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John Witte Jr.

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Lift High the Cross? Religion In Public Spaces

Posted: 03/27/11 10:11 PM ET

The European Court of Human Rights has just upheld Italy's policy of displaying crucifixes in its public school classrooms. In Lautsi v. Italy, an atheistic mother of two public school children challenged this policy, in place since 1924. After losing in the Italian courts, she appealed to the European Court of Human Rights, arguing that the presence of these crucifixes in public schools violated her and her children's rights to religious freedom and to a secular education guaranteed by the European Convention on Human Rights. On Nov. 3, 2009, an unanimous seven-judge chamber of the European Court held for Ms. Lautsi. On March 18, the Grand Chamber reversed and held 15-2 in favor of Italy.

The Court stated clearly that the crucifix is a religious symbol, that atheism is a protected religious belief and that public schools must be religiously neutral. But the Court held that a "passive display" of a crucifix in a public school classroom was no violation of religious freedom -- particularly when students of all faiths were welcome in public schools and free to wear their own religious symbols. The Court held further that Italy's policy of displaying only the crucifix was no violation of religious neutrality, but an acceptable reflection of its majoritarian Catholic culture. With European nations widely divided on whether and where to display various religious symbols, the Court concluded that Italy must be granted a "margin of appreciation" to decide for itself how and where to maintain its Christian traditions in school.

The Lautsi case echoes many familiar arguments that the United States Supreme Court has used over the past three decades to maintain traditional displays of crèches, crosses and Decalogues on government property. While not entirely convergent in their religious symbolism cases, the American and European high courts now hold six teachings in common.

First, tradition counts in these cases. In American courts, older religious displays tend to fare better than newer displays. The longstanding customary presence of a religious symbol in public life eventually renders it not only acceptable but indispensable to defining who we are as a people. In Lautsi, Judge Bonello put this argument strongly in his concurrence: "A court of human rights cannot allow itself to suffer from historical Alzheimer's. It has no right to disregard the cultural continuum of a nation's flow through time, nor to ignore what, over the centuries, has served to mould and define the profile of a people."

Second, religious symbols often have redeeming cultural value. American courts have long recognized that a Decalogue is not only a religious commandment but also a common moral code, that a cross is not only a Christian symbol, but also a poignant memorial to military sacrifice. When passively and properly displayed, the meaning of a symbol can be left in the eye of the beholder -- a sort of free market hermeneutic. The Lautsi court echoed this logic. While recognizing the crucifix as religious in origin, the Court accepted Italy's argument that "the crucifix also symbolized the principles and values" of liberty, equality and fraternity that "formed the foundation of democracy" and human rights in Italy and well beyond.

Third, local values deserve some deference. In America, the doctrine of federalism requires federal courts to defer to the practices and policies of individual states, unless there are clear violations of federal constitutional rights to free exercise and no establishment of religion. The Supreme Court has used this doctrine to uphold the passive display of crosses and Decalogues on state capitol grounds. The Lautsi Court uses the European "margin of appreciation" doctrine in much the same way. Lacking European consensus on public displays of religion and finding no coerced religious practice or indoctrination in this case, the Court left Italy to decide for itself how to balance the religious symbolism of its Catholic majority and the religious freedom and education rights of its atheistic minorities.

Fourth, religious freedom does not require the secularization of society. The United States Supreme Court became famous for its image of a "high and impregnable wall of separation between church and state," that left religion hermetically sealed from political life and public institutions. But the reality today is that the Court has abandoned much of its strict separatism and now allows religious and non-religious parties alike to engage in peaceable public activities, even in public schools. The European Court of Human Rights likewise became famous for promoting French-style laïcité in public schools and public life, striking down Muslim headscarves and other religious symbols as contrary to the democratic "message of tolerance, respect for others, and equality and non-discrimination." Lautsi suggests a new policy that respects the rights of private religious and secular groups alike to express their views, but allows government to reflect democratically the traditional religious views of its majority.

Fifth, religious freedom does not give a minority a heckler's veto over majoritarian policies. Until recently, American courts allowed taxpayers to challenge any law touching religion even if it caused them no real personal injury. This effectively gave secularists a "veto" over sundry laws and policies on religion -- however old, common or popular those laws might be. The Supreme Court has now tightened its standing rules considerably, forcing parties to make their cases for legal reform in the legislatures and to seek individual exemptions from policies that violate their beliefs. Lautsi holds similarly. It recognizes that while the crucifix may cause offense to Ms. Lautsi, it represents the cherished cultural values of millions of others, who in turn are offended by her views. But personal offense cannot be a ground for censorship. Freedom of religion and expression requires that all views be heard in public life.

Finally, religious symbolism cases are serious business. It's easy to be cynical about these cases -- treating them as much ado about nothing, or as expensive hobbyhorses for cultural killjoys or public interest litigants to ride. But that view underestimates the extraordinary luxury we now enjoy in the West to be able to fight our cultural contests over religious symbols in our courts and academies, rather than on our streets and battlefields. In centuries past in the West -- and in many regions of the world still today -- disputes over religious symbols often lead to violence, sometimes to all-out warfare. Far more is at stake in these cases than the fate of a couple of pieces of wood nailed together. These cases are essential forums to work through our deep cultural differences and to sort out peaceably which traditions and practices should continue and which should change.

John Witte Jr. is Director of the Center for the Study of Law and Religion at Emory University in Atlanta, Ga.

 
The European Court of Human Rights has just upheld Italy's policy of displaying crucifixes in its public school classrooms. In Lautsi v. Italy, an atheistic mother of two public school children challe...
The European Court of Human Rights has just upheld Italy's policy of displaying crucifixes in its public school classrooms. In Lautsi v. Italy, an atheistic mother of two public school children challe...
 
 
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10:41 PM on 03/31/2011
Many readers here may find it interesting to know that the highest point (by law) in the most powerful city in the most successful nation in the world which is the top of the Washington monument in Washington DC has the words Laus Deo inscribed on its Eastern face to greet the sun each and every morning. Laus Deo means, in praise of God. Equally interesting is the fact that the Washington Monument is also located at the absolute center of a Crucifix having the Lincoln Memorial, the Capitol Building, the Jefferson Memorial, and the White House located at the ends of the four arms of the cross. One more interesting fact is that the cornerstone of the Washington monument contains, among other things, a Holy Bible. Of course the Washington Monument was erected in honor of the first President of our country and one of its Founding Fathers, George Washington, a man of faith in God.
ThinkCreeps
Seriously, it's time.
05:05 PM on 04/01/2011
You may find it more enlightening to go and read the inside of the jefferson memorial, which commemorates an altogether smarter cookie.
09:39 PM on 04/04/2011
and you might be surprised, that it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not one should believe in religion. Instead, it had everything to do with trying to force religion, or no religion, upon others.
05:43 PM on 03/31/2011
Religion is about power.

Putting a relgious symbol in a place, is a statement of that power.
ThinkCreeps
Seriously, it's time.
04:46 AM on 04/01/2011
It is, but fortunately now it is an empty statement.

The masses are now happily reading textbooks and using birth control with no regard for the superstitious authorities.
ThinkCreeps
Seriously, it's time.
11:35 AM on 03/31/2011
It's useful to have a symbol of intellectual darkness hanging a classroom - it focusses the mind on why the activities within are so important, and on the dire consequences of the failure of education.
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Daleri Rileda
Jungle Jargon
04:19 AM on 03/30/2011
Symbols of hope regarded as symbols of oppression.

It is too bad that the embodiment of a religion is in a symbol rather than a person.

The most productive thing to a society is a person that lives the belief rather than hoping for magic from a symbol.
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head...
09:24 AM on 03/30/2011
Unfortunately, Daleri, that symbol *is* one of oppression, to very many people. Trying to force people to regard it otherwise is just backwards. History, and especially just lately, the Christian Right, have seen to that.

That's what *happens* when you wage a 'culture war' against your fellow citizens and humans, particularly with government power, and against the rights and human dignity of others.
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Daleri Rileda
Jungle Jargon
09:50 PM on 03/30/2011
So you have issues with us speaking up and with the democratic process.

Even the Bible says everyone is to have a chance to speak.
12:11 AM on 03/31/2011
The question is, who's waging the war, it's not the average Christian, that's for sure (well, from NJ anyway). I thing Daleri has a great point, it's more productive to "walk the walk".
09:03 AM on 03/31/2011
Religious symbols become symbols of oppression in some, but not all societies.
I'm in the UK, which is a very mixed society regarding religion, with somewhere between 30% to 50% atheists/agnostics (depending which survey you read). Religions have long since lost the power they once had to be oppressive, so religious symbols in public buildings (there aren't many, and they are mostly old) are no big deal here.
In much of the US it seems (from what I read in the media, on internet forums, etc) it is very different, an aggressive form of Christianity which really does seem oppressive to non-believers and followers of other religions, so much more reason for these minorities in the US to 'fight back' and keep religious symbols out of public spaces.
I suggest you read some of the comments in the US news media about atheist billboards in the US. Some believers go mental about them, despite the profusion of religious billboards in the same cities. It seems they only want free speech for their side.
09:43 PM on 04/04/2011
I think the main problem with the billboards, is that some of them tend to be aggressive towards others religions.
01:23 AM on 03/29/2011
Reading through the comments here, I think many people are making the mistake of trying to apply American culture, laws, and beliefs to Italian culture, laws, and beliefs. They are VERY different and are something that should be respected. The cross, and Catholicism in general, is a very large part of Italian culture. To ignore such a fact would be ignorance. Since the schools are displaying the crosses as a symbol of the culture of Italy, as well as the Catholicism, and not indoctrinating the students, I think it is acceptable for them. In the U.S., I do not think such a thing would be acceptable. I'm saying this as someone who's family is still in Italy and is a devout Roman Catholic.
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02:20 PM on 03/29/2011
This was exactly what I was thinking while reading this post.
Mr. Witte seems to find a correlation between Italian public schools and American public schools.
I am someone who remembers praying in public school and when we stopped praying.
My suburban Boston classroom had children literally from all over the world in it (Russia, Indonesia, Japan for instance).
Things grow a lot more comfortable when we finally stopped saying The Lord's Prayer every day.
There may be a time and a place for religion but our public schools are not it.
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diversityreport
Editor American Diversity Report
04:43 PM on 04/01/2011
I came to this country the year that the law changed forcing The Lord's Prayer on us non- Christian public school students. My mother's response was that the US was the greatest nation on the earth because it granted religious freedom to all and did not insist that there be a public declaration that some faiths were inferior. The continued insistence that Christianity, specifically the Protestant version of Christianity, is superior to every other faith does not do justice to freedom of religion.
06:48 PM on 03/29/2011
Your reasoning, and that of the European Court, are refelective of the U.S. Supreme Court decision in SUMMUM v. PLEASANT GROVE CITY where, in a unanimous decision, the Court said the City could elect to display the 10 commandments as part of an outdoor museum and refuse to display a list of religious tenets of a small group that didn't even live in the City because the 10 commandments had been a notable part of the City's history. Religious symbols with cultural or historic significance can be displayed without establishing religion.
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UnderTheHedgeWeGo
Show me some evidence.
07:23 PM on 03/31/2011
If these symbols are such a part of the community they can be displayed by a private party in the community. The religious symbols are historically important? Says who? In this case it is a government official who has no business deciding whether or not religion in general (and which religion specifically) is "important". If a specific religious belief is "important" it will show in the character of the community. We don't need a government commission or individual deciding which religion should be honored in public museums.
10:14 PM on 03/28/2011
For those of you interested in more on this topic, I have a new documentary coming to PBS in May that tells the story of how separation of church and state in public schools came to be, and the young central Illinois mother who made it happen in 1945. It's called THE LORD IS NOT ON TRIAL HERE TODAY, and you can learn more at www.thelordisnotontrial.com
02:17 AM on 03/29/2011
Thanks for the info. I plan on checking this out!
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iLdoRight
Encouraging The Rightest Rightness
10:14 PM on 03/28/2011
I do not think the Atheist need to worry too much about the "Cross" bearing religionists, they do not believe that much in God anyway, for if they did they would take the rejection of the practice listed in the 10 commandments at Exodus 20:4,5 to heart, erroring on the side of safety, but their mental song seems to be "We don't care". Some Atheist may have more respect for Our Creator than do some alleging Christianity.
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usorthem3
06:18 PM on 03/29/2011
Until the cross is buried in an atheist skull according to the bible.

2 Chronicles 15 13 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
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legalhound
Enemy of the proudly ignorant
09:18 PM on 03/29/2011
Ok this is precisely the reason we have the 1st Amendment prohibition on the Establishment of religion. Not all Christian sects even agree on matters of dogma or interpretation. We also have a Free Exercise clause and it was intended to allow not only the other sects of Christianity to practice their own versions, but to allow for other religions as well. Read the Virgina Religious Freedom Act and the writings of Jefferson regarding it and you will understand. People have a right to believe or not, the decision is personal. After all, you might be wrong and you won't know till you die, but why should someone else risk their soul based on what you or anyone else has to say?
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syntax facit saltum
We do not live in a 2 story universe
09:38 PM on 03/29/2011
That passage has nothing to do with anyone outside of the group who made an oath amongst themselves, referring to themselves. But hey what's a little duplicity among friends? That's why we have freedom of speech.
08:18 PM on 03/28/2011
How can we expect our children to understand what is happening the world today without a fundamental understanding of the world religions? How do we expect them to understand when the adults running the show in Washington don't even understand it?

Not allowing the teaching or outward displays of one religion over another is correct. However, not letting the children learn diversity and about other beliefs is wrong.

Your good Christian son is not going to convert if he learns about Judaism, or Islam. And if he does...so what? What he just may learn is an understanding of the conditions in the world today and be able to know who is spewing hatred and who is telling the truth. He may be able to at least understand what he reads in the paper and learn that when we say Freedom of Religion, we mean it.

Of course teaching about world religions in schools would mean training the teachers and writing text books that are not slanted...a thing of impossibility in today's political climate.
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02:25 PM on 03/29/2011
Schools can and should teach the fundamentals of the worlds major religions to teenagers.
Americans need to know much more about Islam for instance.
But forcing elementary school children to say or listen or be a party to a prayer that is not part of that student's religion is against that family's civil rights.
Keep the preaching and praying in the home and the church and not in the public schools.
03:11 PM on 03/29/2011
It is easy to teach a grade school child about other religions without prayer. For instance the time of Ramadan may be compared to Passover and Lent. A time of fasting and prayer that all major religions observe. Take the fear out of it and let that 8 year old know that they are all religious observances and not something of an evil Regime.
By the time the kids are teenagers their values are pretty much set.
How do we teach world history without mentioning Luther? Muhammad? Wars fought in the name of God and keep God out of it?
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tek1
Only demand creates jobs.
07:43 PM on 03/31/2011
I agree with you that world religions can be taught. The problem is teaching them objectively. An atheist will teach them with derision. A Christian will slant towards Christianity being "the truth", etc etc. I do feel that they should be left out of the primary education system until an objective system can be put into place.
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legalhound
Enemy of the proudly ignorant
09:25 PM on 03/29/2011
Hinduism, Buddhism (Tibetan, Zen, etc) and others need to be included in that. Judaism is what Christianity sprang from and Islam came later, but they all have a purpose for those who believe them. To have a basic understanding of the religion is to have some understanding of the culture in each case. It also leads to art and music as much of the earliest examples are religious. They all have to be taught equally and as equally valid. Otherwise it is not teaching about religion, but teaching the favored religion itself, which is not okay to do with public funds.
10:12 PM on 03/29/2011
Exactly. The only thing I would add is that there should not be a 'favored' religion. The teacher, texts and visual aids would have to be carefully crafted and the dialog gotten right. In today's political climate it will never happen. A look at the Texas school text fiasco is evidence of that.
Many of the adults today do not have any understanding of the true history of our county, thinking it all started in the eastern colonies over freedom of religion with little attention put on the economical factors and ignore the Spanish and French contributions as well as the Native Americans. (Not to say anything of the thousands of years of history before the English came) We can't even get that right...how will we ever get the teaching about religion and how it shaped the world correct.
08:12 PM on 03/28/2011
A well written article focusing on the law as interpreted by a Court, rather than the preferences of the author.

While some clamor to ban all religious expression in public, U.S. and international Courts hold that for democratic self government to be effective, all voices must be allowed in the public square. The power to ban one viewpoint from public expression is the power to ban any contrary view from public debate. That would destroy a variety of Constitutional freedoms including, freedom of religion, free speech, free press, freedom to assemble, and the freedom to petition government. Indeed, in one respect, for a government to ban any viewpoint from the public is the governmental establishment of the contrary view as the state preference or religion.
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head...
09:29 AM on 03/30/2011
There's a difference between the 'Trying to ban all religious expression in public' and 'The state itself should not display symbols, endorsements, or commandments of a particular religion,' and you know it.
11:32 AM on 03/30/2011
Hi Lintlass. Some fervently wish to ban all religious expression in public and fiercely advocate the same.

As for the decision of the European Court, we in the U.S. can forget that many European countries actually have government established and supported religions. In Italy it is the Roman Catholic Church. In Finland (the country of origin for the complaintant in this case) it is the Lutheran Church. Those governments actually impose and collect a tax and hand the money to the state established church. (It is debatable whether this enhances or detracts from the faithfulness of members of such churches) Actually funding a church with a direct tax is a core establishment of religion. By comparison, displaying a crucifix in a classroom or public building is a far lesser entanglement.

Frankly, I prefer the U.S. protection against establishing religion. But, even more than that, I prefer the right of democratice self-governance or popular sovereignty where every person has the right to advance their own preferences in public and have them adopted or rejected on their merits. If the people in Italy want to establish the Catholic Church impose taxes to support it and display crosses, that is their right. Just as it is the right of the Iranians to establish and support the Muslim faith. In the U.S., I will readily join you and others to protect religious freedom by avoiding unnecessary entanglements between the goverment and religion.
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UnderTheHedgeWeGo
Show me some evidence.
07:38 PM on 03/31/2011
How does "the government can't embrace or promote any specific religion or religion in general" become "some clamor to ban all religious expression in public". I have never, not once, ever heard an atheist calling for "banning all expression of religion in public"; never. OF COURSE banning any view from being expressed in public is reprehensible, that's why NOBODY is advocating any such thing.

This is a favorite tactic of the Right. Planing for end of life issues becomes "The government is going to kill grandma" and separation of church and state becomes "banning all religion". Spreading these pernicious falsehoods to an unsophisticated and credulous public is, itself, reprehensible.
10:40 AM on 04/01/2011
Me thinketh thou protesteth too much.

Here is an example (an exact quote) of the types of comments posted on this very website that would ban religion from public discourse.

“Religion is not based in fact, and it is for this reason that it should not be part of the public political discourse, let alone the basis for any legislation, domestic policy, or foreign policy”

Such statements like the quote above follow the agenda to "marginalize" religion. My comment was not a pernicious falsehood but accurate report of what others comment on this exact website. Apparently it is someone else who reprehensibly wishes to dupe the unsophisticated and credulous. You frequently comment on this website, it surprises me that you have failed to notice the numerous comments like that quoted above.
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Indigo1941
Time traveler.
07:46 PM on 03/28/2011
"religious freedom does not give a minority a heckler's veto over majoritarian policies"

That's interesting pro-religionist phrasing there, professor. I would go so far as to sugest that it typifies the heckling of non-religious people so typical of biblebeltery and its adherents. That's going to have stop and if it takes yet another trip to the Supreme Court, that's what it'll take. Lautsi is right to take Italy to court, the court was prejudicial to cave in to European Vaticanism. That's likely to change yet again because theheckling comes from the majoritarian side and must stop.
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syntax facit saltum
We do not live in a 2 story universe
02:17 AM on 03/29/2011
"heckler's veto" is a technical term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler%27s_veto
if it is specifically that term you are objecting to.
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syntax facit saltum
We do not live in a 2 story universe
02:19 AM on 03/29/2011
The link didn't work correctly. Perhaps this will work better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler's_veto
07:23 PM on 03/28/2011
Your statement that "freedom of religion and expression require that all views be heard in public life" represents a fundamental misunderstanding of what lies behind the First Amendment. What is being limited are expressions by the STATE that endorse a religion. The First Amendment does not limit a priviate citizen's right to endorse a religion. The European decision was a poor one and hopefully an approach that is never accepted by the courts in the U.S.
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Herkv
Caught in a loop . . .
04:52 PM on 03/28/2011
I'm quite amused by the phrase, "passive display." In order to become active, does a display need motors or flashing lights? The fact of its being displayed says enough.

When I see the Christian cross, I am not reminded of the sacrifice of the putative Jesus, who, depending upon the account may have been hung from a tree, but rather the Emperor Constantine's cross, which bears witness to the light of his favorite god, Deus Invictus. Had there been an actual Jesus, he may have been crucified on a tau cross or an X - more likely than the crossbar version depicted around the necks of modern religionists.

The cross with the lowered crossbar depicts the rays of Constantine's Unconquerable Sun, with the rays emanating in all directions and the lower beam reaching us here on earth.

So if the cross is a religious symbol, one might well ask which religion it symbolizes.
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ChaCubed
Fabulously Liberal
05:41 PM on 03/28/2011
Quote Herkv: I'm quite amused by the phrase, "passive display." In order to become active, does a display need motors or flashing lights? ..... "

Oh no, this brought to mind a Crucifix Clock! :P
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UnderTheHedgeWeGo
Show me some evidence.
08:19 PM on 03/28/2011
I asked the same question a while back; "aren't all displays active?". I'm told an active display would be one with which the observer was required to interact. It is the difference between "Jesus on the wall" and "We will all now pray to Jesus on the wall". Who knew?
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powercosmic
The Anti-Christ
04:40 PM on 03/28/2011
The ch.urch has a vested interest in attaching itself to government buildings to propagate the idea that they are attached to the power withing our society.

Unfortunately, the ch.urch has much money plus a shared agenda with the banksters, a revolution of sorts is taking place and soon in America chr.istianity will enter the minority stage of its reign. Then things will change quickly and for the better because this will signal that the consciousness of our country has evolved to one where people understand that we can solve our problems without divine intervention.
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ninetailedfox
banning people.....so childish
07:14 PM on 03/28/2011
I hate to be skeptical, but Ill believe it when I see it, especially since many public schools are allowing for bibles and "special christian indoctorination" on school time.
08:48 PM on 03/28/2011
Nice thought, but with 75% of Americans still, as of the 2010 census, identifying as Christian, 'soon' might be a lot further away than you think.
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powercosmic
The Anti-Christ
02:01 AM on 03/29/2011
You are correct, but don't forget that over the past 20 years we've seen the census report indicate that percentage go from 89% to 72%.

My guess is that 40% of the 72% are closet Atheists who claim belief only out of peer-pressure, fear of jobloss, and attachment to family members who are "believers".

I agree with you but I think under the right conditions things could move faster than we might think.

Consider that 72% of 310 million is 237 million "Christians" right?

Well 310 million minus 237 million is 72 million non-Christians! That is a HUUUUUUGE number and that market is not being served, they are thirsty for acknowledge as a group in this society and we need to activate and get them talking, doing our own proselytize-ing.
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Jahli
Sanity has a well known liberal bias
04:07 PM on 03/28/2011
I am so turned off and uncomfortable by the blatant religiosity (signs, crosses, pictures, sayings, etc.) displayed in the waitng room, hallways, and exam rooms, at my physician's office that I am actively seeking a new family practice doc.
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ChaCubed
Fabulously Liberal
05:35 PM on 03/28/2011
I went to an appointment with a new gynocologist; and when I saw his waiting room filled with anti-abortion literature, I walked up to the desk, gave my name, and told them I was leaving because I wanted a doctor who cared about my health and well-being beyond and apart from my ability to be an incubator.
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Enea
Reason above all else.
05:59 PM on 03/28/2011
You are being a bit too paranoid I ought to say. Personally I could care less what they have in the classroom or in the office, as long as they don't start bullshitting me.
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03:58 PM on 03/28/2011
First, tradition counts in these cases. In American courts, older religious displays tend to fare better than newer displays. The longstanding customary presence of a religious symbol in public life eventually renders it not only acceptable but indispensable to defining who we are as a people. In Lautsi, Judge Bonello put this argument strongly in his concurrence: "A court of human rights cannot allow itself to suffer from historical Alzheimer's. It has no right to disregard the cultural continuum of a nation's flow through time, nor to ignore what, over the centuries, has served to mould and define the profile of a people."

=========

A short but effective defense of the idea of the tyranny of the majority.

In addition, a public school room is different from a museum of cultural history in ways that are relevant to this case.

Most nations' "flow through time" has included a change from being more willing to impose religion on the citizens by law to being less willing. Recognizing this would mean ruling against crucifixes in a public school; allowing the crucifixes indicates “historical Alzheimer’s”.

I wonder if American Christianists who support banning Sharia law or any foreign law in our courts will want this ruling cited in American courts. This ruling is as inappropriate for present American culture as Sharia law is.
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Jahli
Sanity has a well known liberal bias
04:11 PM on 03/28/2011
Yes, except your talking Christianity.... for heaven's sake,,,, the only "true" religion.....

(please excuse my hyperbole)
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05:00 PM on 03/28/2011
Aren't they all.
de-meme-ing
Buying USA Feeds USA, Supports/Preserves USA
05:58 PM on 03/28/2011
I disagree. The crucifixion "in Italy" is not just a religous symbol. It is a symbol that is the embodiment of their history and contribution to the world, just as the Star of David embodies Judaism/Jews and their contribution. It is not just religious specific, it is culturally specific to the history and people of Italy. It says, imo, to the children of Italy, "This is part of our culture, our history, our contribution, for better and worse to the entire world".

In every American we place a flag; they placed a crucifix.

It is an historic artifact in the classroom. It is part and parcel of the architecture.

Atheist have become no different then the conquering religions before them; extreme. They'll decry the destruction of the two Buddha statues in Afghanistan, by the Taliban, but don't see themselves in the same light, wanting to **** on the grave of any an all representations of Christianity in not just America, but all over the world.

And if the truth were told, more men died who would be proud to wear that cross, defending all your right to **** on their grave, then any other religion or non religion, in America, but that doesn't give you the right to do it.

You are still my favorite atheist........but I won't let you **** on their grave.

There are enough legitimate fights regarding separation of church and state and religious symbols, no matter the religion, without becoming the Taliban.
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06:48 PM on 03/28/2011
Separation does not indicate denigration. One of the reasons I do not call myself an atheist is the common atheist practice of denigrating the people who believe in religions.

I can argue about the validity of truth claims without that, and so can you. I am not doing anything to anyone's grave.

I am a person who is not a member of any religion. That doesn't imply disrespect or denigration of anyone. Some of the people I love most are religious and I would never insult their person.

Their beliefs are fair game, as are mine. I expect the courtesy and respect that I give to you to be returned to me in full measure.
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Semprini
Stamp out and abolish redundancy
07:35 PM on 03/28/2011
"Atheist have become no different then the conquering religions before them; extreme. They'll decry the destructio n of the two Buddha statues in Afghanista n, by the Taliban, but don't see themselves in the same light, wanting to **** on the grave of any an all representa tions of Christiani ty in not just America, but all over the world."

Well, so much for your moniker...