The only thing as constant as the gun lobby's claim that concealed handgun permit holders are model citizens who never commit crimes is the ever-growing list of killings by CCW holders that prove such claims false.
Let's look at three of the new killings detailed in the May update to the Violence Policy Center's "Concealed Carry Killers" website, which tracks killings by concealed handgun permit holders as reported by news outlets (since detailed information on killings by permit holders isn't made available by issuing states).
- On April 15, 2010, concealed handgun permit holder Norman Bren Whitton, 69, allegedly shot and killed fellow retiree Larry Butcher, 74, after a road-rage incident at an upscale East Tennessee retirement village involving Whitton's Cadillac sedan and Butcher's golf cart. Whitton was charged with second-degree murder.
- On April 28, 2010, concealed handgun permit holder Amanda Knight, 21, was allegedly part of a group of four criminals who took part in a home-invasion robbery in Washington state that resulted in the shooting death of James Sanders, 43. Knight was charged with first-degree murder, first-degree robbery, and second-degree assault.
- On May 2, 2010, former Navy Captain and concealed handgun permit holder Robert Klosterman, 64, shot and killed his wife Rebecca, 57, in their Virginia home before shooting himself to death.
But the tally of murdered law enforcement, mass shootings, murder-suicides, domestic violence shootings, and all too many instances of guys who "holler a lot" going off on roadways, in parking lots, or at bars and restaurants means little to concealed carry proponents who above all want to carry their guns and care little about the innocent victims killed or injured in the process.
- On the night of Friday, March 21, 2008, David Aaron Price threw either rocks or debris at an unmarked police car as it was stopped at an intersection in Pittsburgh. When Detective George Satler got out of the car, Price opened fire with the 22 caliber Beretta handgun he was licensed to carry. Satler and his partner, Detective Tim Rush, returned fire, hitting Price seven times. According to Pittsburgh Police Assistant Chief Maurita Bryant, "Even when the suspect was down, he continued to fire his weapon." Detective Satler was hit once in the lower back, treated, and released with the bullet still lodged in his body. Detective Rush was uninjured. Price died from his wounds. Price's father told reporters, "It's a complete shock. He would holler a lot, but he was a gentle person."
Follow Josh Sugarmann on Twitter: www.twitter.com/VPCinfo
...but only cops should carry guns.
But I would like to know whether there is any bona fide research out there about crime rates among licenses vis-a-vis the rest of the population? "Bona fide" means regressive analysis of numeric data by someone who has had actual training in statistics, NOT "so-and-so who had a license killed so-and-so, so see, all licensees are bad."
http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant2000.htm
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/chlsindex.htm
.
Also, CCW in Florida is not just guns. It involves Knives and something else, I believe a taser/baton.
In the above sentence, substitute any other right in place of the text reading "carry a firearm" and ask yourself whether this logic is a sound basis for curbing civil liberties.
An example - "because some will cross over the line from responsibly exercising their right to peacably assemble to engaging in criminal behavior (e.g., conspiring to treason while so assembled), the ability of all to exercise the right to peaceably assemble should be prohibited in order to prevent the few from engaging in criminal behavior.
Another - "because some will cross over the line from responsibly exercising their right to testify in their own defense to engaging in criminal behavior (e.g., committing perjury), the ability of all to exercise the right to testify in their own defense should be prohibited in order to prevent the few from engaging in criminal behavior.
One of the many defects in legislating on the basis of "my story about so-and-so" is that it doesn't address causation. Would all 3 of the named people have been carrying illegally in the absence of a CCW law? If so, then it's difficult to say that the CCW law caused the crimes to take place. (Indeed, Mr. Sugarmann doesn't try. The sole point is to identify "people with concealed handgun licenses" as "borderline criminals" rather than have a reasoned debate about public policy.)
When everyone carries a gun, an argument that would normally end in some sort of scuffle or just yelling, ends in someone getting shot instead.
I think people should have the right to have guns, but our current attitude in this country where everyone wants to walk around armed to the gills to protect themselves results in far greater numbers of innocent people being shot than people protecting themselves from a would-be robber or assailant.
Police have said for many years that the people who usually get killed by private gunowners are their loved ones.
I guess everyone should be able to have assault rifles and carry a gun on each hip just to make sure they're safe?
What a horrible mistake.
VPC/BC have for years been saying that there will be blooding running in the streets when they allow concealed carry. Has not happened yet. And when you take into account that Mr. Clinton had the Justice Dept. do a study on the number of crimes (crimes, not murders exclusively), they found at least 800,000 crimes averted annually by persons who were armed. And the vast majority did not discharge their weapons. So I would submit that the presence of firearms is highly beneficial to maintaining peace.
If a police officer could be present at the time each and every crime started, we might be able to agree to some points you made, but they usually just take information and try to catch the perpetrator at a later date.
You didn't respond to my point that minor arguments end in shooting when everyone is armed AND most people (still) are shot by loved ones.
Sorry, no matter how yiou color it, people carrying guns everywhere results in more shootings and senseless deaths. It's axiomatic.
Read John Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime".
I doubt I'll live to see the day when Americans evolve out of their miserable obsession with violence and weapons, but if it ever happens, let me congratulate them in advance.
An estimated eighty-million individuals in the United States lawfully own firearms. Given that the percentage of these individuals who criminally misuse their firearms is statistically insignificant, your conclusion is not rational. However, your statement is consistent with my observation that civilian disarmament advocates are irrational.
Based on your comments, I guess it's far more important to have no gun control than it is to save innocent lives. Right?
If you outlaw guns. then only outlaws will have guns.
Well, two remarks. First, I am fully supportive of the Second Amendment. I own several firearms. My children own firearms. I have no problem with the CONCEPT of concealed-carry permits, although I would prefer the permitting process to be a bit more scrupulous. For example, I am personally familiar with instances where CCW permits were granted specifically because the applicants were known to the the relevant Sheriffs. I'm not suggesting that there was anything wrong with the applicants -- how could I? -- but shortcutting the procedure is asking for trouble.
Second remark: Mr. Sugarmann is not attacking the CCW concept on a percentage basis. He is making the point -- which I'm afraid is true -- that SOME holders of concealed-carry permits commit illegal acts with their weapons. You cannot legitimately discredit this assertion by simply saying things like "it's only x% of murders" -- to be meaningful, you'd have to compare the murder rate among CCW holders to the overall murder rate. I also find it sketchy to try to exclude events because "the CCW didn't matter in that case". The strongest pro-CCW argument is that folks with a CCW have had extra training and background checks to ensure that their weapon use will be under control. It seems to me that such control shouldn't depend on whether or not their weapon is actually concealed.
Such corruption is eliminated through the structuring of a "shall issue" permit system.
How many people have died from automobile accidents?
Irrelevant.
Not entirely. It is important to have perspective about the magnitude of the risk. Comparison with other familiar sources of risk help provide that perspective.
As a test I decided to Google "judge convicted" just to see what came up.
Here are five examples chosen at random.
Judge Convicted for Private-Prison Kickback Scheme
Ex-Judge Convicted of Indecent Exposure
El Paso judge convicted in sex, bribe case
Ex-N.Y. Judge Convicted of Shaking Down Attorney
Philadelphia Ex-Judge Convicted of Extortion
Retired judge, convicted of embezzlement, disbarred by resignation
So what does this all prove? That we shouldn't have CCW or that we should do away with judges?
It proves nothing at all, as Josh well knows.
Do you really want to argue about that?
Josh, you may be trying to demonize CCW holders, but so far all you have done is prove how lawful they are compared to the general population. Keep it up Josh, your data is really helping further the cause of gun rights.
Meanwhile, of course he ignores the far more common cases of firearm self defense taking place by CCW holders. For those who actually care about facts, check here:
http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/
That point is that no matter how you look at it, CCW holders committ a microscopic fraction of the murders in this nation, Clearly we have much more to fear from those without CCW permits then those who have them.
It is the same terror that President Obama would take away their guns despite literally no evidence to support it.
There really does seem to be a lack of sense when it comes to guns.
The fact is that the laws we had on the books would have stopped Cho's purchases had the judge simply checked the correct box on a form, confirming what he had written -- that Cho was a danger to himself and others.
While President Obama has not said he would take away any of the firearms already in civilian hands, he did support several gun control positions which were cause for some concern.
As for the Virginia Tech incident-even the reasonable request for some better legislation caused mass hysteria on the part of the NRA and other gun rights groups.
They truly are a class act.
http://www.bradynetwork.org/site/MessageViewer/&printer_friendly=1?em_id=24141.0&dlv_id=21161&JServSessionIdr007=3c0w0fru72.app25a
Here's the one sent out a month later:
http://www.bradynetwork.org/site/MessageViewer/&printer_friendly=1?em_id=24681.1&dlv_id=21782
"Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: William Littleton
PENDING
Date: December 15, 2008
People Killed: 1
Circumstances: On December 15, 2008, William Littleton allegedly killed his neighbor,
72-year-old Luther Kaemming, shooting him three times in the chest with a rifle.
Kaemming was a prosecuting witness in a court case against Littleton on charges that
Littleton had obstructed drainage ditches in front of his property causing water to back up
into neighbors’ yards. Littleton, who was issued a concealed handgun permit in 1998,
was charged with murder.
Source: “Sheriff’s Dept.: Man accused of murder had previously threatened neighbor,” The Daily News
(Jacksonville, NC), December 16, 2008; “Mistrial preceded neighbors fatal dispute,” The Daily News
(Jacksonville, NC), January 14, 2009."