My first piece here at the Huffington Post listed some of the Mormon "pioneers" I would like to see march in the Pioneer Day Parade of my dreams. On that list were Dustin Lance Black, Oscar-winning screenwriter and gay rights activist, and Troy Williams, writer, radio-producer and all-round activist and agitator. While the two men have not yet been asked to participate in a parade commemorating the arrival of the Latter-day Saints in the Great Salt Lake Valley, they and several other prominent activists in Utah's queer community were invited to be special guests at a Christmas concert last December in the LDS Church's conference center.
Williams handed his cell phone to another concert-goer, who obligingly snapped a picture of the group, the beautiful pipes of the building's magnificent organ in the background.
Pictured, left to right, are Brandie Balken, executive director of Equality Utah; James Dabakis, co-founder of the Utah Pride Center and Equality Utah; Michelle Turpin, also co-founder of the Utah Pride Center and Equality Utah; Bruce Bastian, co-founder of WordPerfect; Black; Williams; and Trevor Southey, an artist who was formerly faculty at Brigham Young University.
Williams, who served a mission for the church in England, posted the photo on his Facebook page. In subsequent comments, he wrote:
We are (I hope) helping them to see the humanity of LGBT individuals (and in turn we also need to recognize the humanity of LDS members even when we fiercely disagree). We discussed the many ways their teachings and actions have damaged families. And we are exploring possible next steps. I really am extremely uncomfortable with Mormon theology, politics and the male bureaucracy. But that is all the more reason to walk right in, shake their hands and bare your big gay testimony. It's missionary work in reverse.
The photo soon made the rounds on gay blogs, where it aroused appreciation and gratitude (as well as some incredulity) at the Church's willingness to engage in discussion and outreach with the gay community, especially in the wake of the church's involvement with the passage of Proposition 8 in 2008 and Boyd K. Packer's homophobic remarks at the October 2010 General Conference.
I recently met with Williams and discussed the event with him. It was very much a step in the right direction, he said, and he had nothing but praise and admiration for the goodwill and integrity of the individuals he talked to before the concert.
But, he acknowledged, laying groundwork for cooperation and reconciliation is not the same as actually accomplishing the reconciliation. And we agreed that while it's remarkable and encouraging that the church is reaching out to the gay community, it's distressing and depressing that it has not made similar overtures to the feminist community.
Williams, who identified as feminist even before he came out of the closet as gay, advocates for full spectrum social justice, and argues that many social justice causes should be a greater priority for the queer community, noting, for instance, that "when feminists enjoy legislative victories, queers are elevated."
Mormon feminism is a complicated issue. The LDS church is one of the few branches of monotheism to believe in a female deity, though she's not discussed in Mormon theology because she's supposedly too "sacred" -- so sacred, in fact, that praying to her publicly or writing about her are grounds for excommunication. In the early days of the church, LDS women were not merely allowed but encouraged to perform blessings and healings. That encouragement is gone. The Relief Society, the church's organization for women, once enjoyed considerable autonomy, but is now thoroughly under the control of the male hierarchy.
Moreover, the church's thorough opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment is well documented -- and indeed, its involvement in that battle helped form its strategy for fighting gay marriage. Some of the most prominent excommunications in the past 20 years, including several of the "September Six," have involved feminist scholars, chastised for writing about Mormon women's lives and their ideas about their own spirituality.
In October 2010, I attended the Mormon Women's Forum Counterpoint Conference at the University of Utah. A speaker there told the audience that she had it on excellent authority (the provenance of which she was not able to divulge, unfortunately) that 80 percent of the young women in the church are leaving it, frustrated by the church's restrictive gender roles, as well as doctrines and practices that speak neither to the challenges they face as women nor their desires and goals.
Williams and I hoped that at a Christmas concert in the near future, the church will invite some of the feminists it has excommunicated -- Janice Allred, Lavina Fielding Anderson, Maxine Hanks, Paul and Margaret Toscano -- and, for good measure, Roseanne Barr as well, a Salt Lake City native whose career has involved critiquing Utah's gender roles. (I would also suggest that the church invite the president of the Utah Chapter of the National Organization for Women, but from what I can tell, no such chapter exists.)
It will probably be a long time before any such invitation is made. But at some point, the LDS church needs to listen to its feminist critics because they might be the only ones who can help it understand why young women by and large find the church so inhospitable and dispensable.
Follow Holly Welker on Twitter: www.twitter.com/hollywelker
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While pushing the "We're here and we're queer" agenda, maybe the LBGT community could take the time to realize that "Christians are there and their square" and leave it at that without forcing their sexual lifestyle on them.
And to think they want to pass laws that make that the only lifestyle that's allowed!
First --- the lds church, in my view, is rather paranoid about its public perception, which was once very good, is now mixed at best. To be blunt, the majority of good-hearted America thinks that Gays are getting a raw deal from many churches, but that women are doing closer to fine.
--- Thus you see, above, a photo of a minstel show of Gay sambos, trying to prove they fit in, put there by church leaders wanting to overcome the hateful image.
Second --- the lds hierarchy is concerned with getting and keeping members, and having traditions (and tithing) passed to the next generation. Gays are coming out, and shaking up the families, which are now less frequently kicking them to the curb.
GAYS ARE INVITED "FOR SHOW" AND FEMINISTS ARE NOT' -----
The old guys NEED to appear more accepting of Gays, due to the PR crisis (and potential membership crisis), but they do not want to admit, nor handle, the problems of women.
The machine knows it has to do something different, publicly, and fast about their APPARENT treatment of Gays
--- while they continue the everyday oppression.
From reading all these threads:
expecting the kind of ground-breaking change that feminists and Gays need, especially by going in "baby steps" with inclusive meetings, etc.IS FOOLHARDY
Per Dr King: SPEAK OUT, SIT IN, MAKE THE ISSUES KNOWN, OR LOSE!
As an alternative scenario, maybe the 'old guys' had X number of tickets to distribute to community leaders, and from past occasions of meeting with the above concertgoers, thought it was an event that they might enjoy and find entertaining. ABC news reported that "the Church has met previously with both Black and Bastian,"in order "to get more information about gay issues." So its not like the names were drawn out of a gay celebrity hat.
From what I know from listening to podcasts with Bastien discussing his relationship with the church, he has no reason or need to try to prove he fits in and is not someone who would be 'put' anywhere by church leaders. I don't think any of the others would be there simply trying to 'fit in'. It was a choir concert--an event for the community, not a church service. Nor do I believe going to a free concert would keep any of these activists from speaking out against the church (should they feel a need to do so) in the future.
I still feel that the "activists" allowed themselves to be pawns of the PR machine at that event, however. SURFACE acceptance of Gays does not show any sign, at present, toward either accepting who God made them in full, nor certainly not any sign that the mormon funded anti-Gay rights stuff outside of Utah will end.
I appreciate Holly's intent as one of advocacy for women, yet the editorial evokes some misperceptions. Mormon feminism has thrived since LDS Church origins--in women's education, careers, public roles, birth control, political work, social activism, cultural identities, church participation, theology and leadership. While women may lack visible or apparent equality with men in Church administration and office, the potential and precedent for equality are there theologically and historically, plus organizationally and spiritually.
The normative Utahn is a Mormon working mom. While 30% to 60% of LDS women might become inactive or lapsed, I've seen no data suggesting 80%. Statistically, LDS women compare to non-LDS women in most ways -- education, career, working outside home, and number of children (one child more than the average, last I checked). Their church activity may also compare with other women's.
As for me, I'm not an activist; my relationship to the LDS religion is scholarly, and interfaith. It feels anachronistic to encounter myself on the web defined by an event, that itself was inaccurate, and happened 18 years ago. It didn't define my identity, which evolved far beyond, as did my relationship with the LDS Church, becoming positive, respectful, even deeply healing. I've found the LDS Church to be generous, sincere, and proactive in creating good relations with all members of the Utah community.
--Maxine Hanks (ed. Women and Authority: Re-Emerging Mormon Feminism)
---- are photographed right here in my reply --- NONE
EVERYTHING IS MONEY AND POWER --- NOTHING IS ABOUT GOD
--Maxine Hanks
As far as presidencies and prophets go, isn't this guy the #2 man? I have trouble hearing God in his voice, it seems a bit more like the Green Lady in Wizard of Oz, and he certainly makes clear that it is the FATHERS who are in charge of everyone's conduct.
Boyd K Packer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zZ5YYfuSZQ
A DIFFERENT APPROACH might be to raise a cry for the entire membership to get out of the "persecution complex" mentality from 120+ years ago, and look to how they can make the actual world better. For instance, Haiti is failing, while mormon organizations cut down judges in Iowa. Mormon commenters on HP claim that any criticisms are unfair or hateful.
If the ENTIRE THRUST OF THE CHURCH is about defending its moral scheme as supposedly dictated by God (I remain sceptical), and adding members to gird its financial and physical loins, aiming to expand power in an offensive thrust really meant for security --- it is not about God, it is about fear and greed.
A CHURCH WHICH LOOKS MORE GENEROUSLY ON THE WORLD CAN LOOK MORE GENEROUSLY ON WOMEN AND GAYS, ETC
So, I politely suggest that you are aiming to put nice new shutters on a house that needs to be remodelled down to the studs and foundation.
It would be astounding. Imagine rank and file Mormons, under the direction of their prophet aggressively supporting a popular green energy movement? What if "sustainability" and "conservation" was the subject of Relief Society and Family Home Evening manuals? That would be huge! It could shift both the economic and political direction of the west in regards to the climate debate.
A longshot? What's the alternative? Maybe, it's worth the risk to try and inspire them to live up to the values they taught us as children. I think the potential benefits are worth the effort.
In so doing, there must be a huge feminist revival within the Church itself. I'd like to see that happen.
Nor can the truth of their terrible and unjust political activity overcome, to their membership, the lovely pleasantries of Otterson and other glib spokespeople.
SORRY, but you want to take Medusa to lunch, reason with Edi Amin, convince the relatives of Hamid Karzai to stop taking bribes, etc.....
THE ONLY THING THAT WILL HELP GAYS AND FEMINISTS FIGHT MORMON OPPRESSION AND TRICKERY IS SHAMING THE MEMBERS
--- while they can convince themselves that the church is really not doing bad stuff and intends to improve in these areas, they won't rock the boat, as the cost of boat rocking is VERY high in their communities.
Why are we concerned with the LDS church's continued existence, much less its appeal to those it oppresses? Do we have pipe dreams of a lesbian First Presidency? If people leave it for seeing it for what it is, so much the better.
The Church will never "reform" its views and even if it did the fundamental flaws are still in place in the form of redemption from a sinful human nature, suppression of will and individual thought and submission to authority.
The point isn't to slap the Brethren on the wrist and tell them to be more sensitive. The point is to do away with religion as an institution as fundamentally oppressive as racism, sexism, heterocentrism and xenophobia.
The fact that "religion" uses people's natural spiritual feelings against them is what distinguishes it from other abusive organizations, not the fact that it holds up beliefs that can't be disproven as axioms. Everyone does that, especially the people who claim that they don't.
If they admit what they've done and work to *fix* it, maybe that'd belp people think it's more than more image therapy so they can perpetrate more injustice.
Handsome spokesmen with charming accents.
Meanwhile, they helped get rid of the Iowa judges, more to come
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GXSHRJYxTQ&feature=related
Sincerely,
Thomas Monson
Grateful recipient of your donations
But then, if it were, you might not be Mormon anymore. Sort of like me.
Mormonism is famous for publicly denying what they privately teach. Joseph Smith began the tradition when he publicly denied practicing polygamy while privately marrying dozens of wives. When LDS critics published evidence of his plural marriages, Smith ordered the destruction of the printing press.
Today, Gays and Feminists are under attack from the church -- both members and non-members. But the LDS Church also targets intellectuals who don't support the party line and disagree with the "Brethren" on matters of science and history. Few religions are as inconsistent with science as Mormonism, which teaches that the ancient Americans were Hebrews, domesticated horses, and fought massive Roman-style wars with steel swords.
Duwayne Anderson
Author of "Farewell to Eden: Coming to terms with Mormonism and science"
Ex-Catholic feels great, and I suspect ex-Mormon feels good too.
Ex-Mormon for nearly 2 years.
The answer to both of these questions is a resounding NO. These positions are assigned by men, who control the organization. The relief society answers to the ward bishop (only men can be Mormon bishops) each week in ward council meeting, to make sure that the women are following the course exactly as outlined by yet another group of 15 old men in Salt Lake City, known as apostles.
Additionally, each woman in the Mormon church, who is married in a temple is placed under a coveneant to be submissive to a man. "You (women) covenant that you will hearken unto the council of your husband, as he hearkens unto the council of god. Bow your head and say 'Yes'."
At no point in the temple endowment ritual is the same expectation placed upon a man to hearken unto his wife's council. Therefore in Mormonism, a woman is always expected to be beneath a man's authority.
From outside of the LDS religion it may seem that men are controlling the women, but it is definitely not true. I am sure if you asked 99% of the active women of this Church they would disagree. The men have a responsibility that has been placed on them by God. It is what we believe, women are equal partners and have equal input. There is a saying in the LDS Church that states, find the most righteous women in your congregation and make her husband the Bishop. It is a comical thing that is said, but there is some truth to it. A successful family, and Ward cannot function without the women. In fact, I can promise that the LDS Church would crumble and fail if it were not for our faithful women. No one that is righteous seeks after power and prestige. There is no reason or need of jealousy due to position or calling. Go to mormon.org and watch some of the videos posted by female members of the Church. I promise they have not been brainwashed or forced to say what they say.
A relief society president is called of God. The Bishop spends numerous hours in prayer seeking who the Lord would have serve in this capacity. She is a member in good standing, full of love and compassion. Those who aspire to be one, clearly are not meant to be one, as humility is also a desired characteristic.
When a R.S. President is called, she seeks inspiration for who her counselors should be, and other leaders in the organization, and submits those names to the Bishop. The Bishop approves the names unless a)he knows of certain challenges in the life of those being considered that would be a burden on them to accept the call, b) knows if they are going through the repentance process, and saves face for them and c) wants to limit turnover in other auxiliaries (e.g. Young Women or Primary).
As for the "submissiveness", the Priesthood is set to serve, and greater burdens are placed on men than women. Please consider reading The Proclamation on The Family prior to posting half-truths. The condition is "as he hearkens unto the council of god".