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Maybe Hamas is Not so Stupid
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Hamas, Israel, Israel Airstrikes, Israel Gaza Airstrikes, Israel Gaza Operation, Israeli Airstrikes, Israeli-Palestinian Conflict,
World News
Maybe Hamas isn't so stupid after all. People on both sides of the Gaza crisis have been shaking their heads, why would Hamas break the ceasefire and launch rockets into Israel? They had to know the Armageddon type response that would follow. Hamas had to know that the strikes would bring carnage to their own people. And that is precisely what has happened. More than 400 Palestinians have been killed, and there are upwards of 1600 wounded.
But this destruction has also been the fuse for worldwide demonstrations in support of the Palestinians. Until recently few in the west seemed to care much about conditions in Gaza. We care now. Judged as a piece of political theater, Hamas has succeeded in presenting Israel as the golem on the block. The fusillades from Israeli planes and warships have also had the effect of galvanizing Hamas' political base.
By all accounts, the vast majority of people in Gaza were averse to the rocket attacks and less than fervent in their support of Hamas. However, as Israeli planes hit mosques and image after image floats up of critically wounded Palestinian children being rushed to the hospital (whenever they can find a hospital!) Hamas receives a transfusion of support.
I believe that the Israeli response to the attacks has been disproportionate to the threat and so in violation of codes of conduct outlined by Just War Theory. There are, of course, many of the conviction that a country can do anything it deems necessary to defend itself against aggression. After all, there is nothing sacred about Just War theory. But even so, from a practical point of view, the Israeli military machine may have rumbled into the trap of triggering world attention and sympathy for the denizens of Gaza. Moreover, the bombings and invasion have accomplished another Hamas objective. They have rendered it more difficult for Arab leaders to advocate the olive branch.
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Israel cannot win the war for world opinion, any more than the British could win the war against Gandhi, or France could win the Battle of Algiers. The world is never going to side with Goliath against David, even if the latest Goliath is Jewish. Hamas knows this very well. Human hatred of strength oppressing weakness is universal. Olmert was right: Israel MUST give up the West Bank and East Jerusalem to the Palestinians and make peace ASAP. If it does not, it is doomed. Obama, Clinton, and Mitchell will be the perfect facilitators for this peace AND Israel's only hope for survival.
You might be right. Very clever on the part of those crafty Hamasians. Their strategy is not working out very well for the Palestinian civilians though. Does that fact count for anything?
Bush Plan Eliminated Obstacle to Gaza Assault
Hamas won 56 percent of the seats in the Palestinian parliament in the January 2006 elections,
The Bush administration immediately began to use its control over the "Quartet" (the U.S., European Union, United Nations and Russia), to try to reverse the results of the election.
Meanwhile, the Bush administration and the Europeans cut off all financing for the Palestinian government, while Israel refused to hand over to the Palestinian authorities the VAT and customs duties it collected on behalf of the Palestinians under the Paris Protocol signed with the PLO.
When Abbas continued to resist U.S. demands, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told him that she would not accept a Palestinian government with Hamas participation.
There was one problem, however, with the U.S. demand: under Article 45 of the Palestinian Authority's "Basic Law", Abbas could fire the prime minister, but he could not appoint a new one who did not represent the majority party.
Alvaro de Soto, then U.N. Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, wrote ...that the U.S. "clearly pushed for a confrontation between Fatah and Hamas..." He recalled that the "U.S. envoy" to a meeting had twice declared, "how much I like this violence", because "it means that other Palestinians are resisting Hamas."
That U.S. envoy was Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/05/bush-plan-eliminated-obst_n_155385.html
In the latest exchange between Mr Marino and Jackson Jones, ya'all can see why I choose to take replies to the top of the commentary... :^/
Michale.....
Many world's problem requires a more effective world government, the United Nations. According to the UN resolution, if the Arabs renouce violence, Israel is obligated to return the Arabs land. Hamas should voice their complaints about Israel peacefully. For a weaker power, the path to its people's dignity is through non-violence principle of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. Israel should consult the UN regardiing how to deal with the Hamas' rocket attacks. The Abrabs Peace Initiative based on the UN resolution is a good principle for permanent Middle East peace. If Obama really wants to break away from Bush's policy and become a true leader of the world, he should find ways to strengthen the UN. One problem with the UN is it is not democratic, so a better UN would be more democratic. Many work needs to be done in international law. Until powerful nations decide to adhere internation laws, there will be no peace on earth. For example, the veto power of the UN security councile present a conflict of interests, which should be abondonded in order to be more democratic.
Unfortunately when Michale sees westerners die it is terrorism and when Muslims die it is collateral damage.
@realpolitic
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Man, are you crazy. You say that blockading a civilian populatin and denying them water is not terrorism.
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Please provide me with your definition of terrorism that encompasses a military blockade..
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It is hard to argue with a guy who can define right and wrong to whatever suits him at the moment. If Muslims denied westerners water, you would be shouting terrorism at the top of your lungs.
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Assumes facts not in evidence.
However, if enforcing a blockade is your definition of terrorism, then the US blockade of CUBA was terrorism, the Russian blockade of Berlin was terrorism and Egypt's blockade of Gaza is terrorism..
Are you SURE you want to stick with your current definition??
Unlike yours, my definition of terrorism is set, definitive, objective and, above all else, accurate...
Michale......
Michale, we are not just talking abut semantics. Real people are dying as you sit there boosting about whose definition of terrorism is more efficient. Listen, if a military uses a blockade to starve a civilian population or the deny them water, I would call it an act of terrorism.
That is your opinion..
It is not based on facts. It is based on emotion..
Be that as it may, consider this..
Hamas is able to evade the blockade and import THOUSANDS (their words, not mine) of tons of weapons, military hardware and missiles..
Maybe Hamas should consider importing water instead, eh???
It's not Israel's job to care for the people of Gaza.. It's Hamas' job...
Michale.....
I thought we were speaking hypothetically. I did not know Israel was really blocking supplies from reaching Gaza. Well, it is tragic.
CHRISTIAN AID CONDEMNS ISRAEL'S BLOCKADE OF GAZA
Since Hamas took power last June, Gaza has been subjected to severe restrictions on movement that have allowed in only a drip-feed of aid, preventing a full-scale humanitarian emergency but keeping the population in a perpetual state of economic crisis,' said Janet Symes, Christian Aid's Head of Middle East Programme.
The blockade has affected fuel supplies which led to Gaza's only power plant shutting down on Sunday night, leaving homes, hospitals and factories without electricity.
The lack of fuel also has implications for Gaza's water supply and sanitation infrastructure with rivers of untreated sewage already flowing through the streets and into homes in this densely populated strip of land.
The Near East Council of Churches, a Christian Aid partner organisation in Gaza, may have to shut down some health services at its clinics due to a lack of fuel for their refrigerators.
They also only have two days of fuel for their vehicles - an essential part of getting emergency relief assistance to poor families.
'I just can't cope. I don't know what to do. None of my sons can find work. There is no money to buy food.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefield/218275/120110166252.htm
@brutus948
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One difference. Native americans are not second class citizens. They have the same right as any other citizen in the US.
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I know many native Americans and I can assure you that they don't feel that way..
Until the terrorism stops, the Palestinians will continue to suffer..
That's the long and short of it..
Michale....
Yes, well you make sure they suffer then, Michale. I am glad that punishing entire populations for the actions of a few, does not come close to a collective punishment which does not fit the crime. I doubt the way to solve the problems in the Middle Eats is to punish the Palestinians. Bush has tried that strategy for eight years and now the Middle East is in flames. I thought the fact that we liberated Iraq was supposed to spread democracy like rain drops?
You misunderstand.. No shock there...
The Palestinians are suffering because of the actions of Hamas, not because of the actions of Israel...
This is a proven fact..
Michale....
Well, Hamas will come and go. This conflict has been going on long before Hamas arrived on the scene. At one time Fatah, at that time it was the PLO, said it would not negotiate with Israel either. Hamas does not have the power necessary to relieve the suffering of those in Gaza regardless. It would take a concerted effort. To blame the suffering of the people in Gaza on a political party that was elected a couple years ago is very simplistic.
@realpolitic
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Then by your justification if the Palestinians win the land back then it is their's.
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Exactly..
If the Palestinians can defeat Israel without terrorism, then they are the victors and to the victors, go the spoils..
If the Palestinians fought Israel in a WAR and didn't resort to terrorism, you would not here a peep outta me..
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You seem to define terrorism as any action by Arabs or Muslims against westerners. It is a very convenient definition.
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Actually, my definition of terrorism is well-known and hasn't changed...
"Terrorism is defined as ongoing and systematic attacks of violence specifically targeted against innocent civilian persons or property for the purpose of furthering a political, economical or ideological agenda."
Michale....
Michale, fortunately most nations have advanced beyond your notions of victor's justice. I thought that was why we fought Saddam the first time to get him out of Kuwait. Anyway, anytime American forces have killed innocent civilians you define it as collateral damage. By your reasoning, all the Palestinians have to do is to claim they were shooting at a military position to say it was not an act of terrorism. Of course, I do not think you will see the disconnect there. As many on the right, your sense of right and wrong is relative to whom the victim is..
I enjoyed your piece. But I think Isreal is doing a bang-up job of being Gollum all by itself. Without the aid of Hamas.
See Gordon Marino's Profile
You have a point. Thanks. Gordon
You might be right Mr. Marino, but if Hamas brought this upon the Palestinian people on purpose just to score political points, what does that make them? Let's see, what is worse than Gollum?
@Paul
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Even if Israels actions towards Gaza do not meet the threshold of terrorism, and even if the actions of Hamas do constitute terrorism, the response of Israel to Hamas is still counterproductive.
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In your opinion...
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You can say that 500+ Gazans deserved to die, that it is proper that they be starved and then bombed, but these actions Isolate Israel from her allies and strengthen Hamas inside Gaza and around the Arab world.
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Since I never claimed that, I am not sure what you mean...
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It would seem that Israel is only increasing the odds it will be a future victim of terrorism because Israel is making terrorism payoff for Hamas.
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Again, in YOUR opinion.. I would like to know what training, expertise or experience you have that would allow me to put credence into your opinion??
Michale.....
See Gordon Marino's Profile
I agree and it may well be morally wrong. Best, Gordon
Everything I post is my opinion and you are free to disagree.
I have no military credentials, but your explanations of Israel's actions in terms of 20th century military etiquette are simply irrelevent.
I assert that Hamas will be seen by Gazans as the defender of Gaza during the attack by israel and the rebuilder of Gaza after. Hamas will reap the political benefits of this. An article posted on this site yesterday by an Australian newspaper addresses this.
Israel must fight in the most difficult terrain imaginable, will take casualties doing so, yet they must ultimately withdraw. There is no way Israel can effectively occupy 1.5 million seething mad Gazans. Hamas will fill the vacuum - therefore I assert that Israel is creating the conditions for Hamas' success.
I assert that Isreal is becoming isolated from its allies - elsewhere on this site are articles describing the questioning of Israel's methods - even by American Jews.
Isn't it time Israel tried something that might actually succeed?
Paul, could not the same be said for Hamas?
It is very a clever plan to provoke a situation where you may be seen by some as the defender of Gaza when you are actually failing the Palestinians miserably.
Their strategy may win them a few recruits, and a few world sympathy points, but it is awfully hard on the Palestinian civilians.
I keep coming back to the rockets. How much food and medicine could Hamas buy instead? Makes it hard for one to be sympathetic.
Why is everyone making up "scenarios" instead of looking at the actual facts ? Israel stands on arab land - that is a fact. The Palestinians have been scattered to the four winds and have lived in horrible camps for 60 years, that is a fact. People from across the globe, with no legitimate claim to any mideastern land, have been allowed and encouraged to come live in Israel on arab land, that is a fact. The people in Israel have all sorts of rights that arabs do not, yet Israel is called a Democracy, that is a fact. Endless streams of American tax money support the social experiment called Israel, that is a fact. America is directly responsible for suppressing the Palestinian people, that is a fact. America's support for Israel has earned us the hatred of the arab world, that is a fact. Now, deal with some of these, please. And don't quote any bible verses to me, let's deal with reality.
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Why is everyone making up "scenarios" instead of looking at the actual facts ? Israel stands on arab land - that is a fact.
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You stand on native American land.. Assuming you are in the USA, this is ALSO a fact..
Are you going to give it back???
The "fact" is that Hamas is committing terrorism.. The renders ANY legitimacy their cause may have moot...
It's really REALLY simple. Hamas quits firing missiles at Israel and acknowledges Israel's right to exist...
BOOOM..
All the fighting stops...
Michale.....
One difference. Native americans are not second class citizens. They have the same right as any other citizen in the US.
Give palestinians their right to come back to israel and vote and you can claim this. Basically let this play out the same way that it played out in South Africa.
Until that happens what is going on in Israel is apartheid and nothing else.
Then by your justification if the Palestinians win the land back then it is their's. You seem to define terrorism as any action by Arabs or Muslims against westerners. It is a very convenient definition.
"Israel stands on Arab land - that is a fact"
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No it is not a fact. The territory of that region has been in dspute between Arabs and Jews for over 2000 years with no resolution. Deal with it.
"People from across the globe, with no legitimate claim to any mideastern land, have been allowed and encouraged to come live in Israel on arab land, that is a fact."
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To the victor goes the spoils. Deal with it.
"social experiment called Israel"
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Not a fact. Sorry, Israel is a country and Hamas/the Palestinians should recognize that or else there can be no peace between them.
America's support for Israel has earned us the hatred of the arab world, that is a fact.
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U.S. bulldog diplomacy in Arab affairs has earned us the hatred of the Arab world.
Your platitudes and generalizations are of no value Demigod, espeically your stating of facts that are not facts.
All of the comments above,I think have some merit, But for once ,can someone answer this question for me?If Canada was lofting rockets into America constantly,and had already had a somewhat truce prior, but had expired,does that give Canada the right to keep lofting rockets into America? ( two ?'s actually)
As I understood it,Israel had said that Hamas did not honor the truce,that they continually fired rockets every day. And it was a while before the truce even expired. hamas has gotten exactly what it wanted,the sympathy of other nations. They know very well that if women and children are in the crossfire,everyone will be in a uproar.
hamas does not care if children and women are killed, that's why they hide all their weapons in churches, schools homes etc. The more sympathy they are given the stronger they will get,and we will the next ones to be targeted. This is just my opinion, so don't jump down my throat about it. Thanks
@doriath22
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blockading a civilian population, denying them adequate access to water, power, etc. is no less an act of terrorism than anything done by Hamas.
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Two things wrong with this..
1> It does not fit the definition of terrorism.. If you can find a definition of terrorism that fits this, please post it...
2> Egypt also blockades their border with Israel even STRICTER... Why aren't Hamas missiles falling on Eqypt??
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Killing hundreds of civilians in response to the launching of what amount to glorified firecrackers, no matter how sanctimonious the pronouncements made by the better-armed party, is also terrorism.
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Again, you are wrong.. But, if you can provide me your definition of terrorism that says this, by all means, do so.. If you can show me I am wrong, I will gladly concede the point..
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Face facts Michale, Gaza is a concentration camp in everything but name, and if that ain't terrorism, NOTHING is
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Again, you are reacting emotionally, not logically..
If things are as you say, then Egypt is as guilty as Israel.. More so because GAZA was actually part of Egypt for the longest time...
Michale.....
Michale, you're a walking advertisement for the anti-war movement--you've lost your humanity, somehow, it seems. I hope it comes back (and I'm not being smug here).
Yes, he labels any action by Arab countries as 'terrorism," yet when we kill civilians he conveniently labels it as "collateral damage." Like so may on the right, he has two sets of morality, one for us and one for the "other."
Even if Israels actions towards Gaza do not meet the threshold of terrorism, and even if the actions of Hamas do constitute terrorism, the response of Israel to Hamas is still counterproductive.
You can say that 500+ Gazans deserved to die, that it is proper that they be starved and then bombed, but these actions Isolate Israel from her allies and strengthen Hamas inside Gaza and around the Arab world.
It would seem that Israel is only increasing the odds it will be a future victim of terrorism because Israel is making terrorism payoff for Hamas.
This is what true friends of Israel must be say out loud.
Man, are you crazy. You say that blockading a civilian populatin and denying them water is not terrorism. It is hard to argue with a guy who can define right and wrong to whatever suits him at the moment. If Muslims denied westerners water, you would be shouting terrorism at the top of your lungs.
CONT
Towhit, you have a missile control center that is housed in the basement of a school. School is in session and there are 500 children and staff present. A nuclear missile has been launched towards Los Angeles and the only way to stop the missile is to destroy the schoolhouse and the control center.
As the officer in charge, do you destroy the schoolhouse or allow the nuke to reach it's target??
Of course, many here will pooh-pooh the scenario and not want to answer. As military officers, we did not have that luxury.. :^)
My point is, who decides what punishment is to be accepted before action is taken, regardless of whether it's an orphanage or not?
Michale....
See Gordon Marino's Profile
Hmmmm. Let me think about that one. In the meantime a hypothetical for you.
A mad scientists is able and prepared to vaporize new york, la, chicago, and three small towns in south dakota. He won't do this if you as presdient order the torture five children. Would you torture the children. Or allow millions to die? Back to you later. G
I am assuming that you mean, me personally, has to torture the 5 children...
Have you read the book FAIL SAFE?
Remember what General Black did?
That's my answer.....
Michale.....
Tough question Mr. Marino. I don't know. The only thing I can tell you for sure is that Hamas seems to be playing the role of the mad scientist in your analogy.
in other words Israel, in all its' actions, is above reproach in all cases.
Who's basing his opinions on emotion here Michale...
I am not claiming that Israel is above reproach..
I am simply stating that by all moral, legal and ethical guidelines, Israel is justified..
There is no emotion in that assessment whatsoever..
Michale.....
Couldn't we just call Superman. Michale, your scenarios are those of someone who watches too much television and does not read often enough.
@Gordon Marino
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I think so. They believe they are not targetting the civilians and therefore not terrorists but rather targetting Hamas military operations. We did the same with the A bombs in world war II. So long as you are not targetting civilians per se - so long as you would prefer that they not be killed - you are ok- I think that is how the reasoning goes. Thanks. Gordon
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Forgive me for bringing this post to the top.. It's nearly impossible to make a proper point in an area the size of a postage stamp... :D
Anyways, you are exactly right..
The logic in this is that it SHOULD dissuade combatants from using schools and orphanages as military areas, because doing so affords them no protection. That's the theory. Of course, the actual practice is trickier, due to the PR concerns..
And I understand your point that Israel SHOULD take SOME punishment before resorting to destroying an orphanage that is a weapons storage area...
As I alluded to, this was a scenario in our Ethics class at OCS..
CONT
Michale, we did not try to even fool ourselved doing WW11 that we were attacking military installtions with our atomic bombs. We knew we were just bombing civilian populations. In a battle for hearts and minds in these insurgency types of operations, Israel and the U.S. should refrain from bombing a civilian school or apartment bulding even if there are weapons there.
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