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Posted: October 26, 2010 11:27 AM

Arianna appeared on "Charlie Rose" Monday evening to talk about "Third World America," the decline of the middle class, and what it all means for our future.

She explained that the middle class struggles of today have been in the making for thirty years, over both Republican and Democratic administrations. Because of both unavoidable problems, like the decline of manufacturing, and avoidable problems, like the lack of regulatory action and predatory mortgage lending, the middle class has not shared not shared in the major financial gains experienced by those at the top.

Arianna's appearance came on the same day that Tax.com's David Cay Johnston reported that average wages, median wages, and total wages have all declined -- except at the very top, where they leaped dramatically, increasing five-fold.

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Arianna appeared on "Charlie Rose" Monday evening to talk about "Third World America," the decline of the middle class, and what it all means for our future. She explained that the middle class strug...
Arianna appeared on "Charlie Rose" Monday evening to talk about "Third World America," the decline of the middle class, and what it all means for our future. She explained that the middle class strug...
 
 
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02:11 PM on 10/28/2010
It is and always has been about greed (which isn't always a bad thing). In the past, manufacturing stood at the heart of the growth of America's middle class. American companies, in order to expand at the highest possible rate (to get richer), found that to recruit and keep the best and brightest (or keep them from striking), they would have to provide ever improving pay and benefit packages. Those companies are still around but they no longer have to primarily rely on the American worker. Quite the contrary. For those same companies to compete on the world market while at the same time growing and expanding at the highest possible rate (getting richer), they must outsource their work to cheaper labor elsewhere. Can anybody here see any end to this tunnel?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
goodhelp
The non-conforming conformist you've heard about.
02:40 AM on 10/31/2010
See Lorianne's post below:
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Lorianne
ama vitam
10:59 PM on 10/26/2010
All this talk of recovery but no one ever asks: Recover what?

The economic system we had never made sense and was unsustainable no matter who was in charge politically.

An economy based on unsustainable levels of consumer spending, based on unsustainable levels of consumer debt, fed by unsustainable real estate valuation rise is ... NOT SUSTAINABLE.

The perpetual growth model we've had for the last 30-40 years is NOT SUSTAINABLE.

So, why are we trying to 'recover' ourselves back into an unsustainable economic system?
Why do both political parties and most of their adherents promote, a priori, that this is what we want to recover?
06:41 PM on 10/30/2010
Excellent point and one almost never recognized, much less discussed. Our country has been living well above its means for decades. The real estate market has been growing with a steady intensity completely out of line with the purchasing power of the average individual. Now that the vast majority of Americans need two people to pay for the costs of keeping a roof overhead and raising a family -- another completely overlooked symbol of our relative decline -- the spiraling growth of real estate prices are even more out of line with the real progress in both mean and average incomes. Who is it that is buying these houses?

Nobody forever. Their prices are unsustainable at the levels we have become accustomed to. They were never worth that much; only easy credit and the hyperinflation of real property prices for those already in the market made us think they were. The real value simply wasn't there because the real wealth of communities was no match for the price inflation of their housing. That's a bubble. Decades long, but its crash was inevitable.

And there is no reason to believe those prices will come back. The jobs that bought them by and large were not enough to afford them, those jobs are gone now, and there is no reason for them to come back now that outsourcing is a worldwide tide that cannot be turned back and manufacturing makes so much labor redundant anyway. You can't create widespread lasting wealth from
01:14 AM on 10/31/2010
...woops

...You can't create widespread lasting wealth from a diminishing job base, static if not declining income levels, and an out of control housing market bubble.
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10:58 PM on 10/26/2010
I watched the interview last night. All the participants were well-informed and concerned.

However, when Charlie Rose asked for solutions--ways to get people working and a productive economy--I didn't hear any solutions offered. There was mention of fixing the infrastructure--that's a great project--but not suggestions for how to do it.

More specifically, I was waiting for someone to suggest a WPA or CCC or some public works program. I wondered if the participants were concerned if they said it, they might receive a backlash of reactionaries screaming the "S" word--Socialism.
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Chopin
Multiply the truth. Speak truth through power.
07:50 AM on 10/27/2010
HenryDavid: "they might receive a backlash of reactionaries screaming the "S" worId--Socialism"

You might be doing some projection of your own concerns? The high-powered panelists were so caught up with their analyses phase, after halfhour, they had trouble making quick transition into snappy point format solutions that CharlieRose was expecting, in less than 10minutes remaining. At the beginning, Rose framed the discussion on disappearance of middleclass, what went wrong, and how to fix it. He didn't lead into discussion as "transformation of America". It was the format and emphasis that subconsciously limited the scope of prescribed solutions. If NoamChomsky was among the panelists, discussion might have steered in different direction.

Americans of 21st century aren't exposed to socialism because that concept had been systematically excluded from serious discussion for over half century, going back to before McCarthy era in 1950's. Almost everybody today has opinions about "same sex marriage" and half dozen hotbutton issues. But nobody under 60 feels comfortable with discussing socialism in any context. So, to begin serious national discussions on socialism and total transformation of America, people will have to start broadening the culture, changing the vocabulary, loosening the psyches to allow introspection. The relief from mental constipation today would be like women of last century throwing away the corset, and be able to breathe unrestricted. Then creative solutions would come pouring out.
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05:36 PM on 10/27/2010
Good point. The focus was on analysis, and that was probably the extent of the agenda as presented beforehand. Perhaps Charlie Rose just tossed in [as an offhanded question] about how to fix things. That deserves a program in itself. And yes, I may have projected what I wanted to hear about--how will we make serious moves to get out of this mess?

In the matter of economic system remedies, it's an important item you mentioned about "...changing the vocabulary..." Words like "socialism" have been demonized for so long that people may become incensed about it, and they don't even know why. I'm reminded of the war pep rallies in "1984". The post-WWII U.S. and its combination of TV and sophisticated propaganda certainly served controlling interests. The "Red scare" propaganda films were pretty effective.

Personally, I don't believe any of the "isms" work by themselves. They probably served as rallying points for one group or another. And, I don't believe our 2-party political system works either. I imagine a new economic system and third political party come down to the matter of a new social contract--some black and white quid pro quo in terms of the individual's relationship to the state (country).
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ylobrkrd
outoutdamnspot
01:15 AM on 10/31/2010
There is a much more tender subject than socialism..banks and banks not lending money to businesses. They have a unique stranglehold on progress and don't intend to "unstrangle" until the republicans win their seats this November thereby showing how successful the right is at driving the economy. Obama's between a rock and hard place. Raise the interest rate so the banks will let loose but of course there is no guarantee and the public will eviscerate him.
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11:42 AM on 10/31/2010
"Obama's between a rock and hard place."

Yes, and Obama stepped into their trap with compliance from Congress by providing the bailout money which was supposed to be lent to businesses. I remember Sen. Dodd speaking right after he and his oversight committee gave the bailout money to the banks. He said, "The banks indicated/promised they would loan it to businesses." That's the best he and his committee could do? That's pitiful at best, very corrupt at worst. European governments made the banks they bailed out commit in writing to lending bailout money to businesses. Here in the U.S., Dodd and others in congress were/are owned by the banks.

We should never have trusted them to do the right thing...they took the money and ran and made a quick $50 billion for their bonuses and other wishes.
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Chopin
Multiply the truth. Speak truth through power.
09:02 PM on 10/26/2010
Representation without taxation for the super rich.
Taxation without representation for everybody else.

It's not a pseudo "teaparty" mimicking Boston teaparty of 1773 America needs. In 2012, Americans need a new Social Democratic Party to represent everybody that had fallen out of the "middle class". That would include about 300 million Americans.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
AmericanDream RIP
99% Moderated
08:08 PM on 10/26/2010
How will we HEAL the country and our shattered ideals? Will we ever trust the government, business or each other again? I'm not so sure I can..... this Great Depression #2 has been devastating financially and personally. It's been a few years of misery already and I'm still waiting for the "other shoe to drop".... the hits just keep coming. I fear for my children.
06:58 PM on 10/30/2010
Trust is overrated. It tends to keep us from asking for results, and checking to see if we got them.
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goodhelp
The non-conforming conformist you've heard about.
02:51 AM on 10/31/2010
To heal this country we must first admit the level of tissue damage to the national "body." We need a Truth Commission such as convened in South Africa after apartheid was abolished. Americans would learn what ghastly deed have been done in our name since WW2.

Then we could take steps to build a more equitable and just America 2.0.
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Leviathan21
07:19 PM on 10/26/2010
Great line, Arianna - "Wall Street is not making things. They are making things up." Works on several levels.

Also: great piece of insight about the growth of private storage. I'd love to see research on how much it has grown over the last 20, 30, 40, years.
07:07 PM on 10/26/2010
It used to take say 100 man hours to make a car. Now it takes 50 hours. Same with steel, same with most industries. It's that simple.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
AmericanDream RIP
99% Moderated
08:31 PM on 10/26/2010
Perhaps if they went back to 100 man hours again there would be quality. American cars used to be well-built quality merchandise. Cut corners & costs, and there ya have it..... disposable cars that don't run well, don't last long, and consumers don't want.....

Give me a '70 VW any day...... at least I could fix it myself
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oldfuzz
...within my mind
06:59 PM on 10/26/2010
I watched the discussion and thought all participants were on target from their perspective. The problem I have with labels like "middle class" is that it is vague. If I remember correctly--and I may not--Ken Lay's wife referred to them as middle class during the Enron trial.

One thing that is very important, however, is that being middle class in income and possessions can come to a rapid halt when debt exceeds assets as has been found in the past few years.

The middle class grows from both economic opportunity and personal discipline.
06:48 PM on 10/26/2010
There will be no recovery without jobs and without a viable real estate market.
I do not see any ideas to fix either.
Tax breaks did not work under Bush and they cannot rob the poor and middle class as no money is left. Maybe they can steal the food stamps.
oilfield
small manufacturing business owner
09:57 PM on 10/26/2010
they will have to cut spending and ultimately fees and taxes both on the local and federal level....we need a fundamental shift from a large federal government to local government.
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StopThePlanet
Relentless pursuit of every silver lining's cloud
06:35 PM on 10/26/2010
How is the decline of manufacturing "unavoidable". Nobody makes us ship jobs overseas.
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Leviathan21
07:17 PM on 10/26/2010
No, but at some point you realize that another country can do it for a fraction of the cost that we can - which makes it cheaper for all of us. The reason why people with less income are able to afford things that they previously could not afford (electronics, consumers goods, etc) is because we can make things cheaply elsewhere.

So, rather than keeping jobs at home even when it no longer makes financial sense, we should be re-training workers so they can do other jobs. THAT'S where globalization has gone wrong. It's not that jobs were shipped overseas that's bad. It's the fact that the workers who lost their jobs were not re-trained to do other things.
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StopThePlanet
Relentless pursuit of every silver lining's cloud
07:45 PM on 10/26/2010
That is absurd. It costs us all money when we have to pay out unemployment, TARP and other cash outlays because people are out of work. Other countries are smart enough to have laws to prevent globalism from creating too unlevel a playing field. Keep drinking the Thomas Freidman kool aid.
07:49 PM on 10/26/2010
Nobody is willing to buy a $1,200 iPhone.

The only thing America *does* anymore is supply worker free services, like DirectTV...which have no real manufacturing costs at all and gives oh so much!...I'm stealing directly from a 30 Rock episode here, but its true. The Kim Kardashians of the world in fact should only be looked up as the new American worker class in that they provide content for the huddled masses.

Nobody really wants a Chevrolet anymore or even a fine American made wristwatch (why the hell not I ask?) and no one I know wants to bend to pick vegetables, but if you can manage to coach your cat to walk on its hind legs all the way across the kitchen floor, you might have a youtube hit and $.

Welcome to the new American dream.
08:27 AM on 10/27/2010
How is the decline of manufacturing "unavoidable". I absolutely agree. American corporations that have gone global have been shipping American manufacturing jobs overseas in the name of higher profits for several decades. The Federal government has ignored the problem, even though the trend continues and the eventual outcome clear based upon economic principles. We are deteriorating into a nation whose work force belongs to the service industry, with commensurate low-paying jobs. The NAFTA Treaty and the failure of our government to impose import duties on low priced goods from countries that do not abide by international trade and currency priciples have only amplified this problem. As desperately as we need manufacturing jobs, we are now being confronted by the real possibility of electing know-nothing politicians who want to cut spending on education and infrastructure that will drive us further into a hole. I'm afraid the American public has been so dumbed-down by incessant propaganda and catch phrases that have them believing backward is forward and these politicians represent the answer to our problems that we are beyond the point of recovery.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
goodhelp
The non-conforming conformist you've heard about.
03:07 AM on 10/31/2010
Agreed with one caveat. The Federal government is party to the disaster...laws on the books give huge tax advantages to those corps which outsource some or all of their production, sales, service, etc. Not to mention NAFTA and other such "fast track" treaties which gave us all the "SHAFTA!"
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06:21 PM on 10/26/2010
Many countries in Europe are in various states of rebellion right now!

The people have brought their disgust to the streets and aren't willing to take it any more.

So the question is--

Why haven't we seen this on our tv's or in our papers in more than a passing fashion?

Could it be that the powers that be here in our Media and on Wall Street just don't want us to know that there are people still willing to exercise "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances!"?
07:56 PM on 10/26/2010
It's because governments are in debt and they are asking their citizenry to give up things...like the 35 hour work week, and retiring at an age later than 62...similar issues to what are going on in the U.S. a la the tea party. The problem is that no matter where you go in the world is that people want entitlements and do not want to pay for them...so instead they call them something else, like "liberty" and couch them in the constitution.

The bottom line is that many nations are in fear of the rising power of debt that China now holds against developed nation...India is next on the table. We are only now seeing the balance of equality swinging in the world and the pendulum will swing far, so get ready for a ride.
BigDaddyWow
This member is licensed to spank
06:18 PM on 10/26/2010
Nice discussion. However, I believe that in matters of America, with the exception of natural disaster anything bad can be avoided. I mean, we are Americans. The problem is that "bad" for America usually equates to "good" for some powerful special interest. Our ability to adapt to the rapidly changing world economy as well as our ability to build small business in the US will be our salvation. There are some tough problems to address regarding special interests, Wallstreet and a completely dysfunctional government. However if we can get a little cooperation in congress after the election then maybe the recovery will start.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
AmericanDream RIP
99% Moderated
08:16 PM on 10/26/2010
Wall Street is cheering the upcoming stalemate that will be the next 2 years of the lame-duck Congress. Nothing positive will be achieved (for the People of America).
08:38 AM on 10/27/2010
I agree with you, but I think cooperation between the Parties is not possible. It takes two to tango, and the Republicans have shown that they will cooperate to the degree of pushing through as many amendments to legislation as they can in order to water it down, and then vote overwhelmingly against it. i thnk the window for passing meaningful legislation will close with this election.
oilfield
small manufacturing business owner
06:09 PM on 10/26/2010
rural america will be the winner in the future....to compete you have to go to rural america to manufacture because 10-15.00 an hour jobs are good jobs there. a lot of folks thumb their nose at those jobs because they arent union car plant jobs that pay a lot better, but if you can buy a house for 50k who cares....it is all relative and intake vs outgo. if you dont make as much and it is far cheaper to live than your city slicker counterparts, what does it matter. the government wants us all to make a million a year because that is the only way that it can survive feeding the beast. it puts us all on a treadmill to keep running until we pass out.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
omega777
Yellow cake is the Bomb
06:08 PM on 10/26/2010
The Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the the same coin who represent the corporations and not the people.

Heads they win tails we loose.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-biggest-bank-robbery-in-history-more-quantitative-easing-backdoor-bailouts-for-the-big-banks-without-having-to-go-through-congress
06:03 PM on 10/26/2010
I agree with the person who says there are no more people to rip off. Maybe they will just have to sell the subprime loans and credit cards to the developing nations. Will be hard as their governments tell them to buy gold.
The elite are obviously living in Mars or are being kept alive by the promise of a wall street rally. We are not being fooled any longer.