Rick Warren and Gays

Gay activists are giving Rick Warren the full treatment, accusing him of homophobia and hate speech and of comparing gay marriage to incest. None of this is true, as the mainstream press will eventually get around to mentioning, perhaps as early as next week.

Warren supports full rights and privileges for civil unions -- health and insurance benefits, visiting rights, etc. -- and has done so for some time. He simply does not want to alter a definition of marriage that has been supported in every culture and every religion for some 5,000 years. A large majority of Americans feel that way. Are they all "homophobes" or do they just have a conception of marriage different from that of gay activists?

Warren points out that no practical benefit for gays is involved in the Proposition 8 ruckus -- in California, all the benefits of marriage were extended to gays in 1999 under a domestic partnership law.

Does Warren really think gay unions are like incest? No. Talking to Steve Waldman of BeliefNet, Warren offered a list of partnerships that he doesn't believe qualify for the term "marriage": a committed boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, "a brother and sister being together, an older guy marrying a child and a guy having multiple wives."

It is not a bright idea to denounce as a hater and bigot a person as widely admired around the country as Rick Warren, especially when he shows no indication of hate or bigotry and has contributed millions to the fight against AIDS. It is also not bright to denounce black people as "niggers" for voting 70 percent in favor of Prop. 8, as happened at a few rallies in California, with some of the n-words directed even at black gays sensibly trying to ward off such attacks by wearing anti-Prop 8 t-shirts.

Blacks voted heavily for Prop. 8 because they do not see it as a civil rights issue. If blacks don't agree with gay activists on this, it's no surprise that the rest of the country doesn't see a civil rights issue here either. Alas, gays may be locking themselves into a strategy of denouncing and attacking the people they should be trying to win over. Rick Warren says, "Gays in California already have their rights. What they desire is approval and validation from those who disagree with them and they are willing to force it by law if necessary."

Prop. 8 and its aftermath are the first time in the four decades since Stonewall that the gay movement has started to look like an organized tantrum -- ugly threats, anti-black rhetoric, intimidation and harassment of Mormons (called "morons") at their homes and temples, even a series of fake anthrax mailings. If gays want to veer away from this path, dropping the "Rick Warren is a hater" rhetoric would be a nice start.

Comments

[Naturemedicinewoman]

Put your hearing aid in and your glasses on!!! No issue!!!!!!!!! Gays are not allowed to be members of SaddleBack church unless they repent....­. Repent for what....be­ing molded by the same hands of God that molded each and every one of us ....black, white, pink, yellow, disabled, etc.

Look at his website...­.the discrimination and intolerance for not only gays, but Mormons is still there! There is even a piece on the workplace.­...how to deal with us.

Is he trying to sell his next book , does he have fear it won't be a bestseller? There is something else he should fear....it is someone .... the God he preaches about....G­od teaches love....no­t judgement.

[freddiefranks]

I'm sitting here, and all I can think is "thank god - or rather my parents - I live in Sweden, where this hasn't been and issue for a few decades now". Then I think "your entire government needs a good washing-up". The fact that Obama (and everyone else in the Congress/Cabinet) needs to pander to religious groups, various civil rights groups AND corporate lobbyists - all of whom disagree on EVERYTHING - is a mark of how broken your country is.

As an atheist, of course I feel religion (the institutions, not necessarily faith itself) is the root of 50% of the US' ideological woes. Shame. Also, what was Obama thinking, picking Warren?

[KDarnell]

I agree with John Leo in that I do not believe Rick Warren has any ill-feelings towards gay people, per se. I believe Warren's theology is incorrect thus giving him (and many others) a misunderstanding of who gay people are and what the Bible really teaches about homosexuality - not just what English translations say. As a gay Christian minister myself, I know that the church has a hard time with the issue of sex and separating sex from homosexuality. They hear the word gay, Same Gender Loving or homosexual and immediately images of perverse sexual acts enter their minds. (How they got there is another story)

I wrote a book that I wish Rick Warren would read (especially since I read his - LOL). It is called "What Did Jesus Say? - Why the Bible Does Not Condemn Homosexuality. It clarifies the true meaning behind the various Bible passages to 'seem' to condemn homosexuality. It reveals the bias predetermined interpretations that are projected onto these texts versus the interpretation and understanding that can be gained from them. There is so many cultural issues that must be considered as well as language differences when studying this scriptural passages.

If anyone is interested, an excerpt can be read at Google Books http://books.google.com/bkshp?hl=en&tab=wpp) by typing in the title. It can be ordered at www.createspace.com/3361418.

I hope Pastor Warren gets a clear understanding of homosexuality, especially in light of the gay friendships he says he has.

[FdeBear]

Show your solidarity with the GLT community on Inauguration Day 2009. Wear a White Knot! Spread the word.

[LeaderofMen]

No marriage in America is made legal in a church.

All marriages in the US are made legal by the State.

Prop 8 was about the church telling the State what will be legal and what will not be legal.

That was, and still to this second is, a direct violation of the separation of church and State.

[retrorio]

The only thing I agree with in this article is that some gay people who are guilty of it should not make racist remarks. But as far as the idea that gay people should seek to win over Americans that are bigoted toward them and don't realize that gay marriage IS a civil rights issue, well, that is not a bright idea, as Mr. Leo would say. I don't think oppressed people should have to win over their oppressors. Bigotry is just wrong and should be denounced. Not that long ago, you could be imprisoned for being a homosexual. Not just for sex with the same gender, but dancing with the same sex. I think many people don't take gay civil rights seriously because they don't see gay relationships as real. I assume they don't think gay people can actually love one another, especially those that use the expression "gay lifestyle", which implies all gay people live the same type of life.

[domperro]

a penetrating once and forever mistake.

[illampu]

Oh yeah, Warren's a bigot alright. But he's a bigot with a constituency. By playing nice with these guys in the general Obama brought the existing 49% up to 53%. He must think he needs them, and he might be right.

From a crowd-control perspective, tho, it was a mistake. Now a chunk of the overflow 4 million crowd will be pissed off protesters.

[JSOhio]

I was under the assumption that we have seperation of church and state in the USA. If that is true then marriage is a civil union. You can go to the government office and purchase a marriage license and get married by your mayor..if you want

I think Sen. Obama made a horrible choice with Warren. He is a bigot hiding in Christian clothing. Growing up gay was horrible in my small midwest town. Thank God I got through it but a lot of kids did and still commit suicide. The suicide rate is much higher for gay kids that straight kids....Su­re Rick..we chose it!!!! Could someone please tell me when I did?

[walleymr]

Right there with you, except I was in a small southeastern town.

I guess I chose it around the time I was 15, 16. I figured it would make me popular, help me fit in better. How could it not in a small town in Alabama?

[RISwampyankee]

Mr Leo,
Do you think we should continue to be nice little gays and lesbians now that opponents to prop 8 have revealed (at least part) of their true agenda?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/us/politics/20marriage.html?_r=1&hp

[AvaTara]

My thought is that Mr. Leo would prefer you GO BACK INTO THE CLOSET and not express your opinions about obvious bigots. I don't feel that he cares to consider you a normal, functioning, engaged human being. It appears that, though he may accept you in the abstract, he feels no empathy for you in the concrete.

Part of "working with whom we disagree without being disagreeable" is making an informed decision about choosing with whom to work. Rick Warren is not on my short list.

[ElderWise]

Re Mr Leo's comment: Does Warren really think gay unions are like incest? No.

It's on tape, you fool.

[coachsappho]

John Leo is biased in this article, in Warren's favor. I don't know all of the facts, however, i heard warren myself tonight on Dateline and he very clearly referred to gays as: immature and promiscuous. If he is for civil unions it's only because he knows there is such a push for full equality perhaps they can railroad that by offering a token.

Leo and Warren obviously have not done their homework - civil unions and domestic partnerships could never be equal to marriage. For example, when Leo says there is no need for marriage in CA because a domestic partnership law passed in 1999 gave gays essentially all the same rights that's just hogwash!

There are over 1,000 rights given by marriage and no known civil union or DP comes any where near this total. Even if it is true that gay couples in CA now have the 'same' rights as married couples, then what about their federal rights, such as social security survivor benefits?

Lastly, I think Warren is purposely using the media right now to demean glbt's. he did so tonight on dateline by calling gay love immature and promiscuous. When he was asked point blank by ann curry about loving gay couples who desire to make a legal commitment he avoided responding to that instead bringing up a 'gay friend' who asked him 'why isn't it ok to have multiple partners?' I think this response says lots about warren's true intentions and (lack of) character.

[AvaTara]

(Deep Breath.)

This Warren is really raising my blood pressure+++. Many Heteros have multiple partners. Many Heteros have been divorced & remarried ad nauseum. Does anyone pay attention to what is going on around them?

I am aghast at this lingering, residual marginalization of HUMAN BEINGS who LOVE and wish others may celebrate that love and commitment with them, without being demeaned and criticized or deemed as the "other".

Isn't LOVE what this sadly diminished planet is lacking? Why make an issue of same sex LOVE (yes - this is genuine!) when we can turn our eyes to the multiple genocides in Africa and elsewhere?

That, my friends, is an issue. HATRED and the will to k1ll for inexplicable reasons that are greed-based.

LOVE=LOVE, no matter how you spin it. Do we agree that love is the answer?

Why is this such anathema to evangelistic sorts? Does it line their coffers to regurgitate what their "followers" want to hear??? Precisely why do these followers WANT to hear bigoted rationalizations about love? Does it provide a sense of "I am right, you are WRONG?"

I am on the verge of tears and the keyboard is a blur. And I'm tired of raking through the B_S to find a glimmering gem of enlightenment.

[XCITIZEN]

I just emailed barackobama.coma.com to tell them how disgusted I am at this travesty.

This is the message I got in return:

Dear Friend,

Thank you for contacting President-elect Barack Obama and Obama for America. Barack greatly appreciates the outpouring of messages he is receiving from across the country and from Americans around the world. He is deeply honored by the confidence the American people have placed in him...

EMAIL THEM AND TELL THEM WHAT YOU THINK, AND ENCOURAGE EVERY OTHER PERSON TO TO THE SAME. barackobama.coma.com

[AvgPseudoIntellectual]

I am actively pro-gay-marriage, but I will be writing to tell him how much I commend him for his choice of bringing 2 very sincere religious figures together whose views differ sharply on more than issue. I'll also commend him for the fact that this will be the first ever inaugural parade featuring an LGBT group.

Anger is blinding.

[GayMark]

No. Anger is the single greatest motivator for change.

Sometimes, rose-colored glasses blind you and convince (the general) you that things are different.

Anger started the entire gay rights movement. HELLO.

[RISwampyankee]

And if we don't "veer from that path", if we give hate as good as we get, what are you going to do--justify the next hate crime, the next round of homophobic laws?

[TJustSaying]

Some here are making this guy out to be Pat Robinson on the 700 club. Does he agree with everything you agree with no. Did he make some reference to comparing Polygamy and incest to gay marriage? Maybe. But are we not making a similar mistake in judging harshly those that believe in those two things simply because we disagree with the lifestyle? You can say being gay is not a choice but you are quick to shut the door behind you say no other too may pass.

[BarryS]

excuse me, but New jersey is going to have to allow same-sex marriage, Many companies say that they didn't have to follow the "separate-­but-unequa­l" civil union law because their contracts and whatever require the word marriage. Warren and his ilk want to feel superior in their multiple divorce marriages. I will believe Warren's adherence to the Bible when he admits publically that he supports:
1. polygamy
2. slavery
3. stoning of shellfish eaters
and 4. stoning of adulterers.