Newsflash: Survey of Respondents Shows Males & Females Equal in Naked Body Shots in MSM
This just in: I am changing the title of this article because it is only getting comments from people who think that I am a prude and that a stepford society is good. I would summarize the response thush far to be: males and females are equally represented in media and Internet pictures when naked. Most people are ectomorphs and mesomorphs and it is possible for any person to exercise and eat their way from being an endomporh into the aforementioned body types. Society is best served by a media dominated by images of airbrushed female nudes. Youngsters who regularly view this kind of "art" will be the ones with the highest self-esteem, regard for both genders, and success in personal and professional relationships. Ok. That is too long, so I'll use the one above. ###
After reading Scarlett Johansson's article, "The Skinny," with 274 comments, I was astounded to see that the nude Allure pictures post had 353,000 page views and 530 comments. The irony is that the Allure pics, Allure magazine, and the distribution of the pictures, are promoting exactly what Johansson is concerned about.
The selling of the "perfect" female body obviously has an enormous market value, but it also has a huge cultural cost. For children, adolescents and adults of both genders, this fake portrayal of the female body is damaging. Unrealistic expectations, a focus on only the external person instead of the whole person can crush self esteem and relationships.
The first amendment is not going anywhere, nor should it (!) But it places responsibility on citizens to engage in a dialogue about the ramifications of pornography on the Internet and other media, and it's effect on mental, physical and societal health.
Johansson notes that "as many as 10 million females and 1 million males living in the US are fighting a life and death battle with anorexia or bulimia." Those are high numbers, and don't even include the relational and personal toll of objectifying the body, male or female.
Just last week, Sean Hannity and the fashion police picked First Lady Michelle Obama's outifts apart. She was too casual, too fancy, too off the rack, too haute, too drab, too hot. Her figure was all right, and all wrong. In many ways, it's not the First Lady people were responding to. People were also reflecting their own views on the significance of female appearance and what role it plays. Also at play were their views of the role of women and men in society, and at this particular time in our country's growth.
My message is this: millions of young people are watching. They are forming their personal and professional identities, based in part on what they see around them. The images they see now have lasting effects on their self-image, their views of how they should behave in relationships and in their work. So what should we tell them about those things?
Their names are Julia, Jen, Halle and Michelle. They're posing in bikinis, burning up the box office, hogging magazine covers and kicking 20-somethings to the curb. Here's why seasoned is the new sexy!
Loading comments…
Want to reply to a comment? Hint: Click "Reply" at the bottom of the comment; after being approved your comment will appear directly underneath the comment you replied to
Women objectify men ALL THE TIME.
They just don't use looks as the criteria. They objectify a man's career, income, etc.
How many articles to you think you'd have to write to convince men that the women they find attractive are not....
Kill,
You seem repeatedly determined to make this into a conversation about posters' imagined personal attributes rather than the substance of the arguments. A game I have already said, I'm not interested in, since it's a logically fallacious form of internet debate.
As for your self-described animosity and imagined control, you have not manipulated much of anything besides your keyboard. For myself, it is simply an opportunity to express my views publicly, and at length, just like you or any other human being.
Btw, many prostitutes do not like sexual intercourse, with high percentages having been molested or raped during childhood. Meaning, that technically speaking, they are "prudes" and often "frigid".
(Not to shatter anyone's bubble or anything, about "liberation", "self expression", and "sex".)
I am having a lot of technical difficulties posting at this website. Perhaps it's related to all the photo loading that simultaneously happens. I notice that ordinary posts don't always go up either.
Kill, you referenced "the right to kill", in your other habit of mischaracterizing people's statements and then proceeding to build arguments on straw. All I can is that rights and responsibilities go hand in hand. The men and women who kill defend our freedoms and liberties -- the same ones you are arguing about on this forum.
All that said, I opposed the Iraq war before most Americans did, and before we even went in.
But I must go. Be well, peace.
"The men and women who kill defend our freedoms and liberties -- the same ones you are arguing about on this forum. "
My freedom was not at risk when we moved into Iraq, which did not attack us. And my own army time was all about defense. I would never have served in any offensive force (as the US military happens to be) if I could have avoided it. But that's another discussion.
"All that said, I opposed the Iraq war before most Americans did, and before we even went in."
Something we can agree on. Now take the glory out of the military which you yourself characterize as a band of rapists and you are one step closer to reality.
Peace to you, too.
I most certainly did not characterize the military as "a band of rapists". I shared a BBC article on problems women are facing within the military.
I do not see the military, either, ITO glory. But I honor and respect the service these men and women provide our country. If you don't think we need a military, in today's world, you are the one who needs another step closer to reality.
With all due respect, since you say you were in the military, though in a peacetime capacity.
"Btw, many prostitutes do not like sexual intercourse, with high percentages having been molested or raped during childhood. Meaning, that technically speaking, they are "prudes" and often "frigid"."
You seem to have the weirdest definitions of "prude" and "frigid" I have ever encountered, I have to say. I will leave it to someone else to point the problems with your use of both words out to you... if they care. It seems it's not worth the effort if you are so much off course as you are here.
"Kill, you referenced "the right to kill", in your other habit of mischaracterizing people's statements and then proceeding to build arguments on straw."
I don't think I did that. But if it helps you to believe such a thing, again, I can't argue with you.
"All I can is that rights and responsibilities go hand in hand."
Indeed. Which is why I served in the army. I could have objected and done 18 months of civil service. I didn't. And to be honest... the army taught me a lot about civic responsibility. Not so much about killing, though. Thank god.
KTM, the definitions I'm using are straight out of the dictionary.
"You seem repeatedly determined to make this into a conversation about posters' imagined personal attributes rather than the substance of the arguments.
Actually, no. That you are lacking substantive responses to most of my arguments, I can't help with.
"As for your self-described animosity and imagined control"
Lighten up. I made a lighthearted joke hoping you would mistake it for a serious comment. I told you I was a manipulative bitch. The sentence was self-referential. Stuff like that is nothing but fun with logic.
"For myself, it is simply an opportunity to express my views publicly, and at length, just like you or any other human being."
One thing we have in common. I write because it is fun. I also write for the enjoyment of others more than I do for the person I am replying to. It was clear from the first split second that nothing can change your mind by even as much as a split hair's width. So why do you think people are replying to you? To pound reason into you? Hardly. We do it so it becomes clear where you stand and that there is an alternative to what you say. Everybody reading this can then make up their own mind.
I didn't really understand your reference. That's all.
Your reason for posting with me sounds almost moralistic. ;-)
It's fascinating to me that somebody decided that my last post needed to be removed from the dialogue.
In it, I pointed out that Scarlett Johansson - whose recent HuffPo blog was quoted by the blogger as part of her anti-nudity crusade herself posed buck naked on the cover of Vanity Fair not too long ago. I posted a link to the cover, so anyone could see that her photo was EXACTLY the same as the photos in Allure.
I'm not sure who was respondible for flagging my post as offensive - but this is exactly what's wrong with the blogger's argument. As a progressive, I'm against censorship generally - and I'm certainly against censorship based on sexuality, whether motivated by religious fundamentalism or some twisted version of feminism.
Those who don't want to look at nude bodies don't have to, just like those who can't stand alcohol don't have to drink. But for the rest of us - who aren' going to be driven mad by either drinking or looking, it is one of life's legitimate pleasures.
Do some young women have problems because of images they see in the media? Sure. And so do some young men, after listening to Ozzy Osbourne. Do you want a do-over on the ill-conceived and (thankfully) aborted Tipper Gore crusade, too?
Look at Europe: Much more overt in mainstream media displays of naked, beautiful bodies; and more progressive than our puritanically influenced society, and with several present and former woman leaders, too.
I think these photos are what you term "a twisted version of feminism." With "feminism" being used as rationale for what is really sexism.
Now I am probably more progressive in my views of the rights of the women posing and the industry itself (and all else connected with it -- and you don't think pornography is connected to prostitution, you need to take off some rose filtered glasses) than some of the people cheering them to "take it off, baby".
But I don't want my children to grow up in the shadow they cast. I want them to be able to participate in the adult world - and on news forums with issue based context and photos of women portrayed much differently. I am also a parent who doesn't object to children going to art museums where nudity is on display, and we have nude paintings and sculptures in our home.
Why should my children go to a special district for children? They have a right to live freely in this world. Let the models go to a red light district.
So let me see if I understand what you're saying.
Those nude photos in Allure, or Vanity Fair (or wherever) are (somehow)p
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but it seems quite bizarre to me. I don't see Scarlett Johansson, or Chelsea Handler or any of those other women who modeled nude as participants in either pornography or prostitution.
I'll repeat my earlier observation: It's over the top rhetoric like this that has served the feminist movement so poorly - and caused the majority of women coming of age in the 21st Century not to take it seriously.
Don't take that as an attack on all fashion things European, or that I disagree entirely with your viewpoint (because I don't). But Europe is EXTREMELY sexist, and often in an even more insidious way than the U.S. I think progressive Americans are often fooled by what charades as savoir faire in Europe. And we are being subjected to another commercial sales campaign in that regard, too.
Have you been to Europe?
:-)
I don't care what anybody says. I can't stand it. Everytime I go to the entertainment section of Huffpo, a supposedly progressive news website, I see layouts of naked actresses. All the time. Not to mention the naked bodies have been airbrushed so they don't look human anymore. I have never seen any layouts of naked male actors. Women are far more objectified than men are in our society. Look at how freaked out people got when Dr. Manhattan was showed nude in a nonsexual way in Watchmen. Show all the naked women you like in magazines, movies, and cable TV. But show a naked blue guy and everyone (especially men) freak out. That is a double standard.
"Women are far more objectified than men are in our society."
That's only because there are more straight than gay men. If you want to see objectified males, dive into the gay subculture. One of the best satirical takes on that is the gay steel mill in "The Simpsons". I am rolling on the floor every time I see that episode!
"Look at how freaked out people got when Dr. Manhattan was showed nude in a nonsexual way in Watchmen. "
People weren't freaked out. Prude people were freaked out. If you live in the US you are exposed to a lot of prudery that does not exist in more advanced parts of the world. If you feel like seeing the naked male body, go to a European nudist beach. They are "hanging out" there. All two inches of them (two inches on a warm day, that is)
"But show a naked blue guy and everyone (especially men) freak out. "
I won't freak out about either. You are simply exposed to the wrong people... which, I admit, is the majority of the US population. Time to break out and get friends with open minds!
There is an easy cure: don't look at the entertainment section of HuffPo. It's not like you will learn something interesting there.
"I have never seen any layouts of naked male actors."
You are looking at the wrong thing. Naked guys are in "Men's Health", which is usually sold at the supermarket checkout. Trust me, the ordinary guy looks rather pale against these steroid pumped muscle models. On the upside... we live longer because we don't destroy our heart muscle with illegal drugs.
:-)
They have removed some of the photos, but they were on every single news page. I don't know who can look at a news page with a picture of a naked human who's commercially available for sex and not be distracted, whatever their opinion of the photo. I notice, too, that not one photo advcoate is able to address the argument on children. I want to live in a society that minors can access. I am more concerned with THEIR right to participate as full human beings. The models can go to a red light district.
I don't like it either. I hadn't noticed the section before Salman ex-wife was up for sale on every page, but I just looked over there, and it's a real disappointment. A full spread with polling and polling ("Who's hotter? "This babe or that babe?").
I had posted, remembering the model "Twiggy" who seems, in my recollection, to mark the period of history that coincided with a spike in women's eating disorders. I googled her up in "images" and found, in addition to a lot of pictures of her earlier years, an entire website devoted to how she paintbrushed for an appearance in a magazine marking some business occasion. She was made to look unbelievable different. But what was sadder was this glee over "look what a hag she really is" -- "we caught a real picture of her going into a supermarket" (or something like that). What she looked like, btw, was what a woman normally looks like at that age -- except that she had an unusual amount of make-up on.
Our cultural values are very messed up. And our views and valuation of older women speak loudly in that example.
I don't find the Twiggy-type of model particularly special. In all of my life I have only met a single guy who "had to have" a broomstick. He found a very slender partner and is married now. I hope he married her for herself and not her looks.
"Our cultural values are very messed up. "
By what measure? One needs a "normal" to measure a difference like that. You seem to have that. I don't. At least not in this department. In terms of "just, preemptive war", and such, well, that's a different thing altogether.
"And our views and valuation of older women speak loudly in that example."
You mean I won't love my partner any more when she is 75? We shall see about that.
:-)
I'm a woman. I really don't care to see nude men on a daily basis. Let's face it. Women are prettier to look at. Sorry guys. We are.
Our society is in the crapper when we can put nude pictures on the front page, and people think nothing of it.
All societal norms have been thrown out the window.
We don't just have the barbarians at the gates. We have invited them in for tea.
Sleep well....
And our society is really in the crapper when most of the people thinking nothing of it, can't distinguish between pornography and artwork at the MET. And have a yen for verbally stoning women's right's advocates.
But after this last presidential election, is it surprising? With all that came out of the closet.
Our society is really in the crapper because there are still almost 50% of the voting population who will vote for the GOP, no matter what. Admittedly, that might be related to not knowing the difference between art and porn.
:-)
At the danger of you mistaking me for someone who calls you "a prude" I would like to express three notions:
1) The average male and female body are wonderful. Especially when pressed against each other in the middle of a tropical summer night. But people need to get that kind of experience to know that.
2) The artistically AND pornographically enhanced male and female body are wonderful to LOOK at and have a distinctly different "use" than real human love. Everybody who has experienced 1) will know that and understand the difference. And they will probably look at both sales art and porn with a slightly better developed sense of humor.
3) People who have a body image problem have a body image problem. It wouldn't go away magically even if we reduced all imagery on magazine pages and covers to gray rectangles with exactly four inches height and width.
"So what should we tell them about those things? "
If you don't mind me being absolutely honest about it: tell them to look at perfected nude human bodies if they like, masturbate without guilt over them if they feel like it and to get an honest boyfriend or girlfriend to experience 1) as soon and as often as possible. I can't guarantee that everybody's body image problem will disappear, but every body feels better when stroked to orgasm regularly. That much I can guarantee.
:-)
Do you also offer to take pictures of people, in the nude, and ready to be sent to heaven guaranteed, to make them feel better about themselves?
I offer simple practical advice to people, which they are free to ignore. I also practice what I know to do well. Nude photography, being an art form, is not one of those things. I am more of a science guy.
Having said that, you strike me as having a real emotional problem with naked bodies, and it's not simple prudery. Would that be fair to say?
I have been a huge Chelsea Handler fan and will continue to be, but this shocks me. I was also fed up hearing all the news about Michelle Obama's outfits in Europe and the UK. I wondered why we weren't hearing more about Hilary Clinton, a woman who has an important job, rather than the (admittedly lovely, kind, intelligent and compassionate) Michelle Obama. Someday Ms. Obama may land in an important position, but right now she is the First Lady.
We are obsessed with looks, beauty and youth, and it's become a sickness where judgement of women is concerned. Take the case of the gawking and gasping as the 47-year-old singer from Scotland approached the mike. Why such shock when beautiful music issued from her pipes? She is a great singer. Is it such a shock that she is not young, buff and boasting a leopard skin bikini?
I
"Someday Ms. Obama may land in an important position, but right now she is the First Lady."
And that's not an important job? Wouldn't it have been wonderful if Ms. Bush would have talked Mr. Bush out of invading Iraq? Think about the thousands of Americans who could have been saved. Not to mention the hundred thousand Iraqis.
Just an idea.
Women are crazy, there is nothing that this article has said about the oppression of women that couldn't be apply to male professional athletes. I will never be as good or have the body of Michal Jordan, but he is not oppressing me when I watch him play. Of course the women in magazines are abnormally good looking, a lot of women want to be in magazines and the photographer will pick the best one, how is that any different then how they pick player for a professional sports team. Women need to realize that people in magazines are professional good looking people, they have genetic gifts and they work very hard at looking good, just like any athlete. Women need to learn to take the fact that they aren’t as good looking as Scarlett Johansson the same way they take the fact that they can’t swim as fast as Michael Phelps and relax.
Michael Jordon is to athelete as Michelle Kwan is to athelete. She is not oppressing me when I watch her perform, either.
Neither of them are lying on a bed stark naked, however, with a certain look in their eye ... and on every news page that I'm reading at this website ...
Doesn't it bother Salmon Rushdie?
Salman.
athlete.
Being naked is normal. God made most men to enjoy seeing a pretty woman - the more natural the more enjoyable. Probably has some evolutionary benefit. The problem is our society makes it a "naughty" thing to be seen nude and shame on you for enjoying something that is natural. Bad people click to many times on chance to see a pretty body! Yes, I know we are not all so pretty but we are not all so smart and creative and anything else either. Do you want the future where everyone looks the same and has all the same attributes???
The message of the photography -- and what makes it sexist -- is women are not beautiful. The photos are meant to put you down and keep you down.
Because if women were beautiful, in the figurative eye of the photographic beholder (or powers that control them) - they would portray women as they really are. And women would feel empowered and affirmed by viewing these pictures.
They would do the same for girls.
how do these photographs put you down? and "keep you down?" that says a lot more about YOU than the photographs.
I'm sorry... this kind of talk is sick to me. Absolutely sick. To think that any of those women are depicted perfectly, heck ... I don't see perfection other than the fact that they aren't perfect and that's what makes them perfect!
Do you really hate yourself so much to say that this is harming you? This is really something more psychological inside of YOU than anything photographed in Allure!
I'm jumping up and down in excitement that a magazine got over all of you PRUDISH people and did it anyway! YAY FOR ALLURE!!!
You're the poster advertising for your business here, aren't you? Go find someone else to kick on behalf of dredging up a photography job for yourself with Penthouse or Playboy.
I don't know how any college educated woman in the 21st century media industry has missed out on 30 years of research on women and girls' self-esteem in relation to media products, and research via the women's movement.
Your speculative and gender-based personal attacks when others are discussing their opinions say the most about YOU.
Another aspect of the fake beauty standard in these photos goes to race. The non-white woman, though darker, is basically made to look like a white woman. So I think the photos are also racist.
It is rare to see photos that take people as they are, as being beautiful, rather than making people into something that they're not -- or presenting a standard that virtually no one in the society meets.
It's a great tool for keeping women down and expressing the view our society really has of women as not beautiful at all. Because they don't look like airbrushed portraitures with unfailingly caucasian characteristics, or like a 2-3% minority, if not completely non-existent.
This kind of photography is damaging to women, and well documented as being thus.
"It is rare to see photos that take people as they are, as being beautiful, rather than making people into something that they're not -- or presenting a standard that virtually no one in the society meets."
Everybody who has a camera and who used it on the best vacation of their life has dozens if not hundreds of such images.
If you go on any photo sharing site, you will find plenty of private photographs of happy people who don't mind showing them to the rest of the world. All these people are beautiful in their own way. No fashion photographer needed. No studio required. Photoshop does not have a happiness filter.
Of course, if you restrict your selection only to glamor photographs that support your own point of view, you will never get to see happy, natural, beautiful people... with warts, sun spots, pot-bellies, bald spots and crooked teeth.
Try flickr. Search for "vacation" or "self portrait". Better still, try "my wife" or "hubby". Let your fantasy roam. There are some absolutely gorgeous portraits that tell you everything you need to know about the photographer's love.
Hope this helps.
I am clearly referring to the industry. If you read my other posts, too, I make clear distinctions between pornography and art.
You do not seem to read other people's posts with comprehension before responding, and you seem to project a lot. Indeed, your *problem* with mine seems to have started with the photographer looking for a job.
So... I guess you all wouldn't like my work either? http://www
I respectfully disagree that it forms a bad self image. Most of the women I photograph feel liberated and powerful and gain a feeling of self love. Big, tall, short, skinny, fat... doesn't matter. Anyone can be beautiful.
This prudish attitude ... I shake my head!
as a female who has had to deal with the onslaught of all this while trying to grow up i can say, "YES!": THIS LEADS TO DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR AND SELF ESTEEM ISSUES. i could tell you horrible stories but i won't. let's just say that at 5'1 and 100 pounds i am dogged by the thought of 'losing that extra 5-7 pounds' almost daily. i know this is ridiculous, but it's "expected" in order to stay "hot", "thin", "marketable", "camera ready", what have you. as an adult i now know what goes into the production and post production of photos, but as a teen and pre-teen growing up i didn't. it kept me in a constant state of self hatred. now, most of my friends (in their 20's/30's) are thin/super body conscious/and/or on anti- depressants. i live in l.a., so maybe it's just that... go figure...
I lived in L.A. for a long time and yes the most successful people are the best looking people, too. If you want to be in sales you need to be good looking. But there are plenty of other things to do. Do you mean to say that Naomi Klein is successful because she is gorgeous? I think not. Read her books, go to thenation.
Having said all of that, sex IS about being naked and you can not have life without sex. So, complain if you must but i don't think men are ever going to stop looking at the naked female form. It's a natural!
Pornography is like a BEAUTIFUL love story with all the boring parts taken out. - Richard Jeni
You must be logged in to comment. Log in or connect with
