Vaccine Denial = Scientific Illiteracy

Last time I wrote about this subject, I made it too subtle. I thought that deliberately tagging both David Kirby and Jenny McCarthy, titling it "to David and Jenny, with Love", and then writing about how a woman's "mommy instinct" got her to kill an unarmed black man with no evidence of harm was a funny, but subtle way to point out that really, folks like David Kirby and Jenny McCarthy are just scientific illiterates, pointing fingers at whatever they can, even though thimerosal was removed from the childhood vaccination schedule in 2001 and rates of autism diagnosis have not slowed at all. This time, as you may have noticed, I have abandoned subtlety.

Here's the cusp of the matter. These guys scream, "You're giving mercury to my kids!!! ARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!" but when scientists stop giving vaccines with thimerosal to children, the anti-vaccination crowd goes "You're giving aluminum to my kids!!! AAARRRRRRRRRAAAARRRRRRRAGHHHH!!!!" And it doesn't matter that the aluminum is part of the chemistry that makes the vaccine work better, and it doesn't matter that their kid gets less aluminum from vaccines than they do from that hippy-dippy soy baby formula shit they put into their stomachs because Mommy's afraid of making cows cry. These guys will not be happy until the syringe is filled with water. Because for them, it will always be the fault of the vaccines. It doesn't matter what the science says, because these people don't care about science. Their argument is purely ideological, and does not belong in any discussion of scientific, medical, or political policy.

Let's take a hypothetical look at the anti-vaccination mindset. Imagine now that I live in Harlem for years, and am robbed multiple times, and every time I am I say, "It's the blacks." Now, most of my neighbors are black, it's not an entirely improbable thing that the people who are robbing me again and again are black, I'm probably saying that because I'm a racist, but you can't really be sure and I'm not necessarily wrong. So then I move to Greenpoint. And in Greenpoint, I am repeatedly robbed, day after day and every time I am, I say, "it's the Polish." Once again, most of my neighbors are Polish, so it's not entirely unreasonable to assume that when I am getting robbed multiple times every week, it's the Polish people around me that are doing it. So I move to Washington Heights, where I am robbed repeatedly and of course whenever I am, I tell people, "It's the Dominicans." But a pattern is starting to emerge and my friends point it out to me, and so I tell them "It's the minorities." And so eventually, when I move to Riverdale, surround myself with Orthodox Jews, and am repeatedly robbed day in and out, I tell people "It's the minorities." And it makes sense to me. And by sticking to these guns, I get to ignore the facts that my roommate is a crack addict and that in all my time living in New York City, I've never learned that I should lock my door.

There has been ONE doctor - ONE REAL DOCTOR - on their side. He was the guy who started it, Andrew Wakefield. And recently, it's been shown that he was full of shit. Kirby's last blog post took a crack at Brian Deer's article on Wakefield, but here's the thing. If Brian Deer is right on this thing in any way at all, then at the very least Wakefield is a crummy scientist, and given how little anything that Wakefield's done has been verified by anyone else, Brian Deer probably has his facts straight.

I don't think it's easy to be the parent of an autistic kid. Honestly, I have nothing against these parents. They're in an awful situation and I'm sorry for what happened to their kid. But to think that the solution is to boycott vaccines, to the point that we have horrible, brain altering diseases like Hib coming back, to the point where there's still fucking Polio in the world - if these anti-vaccine activists had been around fifty years ago, we'd still have Smallpox (it hadn't yet been fully taken out by 1960). Do you know how badly we got fucked by Smallpox? This shit was legendary. Incredibly infectious, 25-30 percent who got it died, the rest were scarred, often blinded, and disabled by it for the rest of their lives. Look up the history of this country during the revolutionary war, body-count given to the Brits is insignificant compared to how many of us were dying from a disease which today, we don't have to worry about, because of the advance of medicine.

Are vaccines harmless? Well, for most of us -- yes. There is a small (TINY) percentage of the population that can't have vaccines, immune-compromised kids, and a very small number of people for whom the vaccines will in fact have a detrimental effect. And by pushing forward their campaign to throw an ideological penny onto science's tracks, these parents and advocates are hurting those kids too. See, those kids... they can't have immunizations, and so the only thing keeping them from getting sick is that enough of their little friends have gotten those shots, making it statistically unlikely that the non-immunized kids will get these illnesses. Viruses don't thrive in a vacuum, it's called herd immunity, and without it those little kids - you know, the ones who's immune systems are screwed up and can't get the benefit of childhood vaccines - they'd probably be dead. In the UK, the original home of Wakefield and still a bigger part of the anti-vaccine movement than the states (don't worry! We can still catch up! USA! USA!), many of these childhood ailments are already making a comeback, and we have small spots in the states where it's happening too. Thank you, vaccine denialists, for saving our kids.

The science is in. Children are exposed to more new pathogens on a daily basis than the entirety of what they're given in their vaccination schedule, you get more formaldehyde into your body from the paint on your walls, and even if it was still in the childhood vaccination schedule (which it's not), the amount of mercury in thimerosal is orders of magnitude below what it would take to actually damage your brain. Vaccines do not cause autism. Measles, Mumps, and Rubella are not diseases we should let come back. Allowing these "green our vaccines" Evidence of Harm "Mercury Militia" people to have their pre-scientific crap pollute our public discourse is retarding our nation's health, and we can't stand for it anymore.

Comments

[bdul26]

I'll jump in here and say that I have a problem with vaccines altogether. We're bypassing the whole way that our immune system, over thousands and thousands of years, is programmed to work. It is not a natural thing for us to inject a disease (live or not, with toxins or alone) into our muscles. Typically, we would contract diseases through our eyes, nose or mouth. Can anyone explain to me why we think we are so smart that we can manipulate the human immune system like this and not have something go awry?

[nicole473]

These people need to focus their attention on their kids, and on a real cause for autism, but I don't think they will unless McCarthy does. They are too much like lemmings.

Great article!

[abitcrunchy]

Did it ever occur to anyone that all this can be settled by showing all of us those kids with autism who were never vaccinated. Or maybe show us a list of SIDS babies who were not vaccinated? Or maybe if you could produce a study that isn't designed with the outcome in mind. Or maybe if you stop lying about the mercury that is still in vaccines TODAY (still be manufactured with mercury TODAY). Or maybe it would help your case if only you could manage a few studies that are NOT done by those with financial ties to vaccine manufacturer's. OR - maybe, just maybe, if you do that non-vaccinated VS vaccinated side-by-side comparison...ending this debate seems so simple!

[pillgirl]

the vaccinated vs non vaccinated studies have been done. if you take a group of kids that were vaccinated, and the same number of non vaccinated kids, the same number in each group are autistic.

[bdul26]

Really? Can you tell me where to find these studies?

[Jokermanhere]

Mr. Dickerman's not being a member of the medical community is actually a plus and held out the possibility that he might know what he was talking about. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. And it wasn’t the case because Mr. Dickerman appears to be one of those people who think they stand for science if they uphold prevailing scientific consensus. Well, that might work most of the time in the real sciences, but medicine is not a science. It’s a profession. And it’s a profession that is unduly influenced by the pharmaceutical and insurance industries, as everyone must know by now. And that makes for bad science. So there’s no consensus science here, there’s only consensus poitics.

There's no such thing as a nontoxic amount of a toxin. Vaccines have toxic ingredients in toxic amounts, plain and simple.

There are plenty of board-certified physicians who think there is a link between autism and vaccines, as an internet search would show, and if Mr. Dickerman doesn’t even know that, why is he writing on this topic and why is anyone reading it?

[Maria Alvarellos]

"There's no such thing as a nontoxic amount of a toxin. Vaccines have toxic ingredients in toxic amounts, plain and simple."

Nope. When you eat an almond you release cyanide. Last I heard that was a toxin. In organic chemistry class we synthesized isoamyl acetate ie essential oil of banana which in high quantities is also toxic (to breathe). There are probably way more examples that I could look up but I won't. The point is that when they say that small doses are metabolized or do not harm the body, SOMETIMES it is true so it is not plain and simple. I've been immunized and I'm not sick so perhaps for someone that has a particularly condition additives in vaccines may be toxic but don't say that they are toxic for everyone.
Have you ever heard of PKU? It's where people cannot break down phenylalanine due to a genetic defect, they accumulate phenylalanine in their system and they become mentally retarded. In all likelihood something similar may be the case with autism and environment of which vaccines could be a factor in some cases.

[Principaldad]

Here is something for consideration.

The studies that have been done clearly do not back up those who are concerned about vaccines causing autism. However, maybe there are other factors a work. I see many possibilities, some more likely than others.

I have often wondered whether many children are born autistic but certain enviromental factors (allergies, heavy metals, or a thousand other factors) could exacerbate the symptoms. I am not talking about "triggering" the autism. I am talking about making it worse and, as a result, more noticable.

I don't have any reason to believe this other than simple observation and consideration of the anecdotal claims. However, it would seem to explain the lack of experimental evidence of a direct link while, at the same time, explaining many of the observations people have reported. It is merely an untested hypothesis, but one that I think would benefit from proper research.

[blueraven]

Sorry, Principaldad, but you're trying to make the post hoc, ergo propter hoc illogic of the anti-vaxxers make sense, and it still fails. The reason there are presumptions that something triggers or exacerbates autistic spectrum disorders is that the layman doesn't really notice the earmarks of the condition until the child is approaching their second year of life. The signs exist at one year of age to experts trained to look. Much before that age, a child's behavior is not developed enough to readily pick out "thinks differently" from "hasn't figured that pattern out yet." Systemic heavy metal body poisoning may or may not resemble spectrum behaviors in symptomology, but it is not universal to all children who display those behaviors by any stretch of the imagination.

[Principaldad]

I am fully aware of the concept that the layman often doesn't recognize the disorder until around the time of vaccination. In fact, I saw one study that studied early pre-diagnosis development in autistic children. That study found that there were often developmental abnormalities prior to the condition becoming clear (thereby negating an MMR link).

I am not trying to make sense of the babblings of the antivax crowd. I am also not laying blame on ANY specific environmental factor. Heavy metal was just an example and was not intended to show support for that concept. Also, I was not talking about heavy metal poisoning, but rather whether a substance could exacerbate pre-existing autistic symptoms (like alcohol has been known to exacerbate psoriasis).

In addition, this is not an argument about ALL cases of autism, or even a sizable percentage, just like alcohol does not exacerbate psoriasis in all cases.

What I am really doing is postulating about the reasons for the phenomenon of regression, which is described as follows:

"a small subset of children present a trajectory characterized by normal development followed by a loss of acquired skills or a failure to use the acquired skills."

This phenomenon does not agree with the traditional reasoning that a layman may not notice the autism. It describes a very noticeable decline in condition. It is reasonable to wonder whether there are environmental links to this phenomenon.

[maggiemom]

I had a professional versed with autism by ten years experience as a Speech path with kids under 5 wacthing my kid like ahawk! My sister is just that and he has two older cousins with autism. He was normal to her trained eye at Christmas- 10-15 words, good eye contact and appropriate interactions and great joint attention. After valentines day I called her because he was not speaking, not even making words, was more interested in switches than me and was staring at the ceiling fans for hours if I left them on. She looked at him and though she said to get him in early intervention , now.
You read stuff written by people who read stuff by people who have theories and long titles and lots of degrees but they don't always know everything.

(I myself nannied for 15 years and have 30 hours in child development-so I kinda would have seen it anyways.)

[RaisingAwareness]

There's many doctors, some of whom have seen thousands of children, who claim that they've yet to see autism in unvaccinated children. National average is about 1 in 150 or even much higher depending on the location.


Here are some of their stories:


http://uncensored.co.nz/2009/03/16/no-autism-in-unvaccinated-kids//

[Principaldad]

Again with the anecdotal "evidence". Interesting that I see the same 2-3 stories used over and over again. Never do I see the "many" other doctors who are claiming this.

Seriously, if all these doctors really exist and are correct, why doesn't one of them do a real study and publish it. Instead, I see Generation Rescue spending $200,000 on a poorly executed (and biased) phone survey that ended up casting doubt on their own claims. If these claims are serious, wouldn't that money be better spent funding research that will stand up under scrutiny?

[gotmine9]

I have two children with Autism Spectrum Disorder. My daughter was vaccinated, but on the 'safer' schedule, and she had signs of autism as early as 12 months old, when she was unvaccinated. My son has not been vaccinated, but he is diagnosed as moderate to severe autism.
I don't think that vaccine is a 'cause' of vaccines. I know that the disease of smallpox was horrid. But, I still refuse to vaccinate my son. To say that only one medical doctor thinks that vaccines are causal is dismissive of the hundreds of DAN doctors practicing successful treatment of autism.
Autism rates are still rising. My children have been helped so much by their doctor (medical doctor, who believes that vaccines are related to autism), my daughter has been diagnosed with a metabolic condition, and with changes in her diet, most of her autism symptoms have disappeared. My son has severe soy allergies (which caused him to have the rosiest of cheeks), he has a reaction to wheat and gluten, and dairy makes him stim and lose his ability to talk. Most (but not all) of his autism symptoms disappeared.
Something is causing autism. Those whackos are the ones on my side. Without thier help, my son would still be lying on the floor watching the wheels turn on his firetruck. Now he is riding on his firetruck, screaming with laughter. He uses it to put out imaginary fires, and rescue imaginary cats.

[Principaldad]

Good comment. It is great to hear stories of improvement.

Although I disagree with some of the methods of the "whackos", I do support their mission. Most of them are not snake oil salesmen, at least not intentionally. They are searching for answers to a baffling condition.

I would artue that if the therapies of the DAN protocol are valid then why not study them scientifically and see what about them works or doesn't work. See if it is a real effect, a placebo effect, or just wishful thinking. There are many people spending countless hours and untold dollars waging a war on vaccines. They are combatting proven scientific procedures armed with little more than fear and hearsay. I would love to see the efforts of these misguided individuals shifted to honestly and scientifically researching their own ideas. There may well be important improvements to be made. Then, all children will benefit, rather than just a few.

[Maxiesid]

Jacob's profile, for those interested in understanding the background of the poster:
"Jake is a former student of the Goldberg Department of Dramatic Writing at NYU. Now, he has an art degree which is thoroughly useless. You can see more of his unqualified and unpaid opinions at weeklyradi­o.blogspot­.org " Explain to me, Jacob, why anyone should give you any credibility at all on this subject. .
I will go so far as to say this, picking one piece of your pharma talking points to discuss. When you talk about 'herd immunity' I wonder if you understand what that means? When my herd of cattle calves for the spring, for example, I get maybe 20 calves. I immunize them and if I lose 5 of them to shock, infection, whatever - then I lose some of my investment, but the rest of my herd is safe, so it was an acceptable loss. Now when you equate that to humans... how many babies are an 'acceptable loss' in your eyes in order to provide this 'herd immunity'? Which parent gets to say, "Well, yes, our child was lost, but now all the others are safe?" Parents will do anything to protect their children, and if that means protecting them from people like you, they will do it.

[CraigWilloughby]

Excellent point!

My son, right this minute, is in the psychiatric ward at hospital because he was a danger to himself and others. He bit himself, drawing blood; he hit his older sister in the face; he drew bloody scratches all over his arms and legs. He's 7 years old.

His autism was caused by an encepalopathy that he developed within 6 hours of his MMR and DTaP vaccines when he was 18 months old. He lost all speech, and lost the ability to walk until he was almost 3. I got my son vaccinated for the greater good, and then we have people like Jacob and the rest of the Church of the Immaculate Vaccination demonizing me because I have proof that my son's condition was caused by a vaccination. My son was a sacrifice for the rest of the herd.

You're welcome everyone.

[Ergon]

I am so sorry to hear about your son. What saddens me the most is that parent's personal experience with DPT and other vaccines is always disregarded by scientific orthodoxy. All I can say is that only a parent can know their own child best, and I admire the courage of those who refuse to go with the 'herd'.
I hope you'll get your son back. Please consult with a homeopathic doctor, they really do have great experience with vaccinosis.

[Kippur Bird]

Just a thought:

Mercury and all those sorts of horrible toxic things were in vaccinations for many years. Including in your generation. In fact now they're less toxic than they were in the beginning. If this is so, and people were vaccinated for these diseases, how come everyone isn't autistic now? Since the toxins have been removed from the vaccinations and the autism rates have been going up, supposedly, then perhaps it's the lack of toxins that have made this so called epidemic of autism.

(Oh and I have Aspergers.)

[Principaldad]

Why should anyone give YOU any credibility at all on this subject, or anyone else for that matter? What matters is that Jacob's argument, although intense, is sound and based on authoritative science . If I have learned one thing from my years on the internet, its that "credentials" don't make an argument true.

The primary reason for vaccinating is to protect the person being vaccinated from greater risk. Herd immunity merely an added advantage that protects those who cannot vaccinate or are in the percentage who do not get immunity from the vaccine.

In your "example" you run a 25% loss. That is a ridiculous number that does not translate to the human vaccine debate (if it is even true for cattle). The mortality of human vaccines is miniscule. The fact is that, for the recommended childhood vaccines, in each case a specific child is much more likely to die from the possibility of contracting the disease than from receiving the vaccine (ditto for serious complications).

I have seen some who oppose vaccines claim it is like Russian roulette. They are right, but not in the way they think. Parents who refuse to immunize are taking chances with the lives of their own children, who are far more likely to die or be crippled by the disease than the vaccine.

[Jacob Dickerman - Huffpost Blogger]

My god. Your ad hominem attack has punctured a hole in my finely woven tapestry of logic. I concede to you, sir!

[CraigWilloughby]

Doesn't seem too difficult.

[Maxiesid]

I posted your profile, which YOU wrote. I asked a perfectly legitimate question based on your article. Where exactly did you see an attack? (by the way, ad hominem generally means 'a personal attack on a the person who proposed the argument in an attempt to discredit the argument." Can you point out where I attacked you personally in order to descredit your argument?

[CraigWilloughby]

And here you are throwing sarcastic comments about Maxie's ad hominem, when your post is riddled with them.

-sniff- Smell that? That's called hypocrisy.

[mateofstate]

Is your description of herd immunity some kind of April Fools joke, maxiesid?

Somebody lecturing another on herd immunity when they don't even know what it is? Hilarious!

[Maxiesid]

Really. So, what is your description since you obviously know so much more about it? Really, I am interested>.

[euthman]

OK, if you don't like Jacob's qualifications, try this out. I am a licensed, Board-certified, practicing physician with a degree in biology, and I agree with Jacob's article 100%.

I don't know why I'm wasting my time debating the True Believers here though. They will continue to cling to their myth no matter how long the negative evidence accumulates. The sad part is that all their time, energy, and money wasted on this vaccine nonsense could be devoted to finding the actual cause(s) of autism and developing effective treatments.

Ed Uthman, MD
Houston, TX, USA
http://web2airmail.net/uthman

[mydwyf]

Interesting that this author in his bio describes his opinions as 'unqualified and unpaid'.

[Ergon]

Given that no independent study has been made comparing vaccinated vs unvaccinated children, the following provides compelling evidence that vaccines are implicated in Autism.
http://www.rense.com/general85/cant.htm
"I have not seen autism with the Amish," said Dr. Frank Noonan, a family practitioner in Lancaster County, Pa., who has treated thousands of Amish for a quarter-century. "You'll find all the other stuff, but we don't find the autism. We're right in the heart of Amish country and seeing none, and that's just the way it is."
"In Chicago, Homefirst Medical Services treats thousands of never-vaccinated children whose parents received exemptions through Illinois' relatively permissive immunization policy. Homefirst's medical director, Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, told us he is not aware of any cases of autism in never-vaccinated children; the national rate is 1 in 175, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "We have a fairly large practice," Eisenstein told us. "We have about 30,000 or 35,000 children that we've taken care of over the years, and I don't think we have a single case of autism in children delivered by us who never received vaccines. "We do have enough of a sample," Eisenstein said. "The numbers are too large to not see it. We would absolutely know. We're all family doctors. If I have a child with autism come in, there's no communication. It's frightening. You can't touch them. It's not something that anyone would miss."

[Vickster]

The Amish also raise their own food and don't use modern conveniences (including electricity) so other factors may have played a role in their lack of autism, assuming Dr. Noonan's claim is true.

[jhamm1]

Indeed.

FOr as we all no, autistic cases need to be medically diagnosed. And as we also know, nobody consults psychologists on a regular basis like the Amish do.

[Principaldad]

This link cites the report of a journalist, Dan Olmstead, who claimed that very few Amish vaccinate (stating less than 1%) and that they almost never have autism. He based this on interviews in and around Lancaster, PA. All of the information he received was anecdotal and non-specific (and largely incorrect). Using that he tried to make his claim, even insinuating that there is NO autism among the Amish. The problem is that his interviews contradict other, more authoritative sources. This is why Olmstead's type of "research" is useless.

In fact, many Amish do vaccinate, by one estimate as many as 70% in the area that Olmstead "studied". Some doctors also indicate that there is autism evident in the population, although Olmstead still disputes that. First he claimed that there is almost no autism at all. Then when a clinic that treats autism among the Amish surfaced he changed his story and claimed that it was only unexplained autism that doesn't occur. Of course, he has no proof of this other than his own inverviews (which have already been shown to be unreliable).

So we have the opinion of the CDC which is based on scientific investigation up against the opinion of a journalist whose claims are based on anecdotal evidence that has been shown to be unreliable.

[trrll]

Generation Rescue did a survey in which they compared the incidence of autism in vaccinated and unvaccinated children. They found that the incidence of autistic spectrum disorders was not significantly different in vaccinated and unvaccinated boys, while the incidence was substantially *higher* in unvaccinated girls than in vaccinated girls.

An analysis, as well as a link to a spreadsheet of the actual results, may be found here:
http://autismnaturalvariation.blogspot.com/2007/09/simple-selection-bias-model-explains.html

[Gatogorra]

When I was making student films at NYU, I don't remember the drama department focusing much on science and immunology.

Facts, please. Some vaccines had the full complement of thimerosal as late as 2006. Currently, a two year old receiving the full, recommended schedule gets about 71 micrograms of mercury.

As for this statement on smallpox "...body-count given to the Brits is insignificant compared to how many of us were dying from a disease which today, we don't have to worry about, because of the advance of medicine". No one's being vaccinated for small pox these days. Know why? Virtually no risk. So you're trading up 1/38 British male infants for your fear of smallpox? Find another disease plaguing modern industrialized countries at that rate, please. Otherwise, the risk-benefit ratio of continuing the current system unreviewed -- in terms of the risk of "modern diseases" maiming children at the rate that autism and other vaccine-induced autoimmune diseases do-- would justify running a red light and mowing down pedestrians in a crosswalk because of the risk that the guy behind you isn't going to stop.

Trade up your own kids for your disease-mongering fears. Vaccines need to be cleaned up, safety analyses need to be performed to identify the at-risk-of­-vaccine-i­njury population and that never-done vaxed/never vaxed study needs to be, at last, done. That's all Kirby and McCarthy have asked for, plus compensation for the children already injured. What radicals.

[Dyson]

1 in 38? I heard it was 1 in 15, and all of it due to MMR.

Seriously though, just how much of autism do you think is caused by vaccines? All of it? One case in 100? Give us a number so we can do a proper risk assesment, if you wish to be accurate

[zizyphus]

In other news, flu vaccines contaminated with live avian flu virus:
"The company that released contaminated flu virus material from a plant in Austria confirmed Friday that the experimental product contained live H5N1 avian flu viruses.

And an official of the World Health Organization’s European operation said the body is closely monitoring the investigation into the events that took place at Baxter International’s research facility in Orth-Donau, Austria."

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html

[Dyson]

No, it was not a "vaccine" that was contaminated at all.

If you were paying attention, you will see that live virus (flu H3N2) material for laboratory use only was also contaminated with flu H5N1. This was an error and potentially might have led to the viruses undergoing some form of genetic recombination, altering virulence or altering transmissability.

....In other news, antivaccinationists misrepresent and misinterpret science stuff that is unrelated to vaccines in order to make vaccines look bad..... What's new in that?

[maggiemom]

And that wasn't a danger?

[slvrfox857]

My only question may or may not be considered scientific by the author's standard...I am not a scientist, but do love the subject.I don't claim to know much of anything about this subject. But I have read some studies about the lack of autism in the Amish community. What would you say that this means? The authors of the studies believe it supports (not proves!) the theory of vaccines being part of the problem. Amish children do not take the required vaccines that other school aged children do. Again, I'm asking a question, not positing an answer.

[Principaldad]

I too have limited knowledge of this subject, although it is of great interest to me as well.

Also, I too have read the claims that Amish children do not vaccinate. However, I have also crosschecked and seen claims that the Amish DO in fact vaccinate, although at a lower rate. In Lancaster County, PA, for example, the report is that the Amish have a 70% vaccination rate. There are also indications that autism does exist in the Amish community.

By the way, most of the information I have found on both sides of this issue is anecdotal and certainly does not rise to the level of scientific study. One such "study" I read appears to be by a journalist, Dan Olmstead, who interviewed Amish people and doctors in Lancaster, PA and concluded that there was virtually no autism there. In the same "study" he claimed that a minority of Amish families vaccinate in that area, a direct contradiction of statements by health care professionals in that area. That he supposedly found no cases of autism also contradicts statements from medical professionals in the area.

It is also important to remember that the Amish are genetically isolated from the general population and live vastly different lifestyles than the general population. There could be hundreds of environmental and genetic vectors at work that add or subtract from the incidence of autism in the Amish population.

[Dyson]

Well said that man.
But perhaps you realise that for many of the posters here it "always has to be the vaccines", despite reams of evidence to the contrary.
Tomorow they could crack the genetic mystery of autism, a vast epidemiological study could be published by totally unbiased/i­ndependent researchers showing no link between vaccines and autism, and people would still squeal "It's the vaccines!"

[Rrhain]

That's an urban myth. The Amish do vaccinate (though not as commonly as the non-Amish) and their autism rates are not lower.

[Pyrum]

That doesn't negate the fact autism is much more common in vaccinated individuals. In unvaccinated ones, autism is almost unheard of.

[Gatogorra]

The rate of autism among the Amish is less than 1/10,000 in the largest settlements. This varies between communities but the rates are astronomically lower than the current general rate. The government was so "interested" in this phenomenon that it funded a clinic in Pennsylvania that appears to be bent on vaccinating as many Amish children as possible. Consequently, these extraordinarily low rates may change somewhat over time.

Of the known cases of autism among the Amish, one was one or more unvaccinated children who had marked mercury toxicity from another source, a few were adopted and previously vaccinated, others were vaccinated when they were taken to emergency rooms for infant illnesses. The Amish have cooperated with the "safer vaccines" movement, sending in accounts and material. Amish leaders also broke with tradition to offer the CDC a chance to study why the Amish have so little autism, but the U.S. government has refused to accept the offer.

Homefirst clinic, a large series of family care clinics which also provides obstetrics and prenatal care, has offered its database of 30,000 or more never-vaccinated children to the government to be studied as well. This is because Homefirst has never seen a single case of autism among children cared for by the clinic from prenatal-t­hrough-chi­ldhood. Yet again, the government has refused to respond to this offer.

Read Dan Olmsted's articles on autism and the Amish at http://www.ageofautism.com; search archives for "Age of Autism" series.

[LeftRight]

Dan Olmstead has already been debunked. Read a few comments above yours if you wish to see it.

In the meantime, if you can come up with anything resembling actual science showing your assertions, I would LOVE to see it!

[maggiemom]

First, I am not a parent of an "autistic" I am the parent of a child with autism. I have a CHILD. A person .
I can't say vaccines caused this to happen inside him- only that his sudden regression happened right when he got some. I can say he is riddled with various metals at toxic levels.
I know that there is aluminum in Soy. I did have him on soy milk, but because the cows milk made him sick-not because I worry about cows! Now he is on rice milk. He is actually doing well because I have taken out almost anything that could put metals in to him and have worked very hard(as has he!) to clean him out. I have spent thousands of hours studying with my husband where all the metals came from. I know that all of it didn't come from vaccines,but I ask you to admit that some probably did!
I also know that diseases are dangerous and I will give him some more when he is older and stronger. I still vax my other kids- more slowly.
My point is that I am not an illiterate irrational mom relying on gut instincts. My husband is a biologist, sir.
Do you know any of these parents you ridicule, have you seen what they do- asked them how they know what they know? Spend some time watching their kids work, struggle and suffer and then have this smug attitude. I dare you to.

[Jacob Dickerman - Huffpost Blogger]

I appreciate you taking the time to read my article.

I'm sure your son is trying very hard, as I'm sure you are. I have nothing against either of you. I simply disagree that your son became autistic due to heavy metals.

There is no doubt in my mind that you have struggled and worked hard to help your son, and I don't believe for an instant that you should have had to. It's unfair that your son has this ailment, no question. My argument is that the science does not agree that heavy metals gave him his condition.

Once again, I thank you for taking the time to read and comment on my article, and I'm sorry you felt offended by it. I do not agree with you that heavy metals are the cause of autism. However, as a man who believes firmly in the scientific method and in scientific evidence, I am willing to be shown evidence against my stance. So far, the consensus scientific opinion has not produced that evidence.

I wish both you and your son the best.

Jacob Dickerman

[ZincAlloy]

Sorry someone "felt" offended by your article? That in itself is offensive. Maybe by calling whole groups of people "scientific illiterates" who "don't care about science" and have only "ideological" concerns and irrational fears, maybe by equating our concerns with this to racism and insisting that we're mindlessly hurting other people's kids will our hippy dippy ways, maybe stereotyping whole groups of people about whom you know nothing, distoring and simplifying arguments about which you show little knowledge or interest, and then claiming some kind of moral high ground because you accept the authority of "scientists" concerning studies which I'm willing to bet you've neither read nor are capable of reading in a scientific way, maybe that's just offensive.

[maggiemom]

thank you for your wishes.
I am not a scientist, I am a parent who was told my child was full of metals and that the symtoms of autism fit heavy metal poisins. I then worked very hard to eliminate them and he has improved. I just want those facts respected and researched.

[maggiemom]

I have thought about what you wrote here for another hour or so and after that I have a question for someone with a science background. Is it not true that you cannot prove a negative stance? Is it not true then that science cannot prove that autism is not caused by anything- it can only prove eventualy (please soon!) what does cause it?
And my last thought -You go over the many other places that children can get heavy metals, quite in depth in fact, yet you don't think that all those metals couldn't posoin some of the worlds kid's without strong immune systems to deal with it? Or perhaps in my anger over how you attacked this subject did I fail to say that I do believe that there was a problem with my son's immunity that was triggered by those metals? I do believe that even the heavy vaccine schedule used in this country is safe for most of the kids! However there are no safeguards to protect those who will not handle 6 immunizations in one day!(which is what my son got right before he regressed!) I know there is a genetic componant. and a enviromental componant. I just want them to figure it out so they can have an alternant vaccine schedule for children who need it, and that those children's parents won't be told that hey are going to bring about the fall of the USA for using it!

[kwombles]

So, you're saying that autism is equivalent with a lack of humanity? That's how you see the descriptor autistic? No one said you didn't have a child, a person. No one, certainly not the blogger, has been negative towards children with autism. You injected that hostility and negativity with your post.

I have three children with autism, three autistic children. What difference does it make where the descriptor is? It doesn't lessen their value, it doesn't make them any less children. It makes no sense to take your energy and direct it at this. Most of the anti-vaccination crowd is angry, furious, hostile, bitter. I'm saying this from my experience for the last 19 years as a parent to autistic children and as someone with a master's degree in psychology: that anger, that rage, doesn't help you or your child cope with the challenges of autism. I don't know the cause of your child's difficulties, and I don't know if these difficulties rise beyond autism but you have my empathy for your challenges, and your rage is one of your challenges you need to face.

[maggiemom]

I am not bitter and the point is he is a child FIRST. Autistic is no more a person than oriental is a person.

[Vickster]

I won't say I sympathize with your plight because that would assume that your autistic child is a lost cause who lacks the potential to contribute to our society. (Anyone who's read Temple Grandin's books knows this isn't true.) That said, it's my understanding that autistic children usually show the first signs of the condition when they are six to eight months, which coincides with when they get their third round of infant vaccinations.

[maggiemom]

My sister who was a speech path specializing in children under 5 was watching my son like a hawk for autistic regression because he has two older cousins who were already diagnosed. At christmas she saw no signs of anything - and he had regular developed speech and eye contact- joint attention. In early January he had 6 vaccines on one day. I called her two days after valentines day because he had lost words andwas displaying weird behaviors. He was 16 monthes in december of that year. So it he was past that 6-9 month bracket you describe.
That said I never said that he was a lost cause or that he had no potential people! I have read temple grandins book (and about 300 others) and my simple point was that I WANT HIS PERSONHOOD AND POTENTIAL SEEN FIRST. Jeeze, it is not just my stance it is a common wish and reccomended in educational settings that you always refference the child first and learning difference or condition second. I felt that the article treated the group of people with autism as a thing with no rights or potential and that was my whole point. My son is doing great an ofcourse I believe that he will accomplish many things and have much happiness. Sorry I brought it up.

[euthman]

There is so much faulty reasoning in your post that I wish I had the copyright to use it verbatim for teaching med students how _not_ to draw valid inferences from observations.

[maggiemom]

What inferences did I make that you disagree with? It is not inference that my son is/was in toxic metal overload-he had tests done. It is not inference that he is doing better- I have professionals to tell me so. it is not inference that vaccines have metals in them-the pharma companies themselves admit to that. read what I said again I never drew any conclusion- in fact I don't beleive the vaccines are the whole story! I do know that since my son is in metal overload he would in my opinion be in the "wait to vaccinate group" I n fact that would excuse him from required school age required vaexing in some states. Whether it was the vaccines in the first place doesn't matter it is still considered unsafe for him.
So please point out my inference because an inference requires I drew a conclusion and I didn't.

[trrll]

No peer-reviewed, published study using validated methods of measuring metal toxicity (and genuine metal toxicity is a well-known medical phenomenon, with well-established diagnostic tests) has substantiated toxic levels of metals in autistic children. None. Unfortunately, there are dishonest laboratories and quack doctors that are profiting by preying on the fears of autistic parents by producing "results" using fraudulent or invalid tests that purport to demonstrate metal poisoning in autistic children.

[Ergon]

Merck, the manufacturer of Gardasil, also manufactures Vioxx, which reliable estimtaes indicate took over 60,000 lives. Should we trust their 'studies', when many young girls have already died or been hospitalised with Guillaine Barre syndrome after taking the HPV vaccine? And some want to make vaccines compulsory?

[RachelMc]

"every year, about 12,000 women are diagnosed with cervical cancer and almost 4,000 women die from this disease in the U.S. About 1% of sexually active adults in the U.S. (or 1 million people) have visible genital warts at any point in time. "

"Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) has been reported after vaccination with Gardasil. GBS is a RARE disorder that causes muscle weakness. It occurs in 1-2 out of every 100,000 people in their teens. A number of infections can cause GBS. There has been no indication that Gardasil increases the rate of GBS in girls and women above the rate expected in the general population, whether or not they were vaccinated. "

As of December 31, 2008, there have been 32 U.S. reports of death among females who have received the vaccine. There was no common pattern to the deaths that would suggest that they were caused by the vaccine.

[RachelMc]

Oh this is all from the CDC website. U know the one thats based on actual reports, facts, data, and then analyzed....
so lets see 52 cases reported of deaths who MAY be related to the vaccine but has yet to be soundly proven out of 23 million ppl who were vacinated up to 2008

[Ergon]

http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=problems+%22vaccine+reaction%22+reporting&d=75624397822640&mkt=en-CA&setlang=en-US&w=2ba2dc1d,3a2745af indicates that possibly 1 in 10 adverse vaccine reactions are reported. Many parents have indicated that their Doctors did not stock the necessary VAERS forms, or adamantly refused to sign them. Strange.

[Dynamohum]

I say make vaccines MANDATORY and FEDERAL LAW. You don't immunize, you get deported wherever you want to go. If any of these fruitcakes starts an epidemic because of their irrational FEAR they should be charged with terrorism, genicide and treason.

[cheriemarie]

You're crazy. My family has served in this nations' military for decades to ensure freedom for us all. You can't take away freedom.

[RachelMc]

yes u can we do it every day to ppl who break the law.

[euthman]

The government can and regularly does take away freedom. The key is due process of law, and public health authorities have that on their side.

[maggiemom]

Guess what, we all had the vaccines and got the mumps anyways about 4 years ago!
They don't work as well as you have been told!
How dare yousay youare going to deport me and my kids for doing what is best for them!
If you are vaxed what risk is a person with the disease to you!
My son can't handle the vaccines! I still vax the rest of us -although more slowly.
What you propose is hateful and totalitarian!

[Principaldad]

Yes, Dynomohum's suggestion is totalitarian and ridiculous.

However, regarding your statements, there are no claims that vaccines are 100% effective. In fact, the mumps part of MMR is reported at 90% effective after two doses.

This highlights the risk of not vaccinating. Failure to vaccinate puts the general population at greater risk to a disease. If a disease is denied an adequate number of susceptible hosts, then the spread is halted and it dies out in an area. However, the disease can spread if there are sufficient number of unvaccinated individuals in an area, creating danger to those for whom the vaccine did not work (and those who could not take the vaccine for medical reasons, like your son).

Like Mr. Dickerson states in his blog, this is a real danger that these diseases may return as serious public health risks in the US. If that happens, innocent people will die because misinformed and poorly informed people want their "freedom".

If you were really working from informed opinion you would know this and not make statements like "If you are vaxed what risk is a person with the disease to you! "

[jeanruss]

Sorry, this is till America, where you can't be FORCED to take medicine regardless of the consequences. If vaccines work so well, why are afraid of those who choose not to participate? If you are correct, you have nothing to fear. If the law is changed and it becomes mandatory, my family and millions of other well-informed citizens WILL leave.

[Dyson]

Nothing to fear???
Some facts:

1. Some vaccinated people still remain at risk since vaccines are only about 90-95% effective.
2. Many children too young to be vaccinated get infections from others.
3. Many children have conditions that make vaccines contraindicated.

These people rely on the herd immunity from others for protection, and live in fear that someone who is unvaccinated will give them the infection. In babies and the immunocompromised, this will never be "minor", but is usually serious and often life-threatening.

[trrll]

Vaccines work so well, not because they are infallible on an individual basis, but because near-universal vaccine reduces the number of susceptible people so low that the disease is unable to spread. The corollary is that people who refuse to vaccinate endanger not only their own children, but everybody else's.

[euthman]

Actually, public health authorities do have the legal power to take measures to control infectious diseases, including quarantining affected individuals.