There are bad polls, and then there are bad interpretations of polls. Putting them together (i.e. a bad interpretation of a bad poll) can create a mess of misinformation, which is exactly what the New York Times gave us this morning.
Prominently featured on the op-ed page was a piece, "The Palestinians, Alone" by Efraim Karsh (an Israeli-born professor at King's College, London).
Here are Karsh's opening paragraphs:
"It has long been conventional wisdom that the resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a prerequisite to peace and stability in the Middle East. Since Arabs and Muslims are so passionate about the Palestine problem, this argument runs, the Israeli-Palestinian stalemate feeds regional anger and despair, gives a larger rationale to terrorist groups like Al Qaeda and to the insurgency in Iraq and obstructs the formation of a regional coalition that will help block Iran's quest for nuclear weapons."
"What, then, are we to make of a recent survey for the Al Arabiya television network finding that a staggering 71 percent of the Arabic respondents have no interest in the Palestinian-Israeli peace talks? "This is an alarming indicator," lamented Saleh Qallab, a columnist for the pan-Arab newspaper Al Sharq al Awsat. 'The Arabs, people and regimes alike, have always been as interested in the peace process, its developments and particulars, as they were committed to the Palestinian cause itself.'
Based on his reading of the al Arabiya "survey," Karsh goes on to build a case that the Arabs have indeed abandoned the Palestinians and that, "The sooner the Palestinians recognize that their cause is theirs alone, the sooner they are likely to make peace with the existence of the State of Israel and to understand the need for a negotiated settlement."
But Karsh is dead wrong. His problem begins with his abuse of a "bad poll" that was not a poll at all. In al Arabiya's defense, they never called it a poll and never vouched for its scientific accuracy. It was an "online vote" -- like those sponsored by news networks and websites worldwide in an effort to engage readers and viewers. That's hardly a poll, and certainly not deserving of either Qallab's lamenting or Karsh's gloating.
Karsh's next error was in not checking the survey language. The actual question makes no mention of "Palestine" or "Palestinians." Rather, it asks respondents about their level of interest in the "Middle East peace process" -- to which 71 percent indicate "no interest." Given the lack of results and the repeated disappointments and frustrations experienced during just the last two decades of the so-called "Middle East peace process," this lack of interest displayed by respondents in the al Arabiya website question is hardly surprising. But to go from this result to Qallab's alarming conclusion or Karsh's broader argument is both unwarranted and dangerously wrong.
In fact Arab public opinion remains riveted on the Palestinian question. In my forthcoming book Arab Voices: What They Are Saying to Us and Why It Matters I present results of recent polling we have conducted across the Arab world, making clear that the issue of Palestine and the rights of the Palestinians are priority concerns for Arabs from Morocco to the Arab Gulf States. While Arab opinion had great hopes in the ability and commitment of President Obama to help Palestinians realize their rights, widespread disappointment in the U.S. now exists across the region.
So are Arabs "fed up" and "not interested" in an on-again, off-again endless process? Yes. But no longer "passionate about Palestine"? Don't bet on it.
Worse than:
"there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves."
- Israeli Historian Benny Morris
http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htm
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist."
Moshe Dayan
??
Rape, murder, attacking peaceful villages, pushing out many thousands, it all justified ?
Somehow the popular film Exodus, which many of us grew up watching over and over, left all of this out, giving the Arab pov a weak 2-3 minutes.......most of us are sad at the terrible things of WW 2 but the reaction of the Zionists, even decent men like Pres. Truman, was also very bad and has given us generations of conflict and mountains of Lie's about it all....
Of course to find peace in the region we have to put most of this behind us, except when those kinds of policies are still more or less being used by the IDF and radical settlers. The region must be realistic. The US, I hope we get out, as we will be blamed by all and they all will want tons of our money that we simply can not afford. Please call Congress.
The power of America 's Orwellian World is clearly revealed when this World started to pretend 4 years ago that the war was over in Iraq by first pretending it never existed, WALLA!!! NO MORE WAR!!! WOW!! and that is real power when one considers the fact that Iraq has become the most violent, unstable country on earth and both Iraqis and Americans are still being slaughtered and maimed at a phenomenal rate; 538 people were killed in Iraq last month and the 3 war criminals; Cheney, Bush and Rumsfeld who caused this unending cycle of violence must be brought to justice.
In jest if any building had to go down on 9-11 it should have been the Fox building, with all the top brass caught in the highest floors......their Neo-Con pals either allowed some of that day to happen, for the New Pearl Harber they prayed for, or worse......look at some of the better youtube on this, if you have an open mind you will end up having at least 10-20 serious questions about the official story, and I do mean Story...
Daily, on Huffington Post, there are calls for the bombing of Iran for doing just that.
As it happens, Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Saudi accommodate around 3 million refugees. When you consider that these countries have a combined GDP less than that of the Netherlands, you get an idea of the scale of their contribution.
These refugees have a guaranteed right to return to their homes. I find it nauseating to read the denigration of the people who have supported and in some cases fought and died for them by supporters of those responsible for the original blatant and brutal act of expulsion.
They have no interest in seeing a liberal, educated and fairly democratic... (by Arab standards at least) Palestine. How would the monarchy in Jordan react to a democratic Palestine on its western border? How would Saudi Arabia react to a relatively secular Palestine? Understand?
The Arab world's support for the Palestinians has been almost zero. Some countries in the Arab world (yes, I'm generalizing a bit here, forgive me) don't allow Palestinians to get health-care like many of its own citizens. Their movements are restricted. They have limited civil rights and are generally treated as second class citizens at best even though, for many of them, the local country is the only country they've ever known!
The record of the other Arab countries helping the Palestinians is dismal at best. They are simply used as pawns. That's it.
I will double down on my bet that the Arab world will do nothing to materially help the Palestinians.
How did the rest of the world react? The Arab League quickly condemned "the criminal and terrorist acts carried out by the terrorist group known as Fatah al-Islam," and vowed to "give its full support to the efforts of the army and the Lebanese government." EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana also condemned Fatah al-Islam, and declared Europe's "support" for Lebanon. And the UN Security Council called the actions of Fatah al-Islam "an unacceptable attack" on Lebanon's sovereignty.
At this point, reread the first paragraph of this column -- but substitute the world "Israeli" for "Lebanese" in the first sentence. Let's imagine what the world's reaction would be if the ongoing siege were taking place in Gaza or the West Bank instead of the Nahr al Bared refugee camp in Tripoli, Lebanon.
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=96c43ca9-ec26-470a-adda-93476ff79799&k=26630#ixzz0vCxdt8D9
Similar policies of discrimination are prevalent in other Arab states. A 2004 Los Angeles Times report painted a grim picture of the life Palestinians are forced to endure among the Arab “brethren.” According to the report, Palestinians in Egypt suffer restrictions on employment, education, and owning property, and when Egypt announced in 2003 that it would grant nationality to children of Egyptian mothers married to foreigners, Palestinians were excluded. In Lebanon, meanwhile, nearly 400,000 Palestinians live in 12 “refugee camps,” where crime is rife and clashes between rival Palestinian factions are common. Palestinians cannot own property or get state health care. According to Tayseer Nasrallah, head of the Palestinian Refugee Rights Committee in the West Bank, Lebanon bans refugees from 72 areas of employment, including medicine and engineering. Syria, with a population of 18 million, is a strong verbal supporter of the Palestinian cause, but refuses citizenship to its 410,000 Palestinian refugees. Even in Jordan, where Palestinians comprise nearly 70% of the population, Palestinians complain that they are discriminated against in terms of employment.
But according to a survey conducted by the well-known Palestinian pollster, Dr. Khalil Shikaki, most Palestinians were less interested in being nationalist standard-bearers than in living fuller lives. This view resonates strongly with opinion samples gathered by the leading Arab television stations Al-Arabiya and Al Jazeera of Palestinians living in the various Arab states, the vast majority of whom very much want to become citizens in the their respective countries of residence.
This clearly seems to indicate that Palestinian national identity is something more jealously guarded by non-Palestinian Arabs rather than the Palestinians themselves.http://frontpagemag.com/2010/08/03/
James Zogby,
An excellent piece to correct the "mess of information" (not unexpected) from the biased, one-sided partisan New York Times.
If the content of the international satellite channels is also any indication of public interest around the world, the Arabs from Morocco to the Gulf states are not the only viewers "riveted" to news of the Palestinian people in their struggles for justice.
I can fully believe Zogby's assertions that they are still "passionate about palestine", while still believing that as the survey shows they have no interest in the "Middle East peace process"
The two can be mutually exclusive. I think Zogby is unwittingly proving the point that he is trying to refute.
James Zogby says it best. Not many still believe in the charade called "peace process" unless they are intending to shore up, buttress, entrench the brutal occupation so dear to the minds & hearts of the vested interests.
And why not? Whatever his faults (mostly unproven) he at least supported them. Many Americans sided with Pinochet.
"they were allies of the Soviets."
"A significant percentage of Pollard's documents, including some that described the techniques the American Navy used to track Soviet submarines around the world, was of practical importance only to the Soviet Union. One longtime C.I.A. officer who worked as a station chief in the Middle East said he understood that "certain elements in the Israeli military had used it" -- Pollard's material -- "to trade for people they wanted to get out," including Jewish scientists working in missile technology and on nuclear issues."
The New Yorker Magazine January 18, 1999, pp. 26-33 | SEYMOUR M. HERSH
"And of course they danced in the streets and celebrated 9/11"
Now exposed as a propaganda hoax:
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp
"A dysfunctional culture"
"The political leadership of Hamas is probably the most highly qualified in the world. Boasting more than 500 PhDs in its ranks, the majority are middle-class professionals - doctors, dentists, scientists and engineers. Most of its leadership have been educated in our universities and harbour no ideological hatred towards the West. It is a grievance-based movement, dedicated to addressing the injustice done to its people."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5420584.ece
THAT by itself raises some pretty terrible questions about our so-called "ally" of Israel....even the nasty Fox channel reported a large number of Mossad agents caught in the US after that day and quietly deported.....can we imagine what would have been done to them if Arabs, or anyone else....or the massive story this would have been in the MSM ?....I think even Fox waited until much later so that it was a tiny blip in the news....
I don't understand exactly why this would be considered the most desirable outcome. I've never heard of a nation (other than an island archipelago) which consisted of non-contiguous territories. Is there historical precedent for this as a workable national boundary?
Avi Schlaim: The Iron Wall provides some answers.
At the time, the question was not considered relevant. Nobody dreamed that Israel would act in defiance of the U.N., the UDHR and the Geneva accords. Prior to 1967 there was still hope of an overall settlement that would address the question of Palestinian Right of Return and the final status of Palestinian Palestine depended on the outcome of that. Jordan and Egypt have never sought to retain control of those territories except for a short period when Abdullah of Jordan conspired with Israel to control the West Bank in 1948. This was a strategic move during a War and opinions differ as to whether his motives were territorial or protective. Sorry I cannot be more comprehensive in such a short space.
The reason is that the Pals never wanted a state of their own until Israel defended themselves and got the land. the Pals were supposed to be included in Jordan, but they kicked them, and Arafat out of their country. No one seems to cry about that. The fact is, keeping the Pals as pawns suits the Arab world much better. Why are there still terrible conditions in Jordan and Lebanon for the Pals?
The Israelis have kept the peace with Egypt and Jordan with no problem. The pals continue, to this day, to attack Israel and call for its demise. Can't make peace with a "partner" like that.
Read more: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=116929#ixzz0vZQKhKmd
Allowing people who have lived in Lebanon for 62 years basic rights would show that Zogby and his followers that they actually care about the Palestinians. I think that the polls show that the Arab world is finally coming to the realization that they are not going to be able to destroy Israel. Hopefully they will also come to the realization that the war refugees and their descendants need to be settled in the lands of those who started and lost the wars, just like every other population of war refugees.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=116929#axzz0uEQfoWOz
How churlish to now find fault with them while exculpating those who deliberately caused them to flee.
I would suggest if the same thing happened South of the Rio Grande, America would take issue with those who caused the situation before awarding citizenship to all who fled.
Also, they fled to avoid the war their Arab brethren were waging, hoping to receive the house of a dead Israeli after the 5 triumphant Arab armies destroyed Israel. When you start and lose a war, sometimes you have to move on.
Even if you accept Karsh's numbers, and his take on them, that still means over 100 million Arabs do care about the Palestinians.
Not much interest in that on Zogby's part either