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Jeff Schweitzer

Jeff Schweitzer

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Climate Change and Christian Values

Posted: 05/10/09 07:44 PM ET

Democratic leaders are initiating a media campaign targeting Christian radio stations to create support among Evangelicals for upcoming climate change legislation. While outreach is usually admirable, Democrats are barking up the wrong apple tree in this particular case.

We will not effectively address the issue of global warming if we appeal to religion. For millennia, Christianity has taught that humans are special in the eyes of the god and that the world is made for their benefit and use. This is made clear in Genesis 1:1, which states:

God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of god he created him; male and female he created them.

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."


Then Genesis 2:15 says:

Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

That mandate for man to use the land to his purpose is not exactly an environmental manifesto. These biblical passages give humans the special status of being made in god's image, unlike any other creature on earth, and clearly imply human dominance over all other living things. Humans are told to "subdue" the earth and "rule over" the air, land and sea. These religious teachings not only condone but actively encourage humans to view the environment as separate from them, put here for their pleasure. In this world view, no deep moral obligation exists to preserve resources for future generations.

The explicit religious mandate to exploit natural resources remains clear and unambiguous, in spite of recent efforts to harmonize religion and environmental sciences by numerous academic and international organizations, including The Forum on Religion and Ecology, the largest international multi-religious project of its kind, and the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, founded in 1936 by the Vatican to promote scientific progress compatible with the Church's teachings.

The argument used by those seeking reconciliation between religion and environmental protection points to the integrity of all creation, or reverence for all things created by god, insisting that religion and concern for the environment are not only compatible, but have been so all along. Those are welcomed sentiments. In fact, as is frequently the case, the Bible contains contradictory passages about the natural world, reasonably allowing for such an interpretation. Old passages can also simply be reinterpreted to fit the facts or to be compatible with newly adopted ideas. Pope John Paul XXIII said in 1961:

Genesis relates how God gave two commandments to our first parents: to transmit human life--'Increase and multiply'--and to bring nature into their service--'Fill the Earth, and subdue it.' These two commandments are complementary. Nothing is said in the second of these commandments about destroying nature. On the contrary, it must be brought into the services of human life.

But the harsh facts of human history belie this benign revisionist interpretation of the meaning of "subdue". The preponderance of unambiguous passages in the Bible giving mankind dominion over nature's bounty argues against any idea that religion is environmentalism in disguise. As Renaissance scholar Lynn White famously wrote in 1967, "We shall continue to have a worsening ecologic crisis until we reject the Christian axiom that nature has no reason for existence save to serve man."

His words remain true 40 years later, when religious conservatives in the United States view resource extraction as an inalienable right. For the past eight years our natural resources were under an accelerated threat from a torrent of new laws that encouraged mining on federal land, weakened protection for species, habitat and wetlands, encouraged deforestation, and promoted drilling for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. All with the enthusiastic support of the Evangelical community. Perhaps such enthusiasm comes with the idea that destruction of the environment will bring on the Apocalypse, a happy thought for those awaiting Rapture, but a bit less appealing to the rest of us.

Seeking support from Evangelicals for climate change legislation is a bit like asking Rush Limbaugh to campaign for Arlen Specter. The attempt is ill-advised. We should not be reframing the debate to make the issue tolerable to Evangelicals. That type of accommodation is the dangerous first step onto a slippery slope, and soon we'll be compromising on teaching Intelligent Design next to or in place of Darwin's "theory."

Have you ever wondered why the evidence to support Einstein's idea is never questioned by Evangelicals even though his seminal work is also "just a theory" on par with evolution? Because Relativity is not widely seen by the faithful to threaten religious beliefs (although in fact the case can be made that Einstein is a greater threat than Darwin). This dichotomy between the perceptions of Relativity and evolution reveals the real problem to be that only certain scientific issues have been selectively politicized by the right, with evolution and climate change serving as exhibits A and B.

Think for a moment on what basis someone would not "believe in" climate change. For somebody to take the position that climate change is not real, he must claim that he knows more about climatology than 2500 atmospheric scientists from 166 countries. The claim is absurd, and has absurd consequences. Somewhere along the line "belief" superseded "evidence." Once that happens, science loses all meaning, and for that society suffers.

If belief replaces evidence in public debate, why not make the claim that atoms, or DNA, or black holes, or any other scientific discovery is not real? Once you agree that evidence is subservient to belief, you dismiss the entire enterprise of science. How else could we explain on what basis climate change is seen as a liberal conspiracy but not electromagnetism? If we are not professional climatologists we can no more dismiss their conclusions than we could those of a physicist working on atomic fusion. We don't have the expertise in either field, and I don't hear anybody challenging our nuclear scientists. How odd that we only dispute the science that threatens to undermine our political or religious beliefs but accept all else with no hesitation.

No, rather than reframing the issue to satisfy a faith-based approach to science, we should insist that our schools refrain from 16th century teachings. Rather than bend in the face of ignorance, we should elect politicians capable of evaluating scientific evidence at face value. That does not require a Ph.D., only common sense, and the commitment to keep god out of the laboratory. The intrusion of religion into science is every bit as dangerous as its infiltration into politics. That we still debate evolution is proof enough. Any effort to dilute the arguments about global warming to appease religious sensibilities does nothing but corrupt the integrity of science in public debate. Faith and evidence do not share equal space in the sphere of science, and we would make a terrible mistake in giving faith a seat at the table of hard data.

Democrats need to push climate change legislation by making the most cogent, fact-based, scientifically-sound arguments possible given the evidence in hand. Any deviation from that course is irresponsible. If those who wish to pursue faith-based science are left behind, then so be it. If on the other hand we fail as a country and as a species to address a changing climate, then we deserve the consequences. Let the market of ideas choose the winners.

 
 
 

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Democratic leaders are initiating a media campaign targeting Christian radio stations to create support among Evangelicals for upcoming climate change legislation. While outreach is usually admirable...
Democratic leaders are initiating a media campaign targeting Christian radio stations to create support among Evangelicals for upcoming climate change legislation. While outreach is usually admirable...
 
 
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
mouselion
01:18 AM on 05/14/2009
One thing that the main posters to this thread seem to agree about is that it is the fundamental Christians that are narrow-minded and unable to accept science-based thinking and social justice/equality. How to win over fundies on anthropogenic climate change (or not) is the main issue here presented by Schweitzer's article. All the rest of this is just a battle over thin air which will never be resolved, because everyone comes from a unique perspective in regards to their personal beliefs. Accept each other - but don't accept social and environmental injustice and stubborn ignorance.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
mouselion
01:18 AM on 05/14/2009
This still seems to thread down to dualistic thinking. You're either this or that. Everything is black and white, not in color with different shades and hues. There are those who use religion as their reason for working for human rights and to end end suffering and there those who use religion as their reason working to take away rights and cause suffering.

Truth is, the Quaker activist or Jesuit monk who lives the life of poverty, works for the empowerment of the oppressed, seeks acceptance of gays and engages in environmental or peace activism sees these things as a much a natural expression of Christianity as the "right"-leaning fundies see their positions as the natural outgrowth of their theological viewpoint. If you can see this, then you can understand why Zanti feels affronted and unfairly characterized. His religious faith is central to his existence and wants people to view this a great positive.

On the other hand, JohnFromCensornati is in a position to feel he is part of a disenfranchised minority that is discriminated against. He sees the outspoken fundamentalists railing against him and he assumes this is what Christianity is all about. Who is going to want accept something that is fomenting hatred towards your very personhood?
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
07:23 AM on 05/14/2009
"He sees the outspoken fundamentalists railing against him and he assumes this is what Christianity is all about"

What I see is majorities voting against gay marriage and they do it because their ministers tell them to. I also see people like Zanti arguing that somehow these voters are a minority among xians. The numbers obviously tell a different story.
As long as all xians continue to revere that homophobic book as their source document, I don't feel the need to differentiate.
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12:33 PM on 05/14/2009
The number of different ways xians have of explaining their source document, range from "it's the absolute, infallible word of my god'', to "it's a nice book, but most of us don't take it too seriously". But, they all call themselves by the same name, claim to worship the same god, and cite what it says in that book (or some of the things it says) as the basis of their beliefs. To argue otherwise, you have to be extremely adept at splitting hairs.

Then, when the product of those beliefs are something xians don't like or agree with, they make excuses like:
Those people aren't REAL xians like me.
They're not following the TRUE teachings of Jesus.
MY xianity isn't any thing like that.
I'm a xian, but I'm more SPIRITUAL.

When you're a member of a large group that you have to constantly distance yourself from, what does that say about the group, and what does it say about you?
12:00 AM on 05/15/2009
"The numbers obviously tell a different story."

John, by all means, show us those numbers.

I keep asking for proof that Christians, as a group, are mainly conservative, and no one provides it. If you have it, let's see it.
03:58 PM on 05/13/2009
I can only ultimately point out to you, Jeff, what a professor once told me. It is easy to attack faith, it is easy to use logic and rational argument to attack religion. What is hard is to be tolerant of other's views, and to accept the fact that it is just mean spirited to attack the things that make other people more comfortable in their lives. I've tried to remember that in every debate I've had since.

You clearly have talent for communication. I wish you would consider the possibility of using that talent to help seek those areas where we are the same, rather than trying to exploit the areas where we are different. Clearly you have stimulated lots of discussion, which is good... it makes all of us think and attempt to communicate. But Is there a middle ground here that we can reach that gives us a foothold for moving forward?
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
05:01 PM on 05/13/2009
We tolerate believers just fine. We don't have any choice. They are the majority.
We don't respect their "views". Their "views" may very well make their lives more comfortable, but they make mine considerably more uncomfortable.
You see, there really isn't any middle ground with people who believe that I'm not gay, I'm a straight person that "sins", so when the religious stop meddling in my private affairs, I'll gladly cease my "mean spirited attacks" on their "views".
Don't hold your breath.
09:06 PM on 05/13/2009
John, I don't meddle in your private affairs. I believe in gay rights. I support gay marriage.

I do not consider gay people anything but part of nature's plan. What exists is part of nature. Nor do I consider gays anything less than fully equal citizens.

So, whose dang views are you talking about??
06:29 PM on 05/13/2009
By professor you mean "believer" I assume.

And there is a reason it is easy to criticize (or "ATTACK") faith. (Believers always use these hyperbole words. It reflects the victim mentality that goes along with the need to "believe" things in the first place. By inflating the situation it allows them to rest with a conclusion unfounded.)

Why is it, that when some one detects what they see as a flaw, they should be criticized as "exploiting areas where we are different?" (More defensive victim jargon?) Maybe they just see it is negative for society and are pointing it out.

The ground we need to move forward on may very well not be right in the middle. And the foothold we need should be on solid ground, not delusions.

You tell me, at what point do you choose to potentially hurt someones feelings to achieve clarity?
09:04 PM on 05/13/2009
Zofomofo,

It's not an attack anyone I'm accused of holding back gay rights, hurting science education, or stifling progress in general? Heck, yes, it is. I strongly suspect you'd take offense to even a fraction of those charges if they were directed at you.

So sorry if I don't simply fold up and admit responsibility for ills that I have absolutely nothing to do with. And especially when I'm on the same progressive page.
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Jeff Schweitzer
Scientist; Fmr. White House Senior Policy Analyst
01:17 PM on 05/13/2009
Zanti, the volume of faith-bashing has gotten insane? The only thing insane is that you think that in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Anytime fatih is criticized, it is hate, or bashing, or discrimination. But it is perfectly acceptable to attack those who do not share your beliefs. Christians dominate every aspect of life here; those who are not are in a small minority. Claiming victimhood when you are in the majority of 75% does not have any credibility. Being tired of faith bashing in a country totally dominated by faith is downright scary.
08:36 PM on 05/13/2009
For some reason, you elect to frame any objection to faith-bashing as an expression of victimhood. Because I'm part of a majority, that takes away my right to cry foul when my views and behavior are falsely characterized?

I don't attack people who don't share my beliefs. Please stop accusing me of that!

No, Christians don't "dominate every aspect of life" in a country that boasts separation of church and state. Frankly, I wish we had sep. of business and state--that way, maybe big polluters would be barred from writing our environmental laws, and maybe big co.'s would be forced to pay their dang income tax like everyone else has to. Separation of rich people and state would be grand, too--having mucho $$ wouldn't entitle someone to extra rights and advantages.

"Being tired of faith bashing in a country totally dominated by faith is downright scary."

It's all over our pop culture. Which is great, because it shows we're no dictatorship--and definitely no theocracy. On the other hand, I'm sick of the over-the-top tone--I fear for the sanity of anyone who thinks we're two steps away from a theocracy. The simple fact is that religion has been turned into a convenient (and false) metaphor for neo-con evil. I suspect that too many liberals are too close to the right wing in the degree to which they value power, money, and privilege.
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HeevenSteven
20 Minutes into the future.
06:07 PM on 05/12/2009
Hey this blogger here is dissing atheists; I can't figure out if If my disbelief should be offended.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kamran-pasha/why-mortimer-zuckerman-ha_b_201943.html
03:53 AM on 05/13/2009
Steven, I've spent my entire life listening to put-downs of faith, starting in my family. Neither parent was a believer. My sister's an atheist who thinks I'm Pat Robertson because her only concept of religion is burn-in-Hell. In the Navy, sailors who let it known that they were religious got ribbed for it--their manhood was questioned in fairly graphic and blunt terms, for instance. Luckily for me, I was faith-neutral at the time.

George Carlin was one of my favorite comedians. My parents thought Lenny Bruce was the ultimate cultural critic. So, come on--I'm no stranger to faith being questioned and criticized. If I woke up one day in a country in which people were okay with religion, I'd know I was dreaming or dead.

Most people of faith are where I'm at in that regard. It's just that the volume on faith-bashing has gotten insane. I'm tired of faith being scapegoated for our country's scientific illiteracy and the dangerous turn toward the right that started with our idiotic prez Ronnie Raygun. Problem is, it's hard to criticize the values and behavior of the right without indicting some of our own, no? Ah, but if we define faith as something separate from liberalism and reason, then we have the perfect carnival target. And there's no chance we'll hit ourselves in the process--not once we have a perfect "other" in place.

However, to paraphrase Jesus, we ARE that other.
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Jeff Schweitzer
Scientist; Fmr. White House Senior Policy Analyst
01:15 PM on 05/13/2009
Zanti, you and I must be living in different countries. Because here in the United States, all the put-downs are reserved for those who believe god is nothing but a myth no different than the tooth fairy. Here in the U.S.:

1) we will never elect an athiest president in my lifetime, and perhaps never
2) no national politician could get elected without professing a belief in god
3) my tax payer dollars go to putting up Christmas decorations in public spaces
4) my tax payer dollars go to pay police officers to direct traffice in and out of churches every Sunday
5) churches do not pay property taxes, so I have to pay more
6) we lost 8 critical years in stem cell research
7) we are still arguing about evolution, the only country in the Western world to do so
8) I still can't buy beer or alcohol on Sunday before noon -- so religion restricts my ability to buy a legal product when I want to - like the time my wife needed beer for a recipe for guests coming over Sunday afternoon
9) a woman's rigth to choose her own reproductive destiny remains threatened
10) we waste time talking about who can get married
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HeevenSteven
20 Minutes into the future.
01:57 PM on 05/13/2009
As you may remember from past discussions, I had the opposite experience; raised Catholic, and tortured by nuns for being left-handed. Our mother superior used to send us home crying because the communists were going to make slaves out of us and rock-and-roll was communist spawned mind control. Only Catholics can get into heaven; sort of like evangelicals with their left behind eschatological crap.

we know that you're not a one-tooth, snake-handling hick (not that there's anything wrong with that, lol), and that there are many stealth atheists in church. We probably agree more than we disagree. So now just to be fair, please give Kamran Pasha a hard time for blaming neocon philosophy on atheism. (I supplied link above)
05:02 PM on 05/12/2009
I understand your skepticism about the Christian community -- and it is true that many of them/us are bigoted, anti-science zealots, but this is more a reflection of political views gone awry than anything directly from the Bible.

A few things commanded in the Bible:

-- After a certain period of time, God commanded that land be returned to those who originally owned it. If this were followed today, the Native Americans would not be in the situation they are now.

--those who produce goods and services were commanded to set some aside for the poor.

--Nations that mistreated the poor were often judged harshly by God and even destroyed. See Sodom and Gomorrah.

Words such as "subdue" have different meanings in English than what they were translated from. It is necessary to study the original words to understand what God was really saying. From my studies, it appears that what he commanded was that man should cultivate and take care of the earth, not destroy it.

Even if you think that the Bible is ambiguous on environmental stewardship, then look what it says about taking care of the poor. Climate change is affecting the poorest countries inordinately more than the richer ones. As Johann Hari lamented on this very site, the country of Bangladesh stands in real danger of drowning, leaving 150+ million people to an uncertain fate. For Christians to ignore climate change is a very real affront to the God who created those people.
06:37 PM on 05/13/2009
Oh come on! Read the Bible. It is full of racsim, sexism, sadism etc. You are cherry picking those in the group you belong to and then cherry picking from the text you "Believe in."

Why not just admit you have your own opinion and you are not one of these undefineable "Christians."

Why must you drag that ancient book and cult around your neck like an albatrose?

It is you who have defined your own religion, not christians, Catholics or Jesus. Let it go.
09:27 PM on 05/13/2009
"Oh come on! Read the Bible. It is full of racsim, sexism, sadism etc. You are cherry picking those in the group you belong to and then cherry picking from the text you 'Believe in.'"

So, you'd have us obey to the letter an ancient text containing such attitudes and details? Wow.

Why?
04:15 PM on 05/12/2009
Thanks to all of you for helping out!
12:54 PM on 05/12/2009
Okay maybe all you religious experts can help me. Help! Our local newspaper has a Saturday column where local pastors present a full length article. As a scientist and a pantheist, I find some of them to be crazy. Therefor I feel compelled to respond to some of them. Last week a fellow from a Bible church directly blamed Hitler on atheism along with all the other ills of the world, stated that science claims that humans evolved from "monkeys" (it doesn't and they didn't), that science leads to situational ethics, claims that science makes people no more important than "mosquitoes", etc. How would you respond to him? I would really like to know.
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01:19 PM on 05/12/2009
It sounds like he got his talking points from the movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed".
This is too much to cover with the limited space allowed here.
There were many pod casts that covered these points well.
Do some Google-ing for good refutations.
I suggest these pod casts:
skepticality
the atheist experience
american freethought
the non prophets
point of inquiry
the skeptic's guide to the universe
Go to iTunes store. They are all free subscriptions.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
mouselion
01:28 PM on 05/12/2009
I don't consider myself to be even close to a religious expert, but here is how I'd respond:

- Hitler bolstered his hatred and the holocaust on the belief that the Jews killed the son of God -- as well as the strange view that Christ was a warrior:
___________
"Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude." One thing was for certain by his own words, that Hitler always spoke of "a God", in many of his speeches and writings.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_religion_did_Hitler_say_he_was_if_any
____________
11:32 AM on 05/12/2009
I'm an unabashed atheist who was raised with minimal religious training, but I disagree with your premise. You seem to be arguing that the Bible contains an inherently flawed approach to the natural world. I would agree, but then it doesn't really seem to matter what the Bible says--Christians do whatever they want to do. Sometimes--as with the campaign to teach the Christian creation myth as science--it's stupid and counterproductive. But sometimes--as with the social activism by nuns and priests in South America--it's extremely valuable. Christians were on both sides of the slavery debate, and there will be Christians on both sides of this debate. There's no point in dismissing a Christian argument for environmentalism, just because it's Christian.

As an outsider, it seems that what the Bible ACTUALLY says about dominion over animals and nature and such has very little bearing on what Christians do. There are Christians out there who are promoting an environmentally minded stewardship approach to their charge of "having dominion" over the earth. I know because my grandparents' pastor thinks this way, and they regularly send me his sermons. We should do everything we can to encourage this view. And I think that as environmentalists, we should NEVER shun an ally, no matter where they're coming from.
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12:36 PM on 05/12/2009
"it doesn't really seem to matter what the Bible says--Christians do whatever they want to do"

You make a very good point. Almost any position can be validated, using the bible. Christians have made an art of picking & choosing.

But most people who are listening to christian radio are more likely to be the fundamentalist evangelical type who believe a god will take care of things for them, if they pray hard enough. They are more concerned with an "after life" they BELIEVE in, than they are with the only life we KNOW we have.
Climate change, I'm afraid, is not a concern that will ever be high on their list ... until it's too late.

You're right, we should never shun an ally, no matter where they're coming from, but we need to spend effort where it will be the most effective.
Religious fundamentalism often breads ambivalence to the here and now.
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tailgateshirts
09:53 AM on 05/12/2009
"Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it."

So why cant that be turned into cultivating and keeping it healthy for future cultivation? Its as if there is an embargo on being able to spin their stuff another direction
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Jeff Schweitzer
Scientist; Fmr. White House Senior Policy Analyst
10:20 PM on 05/11/2009
Another common accusation I hear is that I lump all relgions together. Nonsense. I do not treat religion as if there were only one variety; I just look at the source document used by most of them. Either the bible is the word of god, or it is not. If so, then we need to go out and start sacrificing goats, stoning women to death and killing disobedient children. If not, if those passages are allegories rather than literal, then your interpretation of the bible is no more or less valid than mine -- making the book completely useless since opposing views can point to the same book to support those views. Why would my quote of Matthew 10:34 be an more or less valid than any passage you quote? Or Matthew 10:36, or Mark 7:9-10, or Dueteronomy 22:21 -- all of which (and there are many more) describe a vengeful Jesus and a wrathful, blood-thirsty and jealous god. Sure, quote some passages about how Jesus is all about love -- but why do those hold any more validity than the ones I just quoted?

Yes, I can find significant differences between Catholics and Evangelicals -- after all, that split occured because of differences in interpreting Scripture. But those differences are trivial compared to the commonalities among all Christian religions from the perspective of someobody who rejects the idea of god as anything other than bad writing.

Don't get offended every time somebody challenges your beliefs, instead, turn the other
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
mouselion
11:13 PM on 05/11/2009
The real issue to discuss is whether progressives should target right-wing radio audiences about climate change. Your assertion is that you shouldn't because of their religious beliefs based upon the bible. Your reasoning is that Christians all practice the same kind of dominion-based theology, which as an open-minded free-thinker, I know is not the case. However with the conservative crowd, you are correct that this is the basis for their belief system.

Total Christian adults in US: 76.0%
Total non-Christian religions 3.9%
None/ No religion, total 15.0%
Other demographics are listed as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Religious_self-identification_of_the_U.S._adult_population:_1990.2C_2001.2C_2008

To reject speaking to 76% of the population about something as dire as climate change because you believe their theology doesn't allow them to believe the science is unrealistic and unwise. It is our responsibility to speak to all demographics of people. Those who have a wider affinity for reason will listen, those who do not will either not listen or will soften up over time (as they see their family and friends change).

Younger Christians are proving to be more scientifically and politically adept, and so all the more reason to be speaking to the conservative element on this issue.
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01:28 AM on 05/12/2009
"The real issue to discuss is whether progressives should target right-wing radio audiences about climate change."

Jeff never said anything about targeting "right-wing radio audiences". Re-read the first paragraph.

"Your reasoning is that Christians all practice the same kind of dominion-based theology, which as an open-minded free-thinker, I know is not the case."

You KNOW this is not the case, but in your very next sentence you KNOW that it IS the case with conservatives. I hate being forced to defend conservatives, but do you really think that's fair? I'm just looking for a little consistency.

"To reject speaking to 76% of the population..."
Jeff was speaking of evangelicals (again, first paragraph). Do you think that 76% of the population are evangelicals?
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Jeff Schweitzer
Scientist; Fmr. White House Senior Policy Analyst
06:35 AM on 05/12/2009
I do not suggest that we reject speaking to that populaton; only that we do not reframe the debate to accommodate their beliefs. Present the data as clearly as and as articulately as possible using the data in hand.
11:39 PM on 05/11/2009
"Either the bible is the word of god, or it is not."

Pat Robertson asserts that, too. And I don't agree with him, either.

"Don't get offended every time somebody challenges your beliefs, instead, turn the other"

Cheek? Anyway, you've yet to challenge any of my beliefs. I'm not in the habit of blindly accepting (in a literal fashion or otherwise) claims made in an ancient document, nor am I in the habit of confusing myth with fact. I believe, as do most Christians, that the Bible is the work of men trying to express humankind's relationship with the infinite. As such, it has enormous value--it doesn't have to be the literal word of "god." I don't know why you keep insisting so.

I do know that I'm tired of being labeled conservative, uneducated, and opposed to science.
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Jeff Schweitzer
Scientist; Fmr. White House Senior Policy Analyst
06:47 AM on 05/12/2009
Well, gee, I'm tired of being labeled a liberal elitist simply because I don't share your views.

I do not insist that the bible is the leteral word of god. I am saying it has to be that or not; and if not, my interpretation of the book is as valid as yours. And believing in talking snakes or rebirth after death or that females came from a male rib is confusing myth with fact. If you believe none of that creation myth, or that god made everything in 6 days (and then had to rest, implying fatique, an un-god-like quality), you are selecting what parts of the bible you do believe -- no different than what I do, except I believe none of it instead of just parts of it. My logic in rejecting all of it is the same that one would use to reject some of it - I just include more the text that is rejected.
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LeftRight
TANSTAAFL
08:29 AM on 05/12/2009
He's not the one insisting that the bible is the unchanged word of god. My sister-in-law (whom I love to death!!) is a born again fundamentalist. She and I have gotten into some rip roaring arguments when I point out that the bible has been translated from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to Middle English to modern English, with her insisting that god has been there and ensured that no mistranslations occurred......
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Jeff Schweitzer
Scientist; Fmr. White House Senior Policy Analyst
10:07 PM on 05/11/2009
In any discussion of religion, or Christianity more specifically, a trend usually develops, as it has in this thread. People who believe in god soon assume the position of victim, that is the victim of discrimination or more oddly persecution. Any challenge to their position is immediately classified as the equivalent of racism. Yet claiming discrimination or persecution when you hold a majority of 75% or so is simply untenable, if not ridiculous. If anybody needs to be concerned about being fed to lions, it would be those who believe god is nothing but a bad myth. This claim to victimhood on the part of Christians also contains a dangerous double standard. It is perfectly OK for them to hear from the pulpit every Sunday that non-believers are going to hell - talk about persecution! - but any challenge to that rather offensive idea is immediatley labeled discrimination. Sorry folks but you can't have it both ways. You're not being persecuted because the ideas you propose are being challenged -- all at the same time you are blatantly discriminating against those who do not hold your beliefs. Claiming that we are going to hell for eternity as you believe we are is about the worst case of persection that one could imagine. So your weak claim as a victim is somewhat pathetic, certainly not viable, and definitely not supported by the facts of your vast majority.
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mouselion
11:30 PM on 05/11/2009
It is important to clarify: Not all Christians believe the bible is the inspired word of God (albeit a small minority). They reject the words as dead ink on paper and not the living spirit. Also, not all Christians believe in hell or eternal damnation (I submit an even larger group). Moreover, more Christians believe in science and evolution than you probably think. We're talking 76% of the population here -- that includes a certain number of scientists, progressive politicians and just plain everyday people. I expect this is true in varying degrees with Jews, Muslims, Hindus and (certainly) Buddhists.

76% of population (!) -- certainly needs to be engaged over human-induced climate change.
My advice: stop assuming you know how all these people believe; they all believe differently as individuals. Openess of mind towards the fact that many of them have open minds is essential. No one has a monopoly on Truth. No one even comes close. But, what little we do really know about needs to artfully communicated, especially on such a serious matter.
12:16 AM on 05/12/2009
You put words into the mouths of every Christian priest and preacher that are just not their words (excluding Evangelical-Fundamentalists), and you express outrage that Christians object to your doing that. I have never in my entire experience of going to church heard it preached that non-believers are going to he//. But then your caricature of Christianity doesn't even allow for a mainstream experience of Christians whose worship is mainly liturgical so that there might actually be no sermon at all during the worship of God. Furthermore, who is saved and who is damned is not even an Orthodox Christian question. Under any circumstance. Orthodox try to work out their own salvation. They are not in charge of what another person does. Furthermore, they don't get to say: I believe in Jesus Christ and now I am saved. They actually have to live like a Christian and try to do good in the world in order to hope maybe that might be enough to find salvation. It is indeed dishonest of you to assert that we (our community of believers) believe things that we do not and that we practice things that we do not.
12:53 AM on 05/12/2009
You are kidding right! I was raised a Mormon, and it was made very clear that if we did not believe the doctrine of the church, we would not be in one of the three layers of light but in total darkness for eternity. When I had myself excommunicated, I sealed my fate according to Mormon doctrine.
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Jeff Schweitzer
Scientist; Fmr. White House Senior Policy Analyst
06:52 AM on 05/12/2009
You really do have to be kidding if you claim that most Christian denominations,and certainly most mainstream ones, do not claim that non-believers are going to hell. If you believe in Jesus and are now saved (from what exactly is always a question), that immediately implies that if youdon't believe in Jesus you are not saved. And what does not being saved mean? That I won't get pulled up into the sky in Rapture, right? After all only those who believe will ascend to heaven -- my point exactly. You made my case for me while arguing against it.
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09:51 PM on 05/11/2009
Global Warming has little to no empirical support, relies on highly inaccurate computer models that cannot forecast current, much less future, climate change, and is not supported by a broad scientific consensus.
The current wave of unprecedented warming is due to natural changes. To the extent there is warming going on, it is due to the sun. The southern hemisphere has not been experiencing climate change over the last 30 years. The last time I checked, that's part of the globe. While these facts do not conclusively prove that global warming is not occurring - it is impossible to prove a negative - they certainly suggest that it is not.
Christians can choose to drive how they wish without fearing that their actions contribute to Global Warming. This does not mean that Christians do not need to consider God's desires in what they choose to drive. God clearly expects his servants to keep their families safe. It simply means that Christians have no reason to consider the effects their car might have on the climate when purchasing a new vehicle.
God is still up there.
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Jeff Schweitzer
Scientist; Fmr. White House Senior Policy Analyst
10:39 PM on 05/11/2009
I am impressed that you are better suited to interpret the hard data than 2500 scientists from 166 countries who conclude you are wrong -- that in fact the empirical evidence for anthropogenic climate change is overwhelming. Those scientists are quite aware of natural climate variations over the past 4 billion years -- and have taken that into account.

But why stop your challenge with this field -- why not claim that we have little empiracle evidence for the existence of viruses, or bacteria, or that DNA is the genetic code?

Perhaps you only claim expertise in this field, but not high energy physics because you have a political agenda, and wish to fit the data to your preconceived ideas? Just a thought.
10:07 AM on 05/13/2009
Jeff, the 2500 scientists from 166 countries is simply not true. I assume you're relying on either Al Gore or the IPCC for those numbers. Al Gore's lists of scientists included plastic surgeons and psychologists, with very few true climate scientists. I would also commend you to this research http://www.dailytech.com/Survey+Less+Than+Half+of+all+Published+Scientists+Endorse+Global+Warming+Theory/article8641.html

for a repudiation of the Naomi Oreskes articles on which Gore based his contention that there was a "consensus" among scientists about global warming. The empirical data for anthropogenic global warming is only overwhelming if you take on faith the fact that CO2 is a cause of it. I submit to you that is a religious, not a scientific belief.
10:09 AM on 05/13/2009
Why must all global warming believers rely on the argument that if you dispute the religion of global warming, you must disclaim all belief in all science? I have no problem with the science of evolution. I do have an issue with a manufactured climate crisis designed to make a few people, and our government, much wealthier.
12:45 AM on 05/12/2009
To make these comments about climate models is absurd. Scientists go to great pains to validate and verify their models. (By the way mathematical models are used in virtually every scientific and engineering field.) Why because scientists are brutal in their critique of each others work. The last articles I read in Nature (a scientific journal) indicated that the models are proving to be conservative--that is the changes are happening somewhat faster than predicted.
08:14 PM on 05/11/2009
Over Easter I saw this movie on TV: Rome is burning - blame the Christians. I hope history doesn't repeat itself. I wouldn't like to be lionfood.
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
04:51 PM on 05/11/2009
The private sector will save us from the Earth.
Praise Je$u$!