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James Zogby

James Zogby

Posted: August 28, 2010 09:54 AM

A few years back when Washington was preparing for the then highly touted Annapolis Peace Conference, I remember commenting that I was "hopeful, but not optimistic." As we approach the latest incarnation of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, I'm even finding it difficult to be hopeful, though I will continue to try to be supportive recognizing, as I do, the consequences of failure.

Convening these talks at this time is certainly a gutsy move for President Barack Obama. Knowing that the odds of success are slim and the costs of yet another let down are great, one can only hope that the President and his seasoned and accomplished team (including Secretary of State Clinton and Special Envoy Mitchell) have a trick or two up their sleeves, ready to play at the appropriate moment. But we've been down this road too many times, under far better circumstances, to easily give oneself over to the notion that this time surely will be different.

To begin with, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, while insisting that these talks occur without preconditions, has clearly defined enough conditions of his own (though being "too clever by half" by terming them "priorities"). His insistence, for example, that Palestinians recognize Israel as a "Jewish State," while viewed an innocent "no-brainer" to most Americans, is an especially loaded term for Arabs. Acceptance of this, unless carefully defined, permanently disenfranchises the 20% of Israel's population who are Palestinian Arabs. It is also intended to rule out any repatriation for Palestinian refugees whose "right to return to their homes" is considered an "existential threat to the Jewish State".

Netanyahu's further insistence on "security guarantees" is also seen as a logical requirement to many in the U.S., but his definition of security is overly broad including an Israeli presence in the Jordan Valley while placing severe limits on the independence of the future Palestinian state's ability to control both its territory and access and egress at its borders.

What is especially troubling is the failure of those who are most optimistic about these talks to recognize that the language they use and the framework they have embraced is so thoroughly tone deaf to Palestinian realities and concerns as to be "Pollyannaish," at best, or insulting, at worst. For example, they flippantly toss out terms like "land swaps," "settlement blocks," and "Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem" without any acknowledgment of what they mean to Palestinians or what consequences each has in predetermining realities on the ground. For example, "neighborhoods in Jerusalem" to most Americans sounds like an innocent enough term, but to Palestinians it means sprawling massive settlements like the one on Jabal Abul Ghnaim, which was built, over the strenuous objections of the Clinton Administration, on confiscated land in north Bethlehem. Likewise, maintaining "settlement blocks" and accepting "land swaps" means that Palestinians must recognize as a "fait accompli" prior theft of land to build settlements deep in their territory -- colonies that were designed and placed with the goal of making the establishment of a future Palestinian state more difficult. And their easy dismissal of the "right to return" (saying without hesitation or qualification that Palestinians would have to forgo this right and accept, at best, a return only to a future Palestinian state) also ignores what for many Palestinians is the sine qua non of any peace agreement.

Granted that many of these concepts emerged out of earlier Israeli-Palestinian negotiations (like the unofficial "Geneva Accords" -- which I supported), but these compromises resulted from hard fought negotiations and were reached under dramatically different circumstances. Back then, the unofficial negotiators sat as peers and each gave way in good faith. Now, these same compromises that were reached as part of a package deal are viewed merely as a starting point for Israel's insistence on yet further compromises. Add to that the fact that back then, conditions were different and the two sides, themselves, were different. There was no barrier/wall delineating unilaterally the de facto Israeli border. There were one hundred thousand less settlers in the West Bank. And there was no political division of the Palestinian polity and territories.

All this considered, I find it hard to be optimistic and, while wanting to be hopeful, that too requires a bit of a stretch. Nevertheless, here's what I hope for. I hope that Hamas, which has been critical of the talks, maintains its current restraint and does not engage in reckless and dangerous acts of violence (as it did during the 90's in an effort to sabotage talks). I hope that the Israeli government or its settler movement do not engage either in provocations of their own or act to reignite passions by starting new construction or imposing new hardships on the Palestinians. Should either side behave badly, I hope the U.S. is balanced in its application of pressure. And since it is the U.S. President who wants these talks and understands, and has stated, that success is in "the national security interests of the United States", I can only hope that he has prepared a well thought out "Plan B" should these talks ("Plan A") fail to break the impasse. And finally I might add that I can only hope that this Plan B involves new thinking taking into consideration the just requirements and the concerns not only of the Israelis but of the Palestinian side, as well. This U.S. initiative might not be pretty and most certainly won't be perfect, but it will have to be seen by majorities as fair. Even then it will be a heavy lift requiring the President to sell the necessary compromises to both sides, building a constituency for peace that can reshape the political landscape making an Israeli-Palestinian peace possible.

It may be a lot to hope for, but that's where we are.

 
 
 
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08:13 AM on 08/30/2010
[Part 3 and last. Continuation]

After such lachrymose comments and excuses, his last paragraph is kind of optimistic, but it also revels the Palestinians real hope from the negotiations: that someone else will do the job. They are unwilling co compromise. Unwilling to recognize Israel for what it is. Lacking the integrity to tell their people that they will have to give up some of their demands to gain others (that is what negotiations means) - they want an external solution, that someone else will make the hard decisions for them, and that they will be able to continue and feel victimized--and hold to their claim until the end of time--instead of taking responsibility and mature. This is how Palestinian leadership always was since the beginning of the conflict a century ago.
08:12 AM on 08/30/2010
[Part 2. Continuation]

3. Security guarantees - Despite common accusations on "land grab," the main reason for the 1967 occupation was security, and despite the fact that more issues, complicated issues, happened since then (the settlements), this is still the most urgent concern. A temporary, transitional arrangement was part of previous plans as well, such as the Geneva Accords (which the author says he supports...). This is something Israel wants to negotiate.

4. Terminology: The author is welcomed to suggest a neutral language, but he fails do do so. He also fails to see that for many Israelis (I am not included) calling these places "settlements" is choosing a narrative that undermines their legitimacy (in Hebrew it makes more sense than in English). That Gush Etzion, for example, was a Jewish owned land that was conquered--and its inhabitants massacred by the Jordanians--in 1948, and those who live there now cannot see why they shouldn't continue and do so and compensate the Palestinians in another land. If someone stole this land, it was not Israel, but the Palestinians. Also, the "right of return" is a Palestinian term, claiming a "right." used this way, without qualifications, adopts the Palestinian narrative. So the terminology argument works for both sides as well.

[to be continued]
08:12 AM on 08/30/2010
Some of the claims here are absurd to the point that I have to wonder weather the author is extremely misinformed about the conflict--not only for his position, but also for an six-year old child in Lapland--or deliberately misleading his readers. For example:

1. The "Israeli pre-conditions" argument: Well, saying what you want to achieve in the negotiations, and even presenting it as something you are not willing to compromise on, is not a "pre-condition" for starting to negotiate. This is simple English, not politics.

2. The "Jewish State" argument: recognizing Israel the way it defines itself, a Jewish state, indeed means the rejection of the return of the refugees. The same way the insistence on the return of the refugees means the rejection of Israel as a Jewish state and even more, transforming it into a Palestinian state, or to a sort of a non democratic regime. It is the "two states for one nation" solution. The Palestinians want to achieve one, the Israelis want to achieve the other, and this is what negotiations are for. In addition, recognizing Israel as a "Jewish state" does not mean it "disenfranchises the 20% of Israel's population." It simply mean they will be ab national/ethnic/religious minority, like there are minorities in most states in the world.

[to be continued]
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sherifdxb
09:42 AM on 08/30/2010
You've lost any sense of credibility and reason by likening someone as James Zoghby to a "six-year old child in Lapland". You could have gained a bit of respect by arguing intellligently against his reasoning. But you chose to be abusive in the first paragraph.
10:03 AM on 08/30/2010
No, I gave a second option, and i did argue against his claims.

Calling negotiations goals a "precondition" is not very convincing either.
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BcemXAHA
אני כלום בלעדיהם
01:50 PM on 08/29/2010
This is precisely the problem that Israel has been dealing with since 1948. These fanatical faction groups; as one becomes more civil, another ten erect with their own mentality, their own outlook and ideas.

What guarantee does Israel have that even if they make peace, that tomorrow another 20 new extremist factions wont be created that will continue to terrorize Israel, that will ignore the cease fire, that will use terrorist tactics to "express" themselves.

Very complicated situation.
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sherifdxb
09:47 AM on 08/30/2010
If there is one victim in this 60+ years of conflict, it is the Palestinians. We've seen how civilized Israel, the occuping power, has been in its ethnic cleansing, land theft and denial of rights of the people under occupation.
10:04 AM on 08/30/2010
Yes, the greatest losers and thus victims of this conflict are indeed the Palestinians, but they have mostly themselves to blame: first for being the aggressors, than for being failed ones.
04:43 AM on 08/31/2010
As an admitted Kahanist, I don't think that you're in a position to criticise the expression of fanatical extremists.
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BcemXAHA
אני כלום בלעדיהם
08:30 AM on 08/31/2010
If I'm a "Kahanist" than you are an admitted hamas member.
01:34 PM on 08/29/2010
The founder of the Electronic Intifada, Ali Abunimah, who makes no bones about how he wants Israel to disappear, writes an op-ed in the New York Times.

It remains amazing that the "newspaper of record" can deign to publish such absurdities as this:

The United States insists that Hamas meet strict preconditions before it can take part in negotiations: recognize Israel, renounce violence and abide by agreements previously signed between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, of which Hamas is not a member. These demands are unworkable. Why should Hamas or any Palestinian accept Israel’s political demands, like recognition, when Israel refuses to recognize basic Palestinian demands like the right of return for refugees?

So according to Abunimah, for Israel to ask its negotiating partners to not demand its violent destruction is "unworkable"?

Abinimeh also tries to make a tortured analogy with Northern Ireland, as if the Irish ever demanded that Great Britain be utterly destroyed as part of their negotiating position.

Apparently, Abunimah thinks that Israel should be thrilled if Hamas is willing to negotiate the terms of Israel's destruction. Maybe they'll even be willing to wait a decade or two! Isn't that moderate?
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harmlesstree
Préjudice est la raison des sots - Voltaire
03:54 AM on 08/30/2010
Ali Abunima wants Israel to be replaced by a binational Palestinian/Israeli state of its people, where Jews and Palestinians have equal rights under the law. Stop distorting reality! Your comment implies that he favors the ethnic cleansing, or destruction, of Israel's Jewish population, which is nonsense!
08:17 AM on 08/30/2010
That means that Israelis and Palestinians will have equal rights as individuals, but it also means that the Jews will have no national rights, and thus also denies their right for self determination.

I do not know if he means an ethnic cleansing or not (it is not nonsense at all, as the modern history of Jewry in Arab countries--and such one state will be an Arab country--clearly demonstrates), but it is definitely the denial of the Jewish people's right for their own state. Since this right is given to every other national group, it singles out the Jews as not worthy for self determination, and thus, antisemitic. .
02:20 AM on 08/29/2010
It is hard to remain hopeful when you read things like this:

Settler leader speaks of holding Netanyahu to his word on construction

Naftali Bennett, Netanyahu's former chief of staff and the recently named director-general of the settler advocacy group the Yesha Council, spoke to the Los Angeles Times about what he thinks his old boss will do and the challenges facing the settler movement.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-settlement-qa-20100829,0,1354446.story
Thelonius
Lived in Middle East for
10:35 PM on 08/28/2010
The Truth behind the “Peace Process”
A poisoned process holds little hope
08.25.2010 | Financial Times
By David Gardner
Full text: http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/the-truth-behind-the-peace-process/

EXCERPTS: "...the heart of the question remains the continuing Israeli occupation. It is essential to remember that the biggest single increase of Jewish settlers on Arab land – a 50 per cent rise – took place in 1992-96 under the governments of peace-makers Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres at the high-water mark of the Oslo peace accords."

"A decade on, the Israeli settlement enterprise has turned the occupied West Bank into a discontiguous scattering of cantons, walled in by a security barrier built on yet more annexed Arab land and criss-crossed by segregated Israeli roads linking the settlements. Last month, B’Tselem, the Israeli human rights group, published a study showing Israel has now taken 42 per cent of the West Bank, with 300,000 settlers there and another 200,000 in East Jerusalem. The siege of Gaza has turned that sliver of land into a vast, open-air prison."

"The outlines of a deal are clear, in the (Bill) Clinton parameters of 2000 and Arab Peace Initiative of 2002, endorsed by 22 Arab and 57 Muslim countries (as well as Hamas, as part of the 2007 Mecca accord). There has to be an end to the occupation, and the US and Quartet cannot just allude to this; they must demand it."
09:20 PM on 08/28/2010
Zogby is right, during early negotiations, there was no security barrier. Then, in an effort to pressure Israel to make more concessions, the Palestinians launched their genocidal suicide terrorist campaign in direct violation of the Oslo Treaties. During this ILLEGAL program, thousands of israelis were killed in discos, restaurants, buses, and in Synagogues. The people could see the murderous bad faith on the part of the Palestinians and simply gave up on a free flowing border between the West Bank and Israel so they built the security barrier which has successfully ended the Palestinian genocide.
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Freenation
08:08 AM on 08/29/2010
So Palestinians are conducting genocide against the country which has been proven by goldstone of war crimes...nice
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harmlesstree
Préjudice est la raison des sots - Voltaire
04:00 AM on 08/30/2010
How dare you compare Palestinian, the rightful owners of the land Israel is built upon... who have been brutalized for over 60 years, actions to genocide! The Palestinians have been unjustly forced to pay for European sins!
08:23 AM on 08/30/2010
Your anger is funny!

As Benny Morris nicely concluded his latest book on the 1948 war, the Palestinians suffered the most from the war, but that does not mean they were not the aggressors, and they had worst intentions towards the Jews, only they failed to fulfill them.

The Palestinians are no "rightful owners" of any land, they never held it as a collective. They are rightful owners as individuals of private land, and when they will have their state, as they should, they will have a Palestinian land as well.

The massive terror attack was not genocidal in my opinion, but it was vicious, barbaric and repulsing. Shame that some find it suitable to defend.
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BcemXAHA
אני כלום בלעדיהם
01:33 PM on 08/30/2010
Epic fail on historical facts.
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OneTop
Uh, is that a beer hall?
07:26 PM on 08/28/2010
One of the elephants in the room that no one seems inclined to address is Gaza. Perhaps I am missing something, but I haven't seen any comments about their inclusion.

President Mahmoud Abbas does not represent the people of Gaza and certainly has some legitimacy issues with the people he claims to represent.
Everyone knows this, yet it appears that Abbas alone has been "selected" by the U.S. et al to represent all Palestinians.

Should he ultimately sign an agreement, who would enforce it in Gaza ?

Setting all the Israeli pre-conditions etc. aside, I simply do not see how any legitimate agreement can be reached.
07:12 PM on 08/28/2010
When you live on stolen land and the legitimate owners are still around, no amount of security will ever seem enough.
08:24 AM on 08/30/2010
I don't think there is a need to warn the Palestinians about security issues from the Israelis.
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07:04 PM on 08/28/2010
It is easy to be cynical, but I try to be encouraged by the simple fact that both sides are talking to each other. There was a time when both sides preferred violence to peace talks.
05:35 PM on 08/28/2010
Unfortunately most lasting peace agreements are based on definitive conflict. Where one or both sides have incurred losses approaching or beyond acceptability. I am most certainly "hopeful" in the sense that you write, that Jews and Muslims and Muslims can sort things out without such a conflict.
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gibranII
seeking peace through equality
05:26 PM on 08/28/2010
when will the above nonsense stop... revisionist history wins in this debate...

an example is the myth of past peace talks.... would anyone accpet terms of aparthied in the guise of statehood? What country would have accepted no water rights, piseces of statehood not continously connected and no right of return? whose whole existence was in the hands of another country...even oneo fthe Israeli peacemakers said they wouldnt have accpeted the deal offered Arafat it would have been suicide...lets get real here.

a poster mocks the author stating that it is clearly about what Israel should give up..do you think they are not in control...to the victer went the spoils and responsibility.
08:33 AM on 08/30/2010
"piseces [sic] of statehood not continously [sic] connected" - Israel accepted in in 1948...

"no right of return" - this demand is not for a country to accept, it is the demand that another country needs to accept. It is the demand to destroy Israel as a Jewish state. It is the demand to create two states for one people. It will never happen.

"no water rights" - BS, this is part of the agreement in all its versions.
10:27 AM on 08/30/2010
Right, because only Jews, after thousands of years, have the Right of Return, where Palestinians after a few decades don't.

I'm sure you would have no problem with giving up your home because someone wanted your house and based their claim on the fact that their ancestor pi$$ed there 2000 years ago, right?
04:59 PM on 08/28/2010
I remember well seeing Netanyahu on American TV in the 80's when his book How the West Can Win was published. It was obvious to me then that everything he said in the book - as well as the title - was carefully designed propaganda. He's of course not the only entity to push such propaganda, but the end result is that it has worked. The propaganda effort has effectively made it impossible for anyone to even suggest that US foreign policy has anything to do with "why they hate us," or at least, if and when someone does suggest that, it is easy to dismiss them as being "sympathetic with terrorism," "legitimizing terrorism," etc. The propaganda effort has made it possible for Abe Foxman to call for "sensitivity" about the location of a Muslim center in NYC, while consistently displaying sub-zero sensitivity toward the plight of Palestinians (as if it is impossible for him and others like him to do the simple thought experiment: what if the Palestinians were Jewish/Israeli and the occupiers with the bulldozers, etc., were Muslims?).

I'm not optimistic. I think the plan of the Israeli right is to hold out for as long as possible, so that by the time they have no choice but to loosen their grip on Palestinians, their "liebensraum" - irony intended - will be as complete as they could ever have expected it to be.
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Vlady
Better Late
10:19 PM on 08/28/2010
"The propaganda effort has effectively made it impossible for anyone to even suggest"

Completely agree with you. Israel must be strong and maintain superiority of arms. This is the only potent guaranty of peace in the region
04:32 PM on 08/28/2010
This is so one sided that its laughable. And it demonstrates the difficulty of really getting anywhere constructive in this most complex situation.
Everything here is about what Israel should or should not do and how the United States better have some good trick up their sleeve.
Why is there nothing here about what Abu Mazen and the Palestinian Authority need to do for the possibility of a real breakthrough?
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lbsaltzman
Permaculture and Sustainability
08:11 PM on 08/28/2010
Perhaps that is because the Palestinians are the victims of over six decades of Israeli aggression. Perhaps it is also because the Palestinians don't have a partner for peace in the Israelis.
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BcemXAHA
אני כלום בלעדיהם
01:59 PM on 08/29/2010
Correction, the Israelis are victims of over six decades (make it more like 10) of Palestinian aggression.
08:35 AM on 08/30/2010
The Palestinians are the victims of over nine decades of their own aggression, their genocidal ideology, their unwillingness to compromise and co-exist, their immaturity in not taking responsibility for themselves.