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"We Won't Take That History Lightly"
LONDON--Yes, that pesky "history" thing rears its ugly head, this time in a quote from General David "Surge" Petraeus in today's Washington Post. It's neat that he should pause to remember history at this juncture, after he's helped perpetuate an Iraqi adventure that completely ignored the history of the British Empire in the same part of the world in the 1920s.
Sure, the Iraqis held an election last week that was quiet and orderly, if setting new records for low voter turnout. We have taught them a rudiment of American democracy. Now all we need to do is send over some lobbyists and our job will be done.
Meanwhile, the thrust of the Post story is on the "dire" assessment of President Obama's national security team of the Afghanistan situation. The report suggests a new, perhaps convincing, reason why the Bush team chose to redirect its attentions to Iraq in 2003. Quoting the new super-envoy, Richard Holbrooke:
"It's going to be a long, difficult struggle. . . . In my view, it's going to be much tougher than Iraq."
Maybe the veer Iraqward was just a matter of trying to choose the easy war.
History, that mad teacher, has a sense of humor.
The "grim" assessment may be welcome news. Obama's pledge to surge in Afghanistan was an understandable campaign thrust against the recklessness of leaving the job there undone, but seven years have passed, the Taliban has regenerated, Pakistan has degenerated. They weren't sitting around quietly waiting for America to rediscover them. History may not look kindly on our attempt to reopen a window -- the opportunity for an outside force to remake Afghanistan - -that appears to have closed. General Petraeus has read enough to remember that area as "the graveyard of empires." One deja vu adventure per decade is enough.
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Want to know why Afgaes and Pakies are falling apart? Americian Policy! Recomend you crank up the Bill Moyer" Journal for 30 Jan. 2009. The book will explain it all. From Alexander the Great to present day."PESHAW' THEY RULE THE HILLS! As Lt. Col. James Hackworth said "THERE IS ONLY ONE PLACE IN THE WORLD WORSE THAN KOREA TO FIGHT A WAR" AFGANISTAN! Only the Afgans win there!
Afghanistan cannot be secured with military power.
Afghanistan is 1.5 times larger than California. Like California, many people living there have guns. How many soldiers would be needed to secure a California that might not want to be occupied? One, two million?
Our active Army now is 500,000, slightly larger than the number of military we put in just one country, Vietnam, during our Southeast Asia Festivities. Where are the soldiers needed to secure Afghanistan/Iraq going to come from?
Securing Iraq with 160,000 troops was a myth too. Iraq is 4 times larger than Virginia. Troops must sleep, so how many shooters are awake at any time---80,000, 90,000?---to secure an area four times larger than VA? All shooters awake would fit in Redskin Stadium.
These follies are sustained by fables hyped from glib-look-pretty-on-TV military leadership. Current military leaders are the most formally-educated senior officers we've ever fielded. But they may also be the most politically bent miltary leadership in our history. Their politicization has been a cause behind the inept planning, execution of these unwinnable wars. Our military leadership needs purged. It has become too politicized, too dangerously ineffective. Their oath of allegiance was to the Constitution (The People), not a political party, religious sect, or politroid in DC whose tenure is temporary.
Also, religious mass movements cannot be put down by military force. (See: Nature of Mass Movements, Eric Hoffer, 1951). That is almost Counter-Insurgency 101.
More civilian purges of the Pentagon then?
If Israel has anything to teach us it is that fighting your neighbors/enemies is the best way to make your own country unlivable in. Department of defense is a misnomer; it's a department of offense. Moses suggested "though shalt not kill"; Israelis didn't learn the lesson; hence Israel is a miserable place to live in, constantly having to look over ones shoulder. It's going to happen here, I predict.
The best solution is to leave the country give whatever the Northern Alliance needs and let the war lords hammer it out with the Taliban and the best faction wins.
If we truly wanted to pick the easy war we would have jumped on board with Israel against Hamas in Gaza. What could be easier. Lock people into a narrow strip of land then bomb the sh*t out of them. Oh wait we did, we send arms and aid to Israel.
I think we should just withdraw completely from the middle east, and let the occupants of that area iron out their own dynamics. We have enough problems right here at home.
If I remember my recent history correctly, Gen.Petraeus wrote an op-ed endorsing Bush for reelection.
Oh yeah, like I'm gonna trust THIS guy's judgement.
What a hoot! A comedian talking about someone who has studied history all of his adult life as if that person learned nothing. You might all remember that we are not in Afghanistan to establish or enlarge an empire. If America is an empire-building nation, we're pretty poor at it, having kept no nation against the will of its people. We gave back Cuba, Philippines, France, Germany, Japan, etc., all of which we conquered, albeit in the name of freedom. We are attempting to do the same in Afghanistan.
As for the vote in Iraq, the turnout was only slightly smaller than the U.S. elections. I'd say that's not bad, given the very real threats of violence against the voters, candidates, and government!!
Semper fi
So the relevant questions now are: Who are we fighting? Why? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucrr/20090207/cm_ucrr/whyareweinafghanistan;_ylt=AozlYkQ44OC8_Fx4eMGE2yP9wxIF
We're fighting the Taliban and AlQaeda. If there are people we are not fighting, its due to political considerations between the US and Afghan governments. I don't like those considerations, but they don't ask my opinion.
Semper fi
Sioux, Cheyenne, Cherokee, Navajo, Iriquois,...
Not empire-builders. Not keeping a nation against the will of its people. Who's forgetting history?
Afghanistan may be another of those stitched-together countries that make no sense to the people who live in them, like Iraq. It looks like there ought to be a "Pashtun-istan" that would encompass the related people who live in northeast Afghanistan and northwest Pakistan. That's not likely to happen (unless Pakistan also falls apart), but it adds another wrinkle to getting these people to pull together when they want to pull apart.
A big show of force (i.e. hundreds of thousands of troops and a rebuilding program) when we originally went into Afghanistan might have worked. People repeatedly say they turned to the Taliban because they were the only ones who could bring a semblance of order to the country. It may be too late for armies and military victories. We may have to pull out and send in spy-types to hunt for Al-Qaeda leaders to protect ourselves from future attacks. It would be illegal but when has that ever stopped us? I just don't think we're capable of making it work.
The "grim" concern over the morass in Afghanistan is certainly justiied. I spent 3 years there in the mid-70s just beore things fell apart. The fragmented character of that never centrally governed land seems hard for Americans, at all levels, to understand. "Governance " has something of a medieval, feudal nature. Sheiks and 'warlords' control their own patches. . . There seems a growing concensus that we can never surgein enough of our own troops to suppress the many talibans, So as a corollatry, the remedy seems to be for buillding up and training the Afghan army on a massive scale, something overlooked while pouring resources into puny Iraq. Now it may be too late. The picture in Afghan eyes may have turned into one against foreign invaders and occupiers. Consider that the cultural motivations and traditional loyalties of a large Afghan army may be hard to predict and control, especially if it looks like fighting for infidel foreigners against co-religionists. . . . Dealing with local power holders and talking with various "tal;iban" groups may hold the best hope for leaving Afghanistan in a shape least dangerous to the West, isolating the al-Qaida remnants in the process.
You all would do well to travel further back into history to Alexander the Great who warned, "Stay out of Afghanistan." His country as well as ours should have heeded the warning spoken during "The Great Game" between Russia and the British Empire and the perceived Russian expansion into India over -- what else-- the Kyber Pass.
Access to information is the most effective tool against the extremeist who kling to these outdated notions that are grounded in some religious ideology. Those who beleive they truly know what it's all about and when it's going to end will be counterbalanced by technology. Instead of dropping explosives, we should be dropping IPODS to the entire MUSLIM world. "The mind once expanded to a larger concept can never return to its original form". In south central LA parlance, "Once a M----r F----r's seen color television, you can't take him back to black and white." Let's start using the mind instead of the military to address conflict resolution. Can't we all just....... Let's go baby!
You have a point.
There are only two ways to war in Afghanistan ,1) Either we cut our looses and with draw, 2) Or We start killing indiscrimantly and create the fear in the hearts of Afghans and the Muslim world, which is the ONLY language Muslims understand, (example Gaza recently) I bet you US and allied forces can be there for another 50 years nothing is going to change except loosing more US and allied men , It is shame the West don't know how to deal with Muslims / Islam. www.thereligionofpeace.com
www.faithfedom.org
This has nothing to do with knowing how to deal with "muslims and islam". This whole adventure or rather misadventure should be a added as a new chapter to barbara tuchman's book "the march of folly".
Your racism against Muslims is very, very ugly...
The U.S. and Israel have created anger and revenge in the hearts of the Muslim world for dropping bombs on innocent women and children , destroying their homes and schools,with high-tech weapons. "Religion of peace " what religion ARE you ?
Do not speak of faith and peace.
Thank you, Harry. I completely agree.
Bush allowed Osama to get away with it, and the prudent gambler knows when to walk away from the table, especially when his chips represent people's lives. Bin Laden is not worth one more life lost or dollar spent. I don't believe Obama (apparently a student of history) is foolish enough to get bogged down in that hell-hole. I pray I'm right.
Obama has said all along that he wants to increase troop levels in Afghanistan.
If the talibani s the problem and all of their power and money come from growing of the plants to make illegal drugs such as heroin why not kill the plants
Yeah, let's use some of those incredibly successful tactics from the War on Drugs in the War on Terror. In fact, let's spray them with Agent Orange!
Because wealthy Americans derive much of their income from illegal drug sales around the world? Naw! Where do you think that money goes--down the drain? Consider WHO had the growing of HEMP banned in America? Any lights going on?
See Harry Shearer's Profile
And what do you do with the farmers whose living depended on growing them?
Why not just buy up the whole crop? Buy it directly from the farmers, and it'd only cost a couple billion dollars, while it'd still put a spike in the Taliban's eye, depriving them of that income.
Over the long term, introduce a program that pays them to NOT grow opium poppies based initially on how much they were growing this year, but simultaneously introducing price supports for crops that will benefit them, such as wheat, barley, rice ... soybeans (??) and shift them over to price supports based on the crops they grow instead of growing opium poppies.
We're in deep trouble in Afghanistan. The sad truth is the window of opportunity to win hearts and minds closed abruptly March 20, 2003.
There is no longer a military solution in Afghanistan. We're going to have to find a political solution.
David Patraeus is more an academic (has his doctorate) and politician than he is soldier. You can bet the rent that Patraeus will end up as Army Chief of Staff and eventually Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff. This guy married the daughter of the West Point Superintendent at the time.
Did you see the part where he turned around Iraq over the last two years? Most people thought it couldn't be done.
Do you really think he turned Iraq around? The goverment is backed by Iran ,hello.
And the fact that you think he "turned around Iraq" is disturbing. The only two reasons why Iraq calmed down since the surge started are
1) We started paying those who were attacking, as a bribe to STOP them from attacking.
2) The neighborhoods are now MUCH more homogeneous, whereas before the invasion you had Sunnis living next door to Shiites and Kurds, now you have whole neighborhoods (walled off, often, from each other) that have ONLY Sunnis, or Shiites, or Kurds!
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