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John Shore

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'Hellbound?' Wins the Debate

Posted: 09/25/2012 1:17 pm

Right off the bat let me confess that what I find irresistibly appealing about Kevin Miller's new documentary Hellbound? is that I was supposed to be in it. At the time Miller was planning his movie my blog posts on hell were hotter than Satan's sauna. (Those pieces have since been collected into Hell, NO! Extinguishing Christian Hellfire, a short e-book that via Nook is its regular price of $4.99, but which Amazon Kindle now has on sale for $2.99. It does not displease me that Hell NO! is listed on the resource page of the Hellbound? website.) 2012-09-24-Hellbound.jpgAlas, by the time my scheduled shoot came around Miller thought that he already had enough footage for his movie, a shocking miscalculation that I can't help but believe doomed "Hellbound?" to be half as good as it might have been otherwise.

Stupid Kevin Miller. What does he know about making documentaries, anyway?

Quite a bit, as it turns out.

The bottom line on "Hellbound?" is that it's a smorgasbord of astute authors, interesting intellectuals, thoughtful theologians and rabid white trash talking about hell. (The movie's opening sequence features a clutch of Fred Phelps' Westboro Baptist Church members at the site of 9/11, vociferously screaming, "Thank God for September 11! Whoo-hoo!" and jauntily waving their trademark colorful signs proclaiming GOD'S WRATH = 9-11; THANK GOD FOR 9-11; FIRE FIGHTERS IN HELL; SOLDIERS DIE FOR FAG MARRIAGE and so on. Subsequently throughout "Hellbound?" we are subjected to watching Kevin try to reason with Shirley Lynn Phelps-Roper, the leader of the protesting Westboronians, which is like watching a dance instructor trying to teach a great white shark how to waltz.

"Hellbound?" teaches us that generally speaking there are two views of hell: that it's real and that it's not. Joining the Westboronians in defending the reality of hell are the likes of bloggers Kevin DeYoung and Justin Taylor (who at the time of the movie's filming were making waves by roundly criticizing Rob Bell's then-just-released sensation "Love Wins"), and most notably the poster boy for the Christ Had Balls Like Boulders movement, Mark Driscoll, the only Christian in the world scarier than Shirley Lynn Phelps-Roper.

Making the case for hell not being real are a wide array of thoughtful and articulate people, the stand-outs of which include the brilliant and infectiously effervescent Greg Boyd, and most especially Frank Schaeffer, whom I think delivers this movie's money quote:

Evangelicalism [by which he means reactionary, conservative evangelicalism] is to America what the Pharisees were in ancient Israel. These guys wreak vengeance on the people who bring the good news of a loving God who cares less about theology than the content of your character. Because in essence that message puts the gatekeepers out of a job.

Adding flavor to the nay-sayers of hell are members of heavy/death/black/ulto-destructo metal bands such as Gwar, Mayhem, Deicide and Morbid Angel, fellows who, come Halloween, must greatly enjoy dressing up as insurance salesmen and high school math teachers. (Reasoning against hell is also Chad Holtz, who now believes in hell again. Whereas I still don't believe in hell. But whatever, Kevin Miller.)

"Hellbound?" is a vitally important movie. More Christians than you can shake a trident at are convinced that to believe in a literal hell is more Christian than to not: that hell as a place of eternal torment is clearly biblical and something in which Christians have always believed. But that is not true. As "Hellbound?" makes so perfectly clear, there is equal scriptural support for the radically differing models of hell known as Eternal Torment (good people: heaven; upon death bad people and all non-Christians: eternally barbecued), Annihilationism (the lucky make it into heaven; everyone else is instantly vaporized into nothingness -- but at least aren't eternally tormented) and Universalism (eventually through Christ everyone is redeemed and ushered through the Pearly Gates).

BEHOLD! this screen-save from the movie:

2012-09-24-theories.jpg

At different times in history each of these theories of hell has enjoyed prominence; it's just that the one off which it's possible to make the most money, since it can be used to instill deathly fear, has now become so dominant that the other two are widely considered to be, of all things, less Christian. But that's absurd. It's like saying that because today is Monday Friday and Saturday don't exist. But Friday and Saturday do exist. They always have. And it's a certainty that they will come around again.

If you are a Christian harboring the idea that a literal hell is incompatible with an all-loving and all-powerful God, and would like ironclad evidence and testimony from a wide variety of sources and experts in support of that idea, then you must see "Hellbound?" You will come away from the movie knowing two things: that your instincts about hell are not just morally but biblically right, and that the day is dawning when more Christians than not will agree with you.

'Hellbound?' opens this weekend in Pasadena, Orange County, San Diego and Grand Rapids. Visit hellboundthemovie.com for details on theaters, etc. The film's director and writer Kevin Miller will be doing a Q&A in Pasadena on Sept. 28, Orange County on Sept. 29, and San Diego Sept. 30. I have assured Miller that at his San Diego appearance I will keep my heckling to something reasonably near the minimum.

 
 
 

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Meop79
01:43 AM on 11/02/2012
Interesting... I have to take issue with the chart of verses supposedly supporting one side or another though. Too many of these verses are being taken out of context, where even reading the verses to either side of them shows they actually mean the exact opposite of what they are being portrayed as.

Dan 12:2, Phil 2:9-11, 1 Tim 2:4, Titus 2:11, these verses doesn't reflect which one of these views is right, any of them could be and these still be true.

Acts 3:21 is being misinterpreted and also isn't speaking to this question of the saved v/s the lost. I don't think the 1 Corinthians text is saying what they're implying either but that's more debatable. The 2Cr 5:19 text is definitely not saying what they're implying just look at the next verse 2Cr 5:20. If all were to be saved in the end then there's no need to beg them to convert. Before you think 1 John 2:2 supports Universalism read the rest of the chapter, especially 1Jo 2:17 and 2:26, there's no need to worry about being deceived if everyone's being saved and no point in worrying about sin passing away and sinners with it if everyone is made perfect. 2 Peter 3:9 is being taken out of context read the whole chapter especially verses 7 & 10, both of which point to Annihilationism.

Matt 7:13, Matt 10:28, Matt 13: 38-50, These verses also fit better with annihilationist view of hell.
09:56 PM on 10/04/2012
'hellbound wins the debate'? huh? I miss something? The majority of Christians do READ the Bible and know that there are a lot of passages talking about the reality of hell. This author is just showing that scripture is true. Scripture states that in latter days, more and more heresies will be preached and strange doctrines- will pop up .Men and women are claming to have discovered sometning everyone else just couldnt see until THEY happened to come upon it (demonstrating to us their superiority in discovering it, of course). That shows that their are pride fueled people.

There is a heaven that God created for humans that accept his Son and a hell for those who reject him. People who reject God (the Son and therefore according to Jesus, are also rejecting the Father) are saying they dont want to be around him for eternity.Why would God force them into something they find so distasteful? . The last place Christopher Hitchens wanted to be was in heaven with Jesus.
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DianaLynn1967
It's a great life if you don't weaken!
02:29 PM on 10/31/2012
"The last place Christopher Hitchens wanted to be was in heaven with Jesus." That's because he didn't know Jesus and I'm not 100% sure that he deserves blame for that. Those of us who call ourselves "Christians" have not necessarily done the best job in the world of being the body of Christ. I believe God loves Christopher Hitchens as much as s/he loves any of us and thus I believe Christopher Hitchens is saved. He may have to go through some tough times, but he is saved.
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Watching rock grow
FE = Iron, and Female = Iron Male :)
08:09 AM on 09/29/2012
Years ago, I came to the realization that much of the Bible’s and more so theological teachings on hell resembled the judgment of ancient Egyptians that predate writing. In its teachings, upon death one’s mummy faced a series of adventures just to make it to Judgment. The better you knew the intricate spells to succeed in this the more secure you were to avoid eternal torment. Hence, the Book of the Dead that taught the how to survive. Judaism teaches everyone faces Judgment, not the lucky ones escaping eternal torment.

Once you arrived at the Egyptian Judgment, you face the King of Gods, Maat, and Amemait, from your mummy animation in the hall. Your heart was taken and laid upon the scales; if you passed, it was returned to your mummy and you passed into heaven. If you did not pass, Amemait ate your heart and you were annihilated.

From the time of Cleopatra VII of Egypt, there had been a theological war between Ancient Egypt and Rome and their differing POV of life after death. Christian theology dependence of quotes from the Gospels of Christ, and his time (just a bit later than Cleopatra’s) predominate the collection while leading to the later authors advocating for universalism. Especially considering that, Isis the magical mother victorious of life over death, rose out of Roman occupied Egypt and travelled across the evil world of Imperial Rome only to submit later to the rule of Christ.
01:12 AM on 09/27/2012
Great stuff! Look forward to this coming to a theater near you.
In meantime, for more on the concept of Hell re-considered, check out:
http://www.jesustheheresy.com/hellreconsidered.html
10:17 PM on 09/26/2012
thankfully most Chrsitians havent fallen into the error that the person writing this article professes
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DianaLynn1967
It's a great life if you don't weaken!
12:35 AM on 09/29/2012
(1) It is God's redemptive purpose for the world (and therefore his will) to reconcile all sinners (all people) to himself.
(2) It is within God's power to achieve his redemptive purpose for the world.
(3) Some sinners (people) will never be reconciled to God, and God will therefore either consign them to a place of eternal punishment, from which there is no hope of escape, or put them out of existence altogether.

It is logically impossible for all three of the above statements to be true. If God is both willing and able to reconcile with all humanity, then by definition this reconciliation is bound to happen. If some people end up not being reconciled with God, it is either because God is unwilling to reconcile with all people, or is unable. Since I believe God is willing and able to reconcile with all people, I believe #3 is false.

The three statements above are direct quotes from Thomas Talbott's "The Inescapable Love of God," a book I highly recommend.
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Nigel Goodnow
01:04 AM on 09/30/2012
The one where the difficulty occurs is in number 2. Is it within God's power? Some would argue that making a god-hating person a god-loving person, contrary to that person's will, would itself be an evil, and God cannot commit an evil regardless of his level of omnipotence. Don't know if Talbott deals with this, though it would surprise me a little if he didn't, so I will check him out.
05:21 PM on 10/01/2012
People have free will.That is demonstrated in Genesis chapter 2 and 3. it wasnt God's will that creation disobey him--but they did and lost the gift he gave them, so he gave a new way of reconciliation for all but didnt force people to recieve it  (its through Jesus).  His will and  his desire and plan for each individual is a reciprpocal, loving relationship with Him ending in eternal life in heaven -- but each person is allowed to decide to accept or reject it.   God does not force people to do  things. He didnt make robots, either. He does things or allow events to happen at certain points to encourage people to decided a particuilar way, that is, to choose him ( He draws them) --leading a horse to water -- but he does not force them to drink. That would not even qualify as true repentance that leads to salvation, because true repentance comes from tthe heart -  no coersion. As well,   real love is not a thing a person can truely  give under coersion. We are not preprogramned robots. While God could have created humans in such a way that they would all do what he said 100% of the time,  that is not how he happened to make people as you can see when you look all around you and at yourself.  He endowed us with free will.
 
Maybe youre a Calvanist.
 
Ive read and studied and shared the entire Bible beginning to end, for many years. So I am coming from the original source in conjunction with the Holy Spirit who
researcher
researcher
05:17 AM on 09/26/2012
The evidence reveals that there is no eternal hell as taught by the Christians. Consciousness is the stuff of life and if one’s consciousness is very hateful and selfish then that person as a soul will have to work through their inner self-judgments.

Hades might be a better term but even that expression is misleading.

Like attracts like on the other side so someone full of hate and fear will attract those that are also full of hate and fear. We see this like attract like in political parties.

As I have stated often there are two places not to look for evidence into these mysteries of life. Religion and scientific materialism. Both have agendas to protect at all costs.

To put it simply the Hitler’s of the world don’t go to paradise but neither do they go to an eternal hellfire.

The good news is that the Christian pews are clearing out and fewer children will be taught such fear and hellfire nonsense that may affect them adversely for the rest of their lives. I.e. our prisons are overflowing with such fear and self-judgments.

How a parent can allow religious leaders to teach their children such fearful things tells us much about the human ego and how beliefs overwhelm evidence 99.9999% of the time. Think for one moment how the belief that one can spend eternity burning in a hell fire and how that could have a horrible affect on a child’s mind.
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Asmodean1
Truth is only true if based on facts.
10:13 AM on 09/26/2012
I love your post but.... Science does not have a 'agenda" to protect. Not in any whay shape or form. religion and its agenda is obvious. Science is just looking for factual answers for questions based on reality. I am thinking this could have been your meaning, but don't know. Did you mean science has the "agenda of scientific truth" - That would be fact based? Just curious.
10:10 PM on 09/26/2012
You make some statement about hell based on 'research' that you do not even mention. The place one looks for information on this spiritual topic is the Bible. Scripture says over and over that there is a hell. Jesus himself is quoted as saying so in numerous places in the gospels.
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suebeedue
07:54 AM on 10/03/2012
Actually, Jesus only spoke in illustrations, so where Jesus spoke of the rich man and Lazarus is not a description of hell, but is an illustration of the reversal of conditions of two classes of people, the false religious leaders who loved money more than their flock they were supposed to care for and the lowly, humble people whom they abused. (Luke 16:14, 18-31)
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gal416
is a Bible verse † † †
01:28 AM on 09/26/2012
In hell, everybody smokes.
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iLdoRight
Encouraging The Rightest Rightness
12:47 AM on 09/26/2012
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU !
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libwingoflibwing
Leftist, Christian, Non-Violent Revolutionary
08:30 PM on 09/25/2012
I'm surprised the film put Romans 5:21 in the annihilation column when to me it is clearly part of a universalist passage. Paul is saying here that all became sinners and died in Adam, but all are saved from sin and made alive in the second Adam, Christ. That's universalism.
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gracealone
12:22 PM on 09/26/2012
Nope, it belongs in neither category. Nowhere in the text does it say that ALL receive eternal life. Also, it is helpful to remember verses do not stand in isolation out of context. One can make the Bible say anything with that method. Check out Romans 6 where it discusses being baptized into Christ and His death (3) and being buried with Him through baptism into death and being raised to walk in newness of life.
01:20 AM on 09/27/2012
What's especially intriguing is the final (well worn) verse of the chapter stating: "For the wages of since death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
What is this is not an either / or but rather a sequential statement? In other words, we all die because of our sin (even our righteousness is as filthy rags). Then, after dying we all experience the gift of eternal life (for all - including the good, the bad and the ugly).
06:19 PM on 09/25/2012
Where does the Bible say that God is all loving...Jesus said, "...fear him who after killling the body has the power to cast you into hell..yes, fear him." (Luke 12:4-5) what do you do with that one??>..actually the Bible says that God is love, a spirit, and a consuming fire...you could look it up...so take your pick...actually sheeple all believe what they perceive and are given...it must all be God's will of course as there can be no other....the generator, operator, destroyer...the real trinity...google Theofatalism for details...or not...
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budalla
virum stultum in furiosum mundi
02:51 PM on 09/25/2012
Hell, like the Greek concept of Hades, and other cultures before the birth of Christ, was not necessarily a bad place, it was just where you or your soul went when you died. If you were particularly blessed, maybe the gods or God would take you to the realm of God or the gods.

At some point some religions, like the growing cult of Christ, needed a reason to keep people in line. Eternal life as promised was nice, but if you turned away, or sinned, the existing alternative was pretty bland, but doable for many people. Enter a Hell of damnation and torment, eternally so.

And the sins that one could commit to get there started to grow. The only real problem with this was that life itself was pretty bad for most people. So hell had to be much, much worse than even life could provide.

Hell is, unfortunately, a collection of ideas and creations designed to scare people into submission, created by people who may have meant well, but instead created evil.
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Michael W Camp
Author of Confessions of a Bible Thumper
02:51 PM on 09/25/2012
Great overview of the movie, John. I haven't seen it yet, but Kevin Miller told me Robin Parry is one of their "anchor interviews," that is beyond Boyd and Schaeffer, provides some of the linguistic and historical facts about Greek terms and concepts that have been erroneously translated as "hell" or "eternal punishment." Arguments like his, are the only way to convince biblicists (at least those who are open minded enough), to rethink this dreadful doctrine. When one looks carefully, hell is not biblical! Keep up the good work.
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John Shore
Author of "UNFAIR"
03:06 PM on 09/25/2012
You know, it's a shame I didn't work Robin Parry into my review; he was brilliant. So thank you for mentioning him here. I haven't read it, but it's clear from the movie how outstanding must be his book, "The Evangelical Universalist."
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Michael W Camp
Author of Confessions of a Bible Thumper
03:49 PM on 09/25/2012
Yes, I cite him extensively in my book in my chapters on the hell debate. Parry's is one of the best arguing from a "biblical" perspective, along with Thomas Talbott's (The Inescapable Love of God) and Julie Ferwerda's (Raising Hell). I'm sure yours is good too. :-)
10:16 PM on 09/26/2012
Why does anyone listen to you at all.Oh--its an "itching ears" thing. Your views are so wack-a-doodle and outside of sound Christian doctrine that you should be posting to some Pagan forum because that is what you are professing

In this sense what 'preach is in the BIble.


2 Tim:42-4
" 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths"
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gracealone
12:27 PM on 09/26/2012
Regarding Schaeffers quote:

"These guys wreak vengeance on the people who bring the good news of a loving God who cares less about theology than the content of your character. "

Have you delved into the implications of this statement? Look what the Bible has to say about our character apart from the righteousness of Christ. It is anything but good news.
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DianaLynn1967
It's a great life if you don't weaken!
02:58 PM on 10/31/2012
True. Yet God loves us anyway. Yes, even us.
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Marc Bartkowiak
Follow the US Constitution- be progressive!
01:58 PM on 09/25/2012
Though not Christian, I, too, have always questioned the view that hell is real but compatible with a god that loves all the people he created in his image.
It is good to see advocacy of the opposing images of what hell actually might be or not be, but where you see the other ideas coming back around in their due time, Mr. Shore, I am just left with more questions from it, as it is just three more examples for the list of how the Bible contradicts itself repeatedly yet people are somehow supposed to follow all those different views and traditions.

And, though I'm sure it's not exactly the purpose of the movie placing these people in it, it is good to see exposure of the fact that religion does not matter when it comes to extremists, they are always dangerous:
"The movie's opening sequence features a clutch of Fred Phelps' Westboro Baptist Church members at the site of 9/11, vociferously screaming, 'Thank God for September 11! Whoo-hoo!' "
Those words and signs could have been placed in hands and mouths halfway around the world on 9/12/2001 and fit right in.
07:44 PM on 09/27/2012
Using Fred Phelps nutty church--that claims Obama is the Anti-Christ, is hardly the benchmark to be trotting out for one to measure a belief in hell against. They want everyone but themselves to go there and have zero compassion or heart for people because they are full of pride (and so in danger of the place they keep teling others they are going to). Find a bit more humble bunch to use to compare and constrast
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Marc Bartkowiak
Follow the US Constitution- be progressive!
09:56 AM on 09/28/2012
So Pat Robertson and Billy Graham and the Vatican are all wonderful examples of Christian love and charity then?