Gun Shows and Terrorists

Gun Shows are the equivalent of al Qaeda terrorists walking right onto the airplane while law abiding citizens wait in the TSA line!

At over 5,000 gun shows each year, in 32 States, criminals and terrorists are allowed to purchase firearms from private gun dealers without an ID or background check. Although many dealers at gun shows are federally licensed and therefore legally required to contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NCIS) to ensure that a prospective purchaser is not prohibited from possessing firearms, private sellers have no such requirement. This dangerous "gun show loophole" has allowed criminals and terrorists to legally buy and sell guns in the US on a cash-and-carry, no-questions-asked basis for years. The following are just a few proven and frightening examples of how terrorists and criminals have bought guns undetected at US Gun Shows.

A manual titled, "How Can I Train Myself for Jihad" was found among the rubble at a training facility for a radical Pakistan-based Islamic terrorist organization. The manual contains a chapter on "Firearms Training" and singles out the US for its easy availability of firearms and states that al-Qaeda members in the US can "obtain an assault weapon legally, preferably AK-47 or variations". In Texas, Muhammad Asrar was arrested in an investigation of the Sept. 11 attacks. He pleaded guilty to immigration violations and illegal possession of ammunition. The Pakistani store owner said he had bought handguns, rifles and a submachine gun at gun shows since 1994. On September 10, 2001, just one day before the devastating attacks against the United States, Ali Boumelhem was convicted on a variety of weapons violations plus conspiracy to ship weapons to the terrorist organization Hezbollah in Lebanon. He and his brother Mohamed had purchased an arsenal of shotguns, hundreds of rounds of ammunition, flash suppressors and assault weapons parts from Michigan gun shows without undergoing background checks.

On April 20, 1999, in the deadliest High school shooting in United States history in Littleton Colorado, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold procured two shotguns, an assault rifle and a TEC-9 assault pistol and shot 26 students, killing 13 of them before turning the guns on themselves. Subsequent investigation by the ATF found that all four of the weapons had been purchased from private sellers at gun shows. Some of the guns were purchased for the killers by their friend, Robyn Anderson. Later, Ms. Anderson would state publicly that, had she been required to undergo a background check at the gun show, she would not have purchased the guns for the teens. Branch Davidian cult leader David Koresh used Texas gun shows to make large gun purchases. According to an ATF arrest warrant, Koresh and his cult made "regular purchases of weapons and ammunition [from] flea markets and gun shows." In the end, authorities estimated that Koresh had at least 200 automatic and semi-automatic assault rifles stockpiled, plus thousands of rounds of ammunition. Finally Oklahoma City bomber, Timothy McVeigh, was a "Private Seller" at Gun Shows. He along with accomplice Michael Fortier, admitted to stealing $60,000 worth of shotguns, rifles and handguns from an Arkansas gun collector's ranch and then reselling the stolen weapons at gun shows.

It's just common sense that buyers and sellers at gun shows be required to abide by the same reasonable standards that law abiding gun buyers and the majority of Federally Licensed gun dealers comply with. It's not too much to ask that criminals and terrorists who have been known to exploit the "Gun Show Loophole" undergo criminal background checks and show ID's before they buy guns in the US. Both Presidential Candidates and the majority of Americans including gun owners support closing this dangerous loophole. It's time for Congress to act.

Click for larger image

Stop Handgun Violence (www.stophandgunviolence.org), a non-profit organization dedicated to the prevention of gun violence, today unveiled its newest advertising campaign on the nation's largest billboard alongside the Massachusetts Turnpike in Boston. The 252-foot billboard displays a new powerful and provocative call-to-action message urging lawmakers to close the "gun show loophole" in federal gun laws that allows terrorists and criminals to purchase firearms at gun shows, "no questions asked," without a criminal background check or ID. The billboard, created by the Boston-based advertising agency Modernista, is designed as a mock gun show advertisement containing the message that highlights the ease and accessibility for individuals to legally buy guns in the U.S. without detection: "We Sell Guns! No ID Required. No Background Checks. Criminals and Terrorists Welcome!"

The billboard unveiling marks the beginning of a national public awareness campaign by Stop Handgun Violence that includes a grassroots initiative featuring "wild postings" of campaign fliers designed as mock yard sale advertisements and leafletting at the Democratic and Republican Conventions in Denver and Minneapolis.

Comments

[OldSFMJT]

LeftRight has set a new standard for ‘self-imposed ignorance!’ Here are the facts.

The term traces its lineage back to the Germans in WW II and their newly-invented STURMGEWEHR 44 or StG 44. The StG 44 was an entirely new concept in military small arms, offering semi- and full-auto fire, using an intermediate-size cartridge and being of a very compact design. The term “sturmgewehr” is a German idiom which literally translates to ‘storm gun’ but which, in English, means ‘assault gun’ or ‘assault rifle.’ They created the type, they got to name it. The term has meaning, a specific definition of what an ‘assault rifle’ is! Go to Wikipedia for more details.

The term ‘assault weapon’ traces its lineage back to the 1990’s and the fevered imaginations of the anti-gun movement. They needed a handle to hang onto the increasingly popular, semi-automatic firing only, civilian-legal clones of REAL assault rifles such as the M-16 and AK-47. They needed a term that they could use to demonize & vilify them in the eyes of a largely uninformed public. While the term is catchy and sounds really scary, it has no real meaning or definition and is based on an assortment of purely cosmetic features such as a pistol grip and a bayonet lug! Because the expression has no real meaning, it is slung around completely indiscriminately be the likes of the Bradys, VPC, Cease Fire, etc.

Old SF MJT

[OldSFMJT]

Damned 250 word limit!!!

In the first line, it should read: 'The term "ASSAULT RIFLE" traces its lineage...'

In editing down to get under 250 words, I accidently pulled out a couple important pieces!!!

Old SF MJT

[Thirdpower]

LeftRight Said:"Funny, the US army uses m16s, and those are assault rifles!"

Stop man, just stop. Everytime you post, you just dig yourself a little deeper.

Right there, you show you've reached your "conclusions" based on ignorance.

One last time, I'll try to educate you.

True, The military uses M-16's. It is an "assault rifle". The M-16 is covered under the same law as machine guns because it can fire full auto or bursts (depending on model).

"Assault weapons" are SEMI-AUTO firearms (one pull of the trigger, one bullet) that LOOK LIKE military firearms in some cases. THAT is what the Assault Weapon Ban covered. NOT M-16's or real AK-47's.

The very term "assault weapon' was coined by anti-gun groups to confuse people like you who don't know any better. The Violence Policy Center even admits it.

It is another 'talking point' just like ' your gun is more likely to be used against you than a criminal ' and 'gun show loophole'.

[muffinman2]

And here's Josh's famous quote:

"Assault weapons" menacing looks, coupled with the public"s confusion over fully-automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons "anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun" can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons."" Josh Sugarmann

[LeftRight]

And since it IS an assault rifle (which you claimed that NO MILITARY IN THE WORLD USED!!!!!!!) my point is validated. It is an assault rifle, it does not belong in the hands of regular civilians. THAT HAS BEEN MY POINT THE WHOLE TIME!!! Of course, you seem to think that I am trying to bring you back to muskets and then take them away........ Sounds kinda republican to me!

[Thirdpower]

"I do support bans on assault weapons"
-LeftRight

"No military uses "assault weapons"."
-Thirdpower

"Funny, the US army uses m16s, and those are assault rifles!"
-Leftright

""Assault weapons" are SEMI-AUTO firearms"
-Thirdpower

"And since it IS an assault rifle (which you claimed that NO MILITARY IN THE WORLD USED!!!!!!!) my point is validated."
-LeftRight

So you go from talking about "assault weapons" to "assault rifles" having no clue what you're talking about.

[Thirdpower]

Thank you for making my point for me.

[muffinman2]

"At over 5,000 gun shows each year, in 32 States, criminals and terrorists are allowed to purchase firearms from private gun dealers without an ID or background check."

Yet only 2 % of gun show guns are used in crime. So, what's your problem John?

And what is a "private dealer", pray tell?

[Thirdpower]

Technically, it's only 2% of traced firearms are from gun shows.

[muffinman2]

Well, I think it's probably reasonable to assume that if the 2% applies to traced weapons, it would most likely apply to untraced weapons as well, or at least be in the ball park.

[Thirdpower]

LeftRight:

YOU may say you're not "trying to take away guns". The reality is,though, that the groups that you're supporting ARE. You actually DO support legislation that arbitrarily bans guns if you support "Assault Weapon Bans".

[LeftRight]

What group that I'm supporting????? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I"M NOT ANTI-GUN, I'm simply for some reasonable limitations based on the public good, JUST like I'm for some reasonable limitations on the FIRST amendment based on the public good!

[Thirdpower]

You have been supporting Rosenthal's groups "Stop Handgun Violence" since your opening post.

What you define as "reasonable", many others define as "gun bans".

[Thirdpower]

"No, I simply don't feel the need to arm myself when the likelihood is that I will shoot my family LONG before I will defend them from outside harm! And that's not just that I'm a psycho, that's the statistics!"

Those "statistics" are based on debunked anti-gun research. If you look at the actual "studies", they were done in high-crime areas, ignored whether the victims actually owned the firearms they were killed w/, and have changed depending on which anti-gun group is using it as a talking point at the time.

I'll ask again. What "reasonable restrictions" have been "allowed to lapse" and show what effect they actually had on the criminal element.

[vespasian1]

"JUST like I'm for some reasonable limitations on the FIRST amendment based on the public good!"

Uh oh. That's disturbing. What 1st Amendment restrictions did you have in mind?

"No, I simply don't feel the need to arm myself when the likelihood is that I will shoot my family LONG before I will defend them from outside harm! And that's not just that I'm a psycho, that's the statistics!" "Those statistics are used by pretty much EVERY law enforcement agency, since they were done BY THE US GOVERNMENT!!"

No, they do not come from the US government. Those statistics come from the Joyce Foundation- funded Kellermann Study, which has been debunked a hundred times. Even Dr. Kellermann himself admitted that his phone survey research could not be duplicated with any reasonable hope of obtaining a similar result. And where do you get the idea that those stats are used by every law enforcement agency, the Brady Campaign? Really, the notion that you would be more likeley to shoot your family is absurd. Do you really belive that you'd be likely to shoot someone in your own family? I hope not.

You may also want to keep in mind that anti-gun organizations ignore the largest organization of police officers in the world, the Fraternal Order of Police. They tend to come down on our side of these issues. Their membership dwarves the combined membership of all of the little organizations usually quoted by the anti-2A crowd.

[vespasian1]

"I've said it before and I'll say it again, I"M NOT ANTI-GUN, I'm simply for some reasonable limitations based on the public good"

For the purpose of clarity then, exactly what "reasonable limitations" do you require, that do not already exist?

[Thirdpower]

Let's reiterate:

"How Can I Train Myself for Jihad". This "manual" was a photocopied piece of tripe from now defunct "assam publications" in the UK. It had as much to do w/ real Jihad as a cookbook.

"The Pakistani store owner said he had bought handguns, rifles and a submachine gun at gun shows since 1994."

Selling "submachineguns" which require an Class III license and numerous background checks? Seems someone isn't telling the truth.

"Later, Ms. Anderson would state publicly that, had she been required to undergo a background check at the gun show, she would not have purchased the guns for the teens."

So why wasn't she indicted for straw purchases? More to the story?

Now let's ask John if he supports non-FFL access to the NICS system? Oh, wait, no he doesn't. He wants all sales to go through licensed dealers. The same dealers that he advocates civil lawsuits against to put them out of business.

And this is the alleged voice of "hunters and shooters" across America.

[Jadegold]

Google the name "Florin Krasniqi."

[Thirdpower]

"Anything you need to run a small guerrilla army, you can buy here in America. You have all the guns you need here to fight a war. M-16s. That's what the U.S. soldiers carry in Iraq. All the rifles which U.S. soldiers use in every war, you can buy them in a gun store or a gun show." -- Florin Krasniqi"

HAHAHAHAHA­HAHAHA!!!!­!

[Jadegold]

Documented fact, Roy.

Proves Sebastian lied.

[djkrlsn]

Jade--you have a well deserved reputation for being poorly informed and having extreme difficulty making coherent arguments based on facts and reason. You also seem to like reusing the same debunked arguements.

[djkrlsn]

Jade--with your background, I know that what I will find will either help the pro RKBA side or affect it not at all

[Jadegold]

But the fact is that nowhere in the US can you buy a machine gun, no questioned asked, and the idea that terrorists are going to come over here and go through the whole NFA process to get one of the few legally transferable machine guns that are still out there is absurdly laughable.

This is a textbook example of a lie.

Sebastian is counting on his audience not knowing a few things. First, one can buy any weapon via private sale--with no questions asked. Sebastian knows this but is pretending no one else does. He is pretending the only way one can obtain a machine gun (or whatever firearm) is via FFLs and an NFA process.

Second, most terrorists and criminals with IQs over 30 know this as well. So, when they purchase firearms it is usually via private sale--they don't want any paperwork trail.

Third, Sebastian also ignores the fact that there are some dirty FFLs out there. Folks who are more than willing to dispense with the paperwork or set up surrogate buyers for a fee. Sebastian would like to pretend all FFLs are like the Virgin Mary, except more virtuous.

[Thirdpower]

So prove it.

Show documented evidence of "machineguns" being illegally purchased and used in the US from originally legit sources.

We'll wait.

[vespasian1]

"Sebastian is counting on his audience not knowing a few things. First, one can buy any weapon via private sale--with no questions asked."

No Jade, THAT is a text book example of a lie, and you wrote the text book. Nowhere in this country can anyone legally purchase any automatic weapon without going through the procedure for a Class III weapons license.

You're making things up again.

[muffinman2]

"Third, Sebastian also ignores the fact that there are some dirty FFLs out there."

There are some dirty everything out there. So what?

You also fail to point out that not just any FFL can sell an M-16, Jade. There's that pesky Class 3 Weapons stuff in the way, as always.

Jade, if it's so damned easy to get machine guns in this country, why don't we ever hear about somebody shooting up a mall with one?

BTW, thanks for taking the time off from the Middle Atlantic Society of Comet Watchers, to be here with us today.

[MajorTom125]

"Third, Sebastian also ignores the fact that there are some dirty FFLs out there. Folks who are more than willing to dispense with the paperwork or set up surrogate buyers for a fee. Sebastian would like to pretend all FFLs are like the Virgin Mary, except more virtuous."

Nor are these people nearly as numerous as you would have people believe. How many FFL holders do you think are willing to go to Federal Prison for 10 years, pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and costs, and lose their means of livlihood? I'll wager not many.

Statements like this hold no water. You are going to need some legitimate numbers. Good luck.

[molonlabe]

"A FedEx cargo handler stole 146 handguns from the Monmouth County facility where he worked and enlisted a friend to help sell the weapons at public housing projects in Jersey City and on the streets of Newark and East Orange, federal investigators said Tuesday.

Federal agents are now trying to trace dozens of the stolen weapons, many of which they said were sold for between $300 and $500 each or traded for drugs.

The two suspects, Patrick Dolan, 28, of Keyport and John Sozomenou, 32, of Aberdeen, surrendered at federal district court in Newark Tuesday. U.S. Magistrate Judge Patty Shwartz ordered them both released on $200,000 bond.

They were charged with conspiracy to possess and sell stolen firearms AND FACE UP TO FIVE YEARS IN PRISON (emphasis mine) and a $250,000 fine, said Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Gribko, who is prosecuting the case.

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/topstories/index.ssf/2008/08/fedex_staffer_held_in_theft_of.html

But remember folks, it's that damn gun show loophole putting all those guns on our streets.

Wanna take any wagers on how long the criminals will actually serve? Maybe a plea bargain?

[Mark0]

"On April 20, 1999, in the deadliest High school shooting in United States history in Littleton Colorado, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold procured two shotguns, an assault rifle and a TEC-9 assault pistol and shot 26 students, killing 13 of them before turning the guns on themselves."


I find it rather remarkable that a person would list the assailants weapons and exclude the propane and pipe bombs, reportedly numbering as many as ninteen, that the Columbine assailants also possessed and attempted to use:

"the pair met near Harris' car and armed two 20 pound (9 kg) propane bombs before entering the cafeteria a few minutes before the "A" lunch shift began and placed the duffel bags carrying the bombs inside."

"The bombs had enough explosive power to destroy the entire cafeteria and bring the library above crashing down. Each shooter then returned to his car to wait until the bombs exploded."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre


Apparently it is more fashionable to frame the whole story as just another school shooting amidst a cry for gun control (specifically a gun control method which would have had no effect on the outcome of the Columbine tragedy) than it is to call it what it really was: a failed bombing.

Perhaps equating terrorists with gun shows is more emotionally evocative than bringing attention to other much more destructive devices terrorists have at their disposal. How unfortunate.

[LeftRight]

"...that the Columbine assailants also possessed and attempted to use..." key word in this sentence is attempted. The fact is that they DID use all the guns. They either didn't try, or failed in their attempts to use explosives!

[Thirdpower]

LeftRight:

You say that you don't oppose firearm ownership. Yet you support people like Rosenthal et al who DO oppose firearm ownership in their actions as well as most of their words. Your very first response was to denigrate opposition to his proposed measures and allegations.

[djkrlsn]

My problem with many of the gun control supporters is that many of them also are complaining about how the Bush administration is violating their rights in other areas.

[molonlabe]

Oh boy. Rosenthal is at it again. Maybe he didn't see this:

Predominately handguns were used in the assaults on officers and all but one were obtained illegally, usually in street transactions or in thefts. In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study was obtained from gun shows. What was available “was the overriding factor in weapon choice,” the report says. Only 1 offender hand-picked a particular gun “because he felt it would do the most damage to a human being.”

Researcher Davis, in a presentation and discussion for the International Assn. of Chiefs of Police, noted that none of the attackers interviewed was “hindered by any law--federal, state or local--that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws.”

http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/force-science/articles/1243754/

Quick, sheeple! Look away from the truth and focus your attention on Mr Rosenthal or you may stray from the herd!!!

[muffinman2]

I forgot the link to the PA gun store robbery story. Oops.

http://tinyurl.com/5h384h

[muffinman2]

"At over 5,000 gun shows each year, in 32 States, criminals and terrorists are allowed to purchase firearms from private gun dealers"

And according to the FBI, only about 2% of guns used in crimes come from gun shows. But then, the anti-rights movement has never been too keen on research, or any info that wasn't funded by the Joyce Foundation.

John, instead of trying to scare people with tired and false talking points that you lifted from the Brady Campaign (Helmke tried this same BS a few months ago), how about advocating for punishing violent criminals to the full extent of the law?

You may have heard about a bunch of young felons who recently robbed a gun store in Delaware Co. Pennsylvania, just outside of Philly. The ring-leader was convicted of attempted murder and weapons violations in 2005, and was put on PROBATION!!!!

This particular miscreant is from Philly. And Hizzonner the Mayor (Nutter) wonders why he has such a violent crime problem on his hands. Of course. Nutter is calling for more gun control, but I think he's doing it out of political correctnes, and a desire for a second term. I think he's intelligent enough to know that it's not going to suddenly have an effect on crime.

[deepintheheartoftejas]

Another person trying to get us to sell out constitutional rights by bringing up the specter of terrorism. You should go to work for the Bush administration, Joel!

[djkrlsn]

That has bugged me for a good while--many gun control supporters are the same people who are unhappy about the Patriot Act and FISA claiming these bills are a violation of the BOR.

[RedneckDem]

Go to a gun show, approach private gun dealer. Look at handguns and talk about crime with dealer. Casually mention that you would like something more powerful, but say the libs wont allow it. Gun dealer sizes you up, gives you the nudge, nudge, wink wink. Tells his beautiful wife (NOT) to watch the display and asks you to meet him at lot C in 5 minutes. You meet and follow him to the trailer he towed to the show. He goes over the security features of the trailer and then asks you inside. Then dealer moves some stuff around and viola, heres some fully automatic machine guns for ya. Cash only though.... happens more than you think...
Theres lots of unregistered, undocumented weapons out there and just as many people who will sell them to you under the table. How will the gun shows be able to explain the inevitable when someone sells weapons to terrorists from a contact at a gun show. Won't the NRA be complicit in a terrorist attack at that point, as well as the "private" dealer and the gun show itself? Since it hasn't happened yet (with swarthy middle eastern men), does that mean it ok to continue the risk?

[BluePimpernel]

LOL... You have one heck of a vivid imagination.

[Thirdpower]

It's called projection.

[djkrlsn]

I don't know about the rest of the country--but here in California, if someone tries to sell you a firearm out of their vehicle at a gunshow--that person is a cop or an ATF agent, not a gun dealer.

[muffinman2]

"He goes over the security features of the trailer and then asks you inside. Then dealer moves some stuff around and viola, heres some fully automatic machine guns for ya. Cash only though.... happens more than you think..."

What utter, Bradybot nonsense. If it happens so often, then I'm sure you'll be happy to cite an example. Just one will do, but we ain't holdin' our breath.

I love how you guys just pull this stuff out of the air.

[OldSFMJT]

Actually, these guys pull this stuff from a little farther - ehhh - 'south!'

[Mark0]

"Then dealer moves some stuff around and viola, heres some fully automatic machine guns for ya. Cash only though.... happens more than you think..."

By your own logic: this strawman machinegun dealer, who apparently has no compunctions about possessing, transporting, and selling illegal merchandise, will be compelled to perform the NICS background check on the purchaser in order to make absolutely sure said straw purchaser is, in fact, legal to take possession of a firearm that is 100% illegal to possess?

And the seller will be compelled by law to perform this background check why?
Because it is the law?

Let's see here:
It is already illegal to assemble a non-registered automatic firearm.
It is already illegal to possess a non-registered automatic firearm.
It is already illegal to transfer an automatic firearm except through Federal Class III methods (which require that firearm to be previosly registered).
There are also conspiracy laws that can be invoked in case the above charges are not deterrent enough.

But your strawman seller had no problems breaking any of those laws.
And you want people to believe that one more law.....just one more law..... requiring the seller to perform a background check is going to stop your described scenario from taking place?

[Mark0]

Every law that applies at any place or time outside of a gun show, applies equally within a gunshow.

Any legal private firearm transfer that could take place at a gun show could also legally take place away form the gun show.

You realize that there is nothing magic about a gun show, right?