Jewish community.â€

Ha'aretz notes that any American that the President of the United States proposes for an appointment to his government is subject to the approval of the Israel Lobby, which can blackball appointees at will.

Ha'aretz gives the example of Charles Freeman, whom President Obama intended to appoint as head of the National Intelligence Council. The Israel Lobby proved, again, that it was more powerful than a mere American President and prevented the appointment, citing Freeman’s “anti-israel leaning.†In other words, because Freeman was not an overboard apologist for Israel’s crimes he was unacceptable to the Israel Lobby
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
muck-raker
give me liberty or give me death
02:00 PM on 02/04/2010
Settlers attack West Bank mosque †was a London Times headline on December 11, 2009.

These attacks, together with the demolition of Palestinian homes, the uprooting of Palestinians’ olive groves, the innumerable checkpoints that prevent Palestinians from accessing schools, work, and medical care, the Israeli Wall that denies Palestinians access to the land stolen from them, and the isolation and blockade of the Gaza Ghetto, are part of the Israeli government’s policy of genocide for the Palestinians.

The Israel Lobby has such power over America that even former President Jimmy Carter, a good friend of Israel, is demonized for using the polite term--apartheid--for the genocide that has occurred over the decades during which American “Christian†preachers, together with bought-and-paid-for politicians, justified Israel’s policy of slow genocide for Palestine.

Israelis who still have a moral conscience--a small part of the population--endeavor to use moral protests against the inhumanity of the Israeli government. Israelis Jeff Halper and Angela Godfrey-Goldstein lead the Israeli Committee Against House Demolition (ICAHD), a non-violent, direct-action group established to oppose and resist Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in the Occupied Territories.

Under international law an occupier by military force is forbidden to steal the occupied land. The US, however, has protected Israel’s violation of international law for decades by vetoing UN resolutions. Israel has been able to steal Palestine from the Palestinians, because the US government used its power to prevent Israel from being held accountable
01:56 PM on 02/04/2010
The Goldstein report did not state that Israel is the only one at fault, although the continued responses on all comment threads appear to indicate that Hamas is whiter than the driven snow and innocent of anything, and Israel is the Evil Occupier. First, Israel does NOT occupy Gaza, or Israel. Gaza is under Syrian *occupation*, i.e. Hamas. Second the Goldstein report indicates that Hamas is also at fault. There is one operation, Cast Lead, and there are eight preceding years of Qassam rockets, abductions, murder, etc. under discussion here. There was also handing over of Gaza, and there was the murder of Fatah members by Hamas, both Gaza Palestinians. All wiped out of sight, as if nothing at all. Gaza Palestinians have choices in whom they elect and how they behave. Attacks and murder usually do lead to response in kind, whereas requests for cooperation are also honored. After Cast Lead, Gaza continues, if at a decreased rate, to shoot off Qassams, which have landed in a.o. Berber territory in the Negev. This week they are floating barrels of explosives, which may land anywhere, even in Lebanon, and destroy anyone, even Arabs. When Gaza was handed over help, including private financial aid by Wolfowitz, was offered and declined. Abbas stated that they had other plans for Gaza. We now know what those plans were, and Abbas has received further information on that issue, such as murder of Fatah membership.
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woodshoe
MAYDAY! BastaYA!
02:08 PM on 02/04/2010
*Goldstone
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03:20 PM on 02/04/2010
Why highlight the rockets fired from one side and ignore the far more lethal ones fired by the other side over the preceding 8 years. In the same vein why highlight the abductions of one side while ignoring the far larger numbers of abductions by the other again over the preceding 8 years?
Your narrative only works if you ignore substantial parts of the story as usual.
The Syrian occupation part was at least funny.
04:07 PM on 02/04/2010
No one is ignoring Israel's having fired

Why are YOU ignoring Hamas' culpability?
01:36 PM on 02/04/2010
If one does not prevent war and individual criminal acts such as murder when one knows and has proof of the intent, or even more so proof of continuous execution of such acts, one becomes complicit in the murder if one does NOT take measures. Israel has been far too lenient for far too long and this has allowed the cancer of terrorism to mestastasize all over the world. The operation Cast Lead was NOT a mistake; it was necessary. The building of the wall was not a mistake; it was necessary. Both are preventing continuous murder aimed @ civilians. Hamas does not identify itself. It has no uniforms, it does not wear identifying armbands, it mingles with the population and so uses the population as both a shield and an excuse. Hamas is a Syrian operated government in Gaza. It has failed to protect the Palestinians in Gaza by not wearing, again, uniforms, or identification, by not building bomb shelters, and exposed the population because of its declarations of war and war operations.
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woodshoe
MAYDAY! BastaYA!
01:47 PM on 02/04/2010
you might consider employing paragraphs, they might make your assertions and conjecture more "readable".. at least from a 'style' standpoint that is.. still wouldn't mitigate the wacky analysis.
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03:26 PM on 02/04/2010
You're trying to say that terrorism stems exclusively from Palestine?
I could point out that were the Palestinians to build bomb shelters the IDF would utilize bunker busters against them and that the Israeli State stop the entry of building supplies into Gaza but what would be the point in asking reality to intrude on your world.
I could also ask why if the wall was so vital it couldn't be built on Israeli land? You may also wish to look into the differing availability of shelters in Israel dependent on the sectarian make up of the resident population.
01:30 PM on 02/04/2010
Countries have governments. Those governments are elected for specific purposes. For Israel and for the U.S., a.o., it is to defend and protect its population. IF the population is under constant attack for eight or more years in a specific area, AND measures are taken, and gestures have been made, to initiate and assure Peace, such as was done in the handing over of Gaza in 2005, at great personal cost of Israelis, and the only result is INCREASED ATTACK, the population will demand action against such attack. Israelis did just that and elected a new government. Then they demanded action from that government. That is what brought about Cast Lead. It was a defensive and precautionary action to prevent even more attacks and bloodshed on both sides of the border, and that includes Palestinians in Gaza. It is not allowed to murder, except in the case where one is certain that someone comes to murder YOU. Then it is allowed to act first to prevent that murder. That is logical, because there is not much one can do if one is dead to defend onself. The facts on the ground (suicide and othr bombings, Qassams, threats, kidnappings plus murder of the kidnapped, etc.), plus assurances to be at war by both Fatah and Hamas, justify Israel's action which was taken after years and years and numerous warnings to no avail. The victims of Palestinian and other Arab action are not Israelis and jews only.
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03:30 PM on 02/04/2010
You are now attempting to say that you had to kill a proportion of the population of Gaza so that you could save them?
The years prior to this were not filled with warnings, the I.D.F. never stopped attacks in either the West Bank or Gaza during that period or the abduction of hundreds of Palestinians. The operation was just an escalation of the I.D.F. actions in the occupied territories.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
muck-raker
give me liberty or give me death
08:54 AM on 02/05/2010
Garioch
I believe you are talking about the entire Democratically elected legislators that were kidnapped and now in Israeli jails. I find this ironic that the USA constantly speaks of Democracy by the people and then when they do it and it does not come out as planned it is OK to abduct them.
01:20 PM on 02/04/2010
OCCUPATION is when a foreign nation, which has its own territory elsewhere comes in with military force to take over an existing country. Israel is a different case. There is no other nation of jews, or Israelis. Israelis were either born in Israel or are legal immigrants there, and residents. If THAT is occupation, then all the muslim residing in countries other than their countries of origin are OCCUPIERS. IF it is allowed to RANDOMLY MURDER those who were born in a country, or legally immigrated there and are residents there, or, for that matter any other person at random, then, of course, ARABS and MUSLIM should not be an exception to that, and also be allowed targets. So, everyone, any Arabs or Muslim around that were not there before - go right ahead: shoot them on first sight, or, keep harassing them with Qassams, rock attacks, terrorist bombers, car bombs, stolen airoplane bombs, whatever! Makes sense to anyone? Of course, it does NOT make sense. But, in Israel there is open debate, not whitewashing by everyone of events, discussion and argument. If there were another method to defend the population and individuals and to prevent murderous criminality against the population, and it is found, it will be applied. There is rigorous soulsearching going on, contrary to what the muslim crowd is doing. They are always right and justified, and their *morality* even if in direct opposition to generally accepted morality, always is victorious.
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woodshoe
MAYDAY! BastaYA!
11:00 AM on 02/04/2010
also, regarding this;
[One of Israel's most prolific American defenders is attorney Alan Dershowitz, who has written a meticulous analysis of Goldstone's methodology, which he says "documents the distortions, misuse of evidence and bias of the report." Of Goldstone, he says, "his credibility has suffered a fatal blow as the result of his association with such bigotry. It is not surprising, therefore, that critics are questioning his motives."]

dershowitz has been long exposed as a flak propagandist in this regard, who develops his own 'theories' and then dissects the data selectively in order to buttress his own assertions.

a great fleshing out of all of this (for those with the patience to endure an extremely wonky discussion/debate.) can be found on the youtube in the form of a debate between the aforementioned dershowitz and dissident noam chomsky.. no detail is spared,.. and chomsky ultimately deftly cuts through the dershiganda;

here is the youtube playlist for the debate;
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=676068E512AEA685

"Chomsky and Dershowitz debate Israel and Palestine"