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Judge David Young

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The Final Rose Ceremony: Prop 8

Posted: 03/04/09 09:19 PM ET

Tonight there will be protests and calls for action on both sides of the issue of Marriage Equality. I watch along with the rest of the entire nation to see what the always-progressive and precedent-setting California Supreme Court will do next. The arguments have been made time and again, but for my partner and I, this comes down to the core issue of basic human rights.

The California Attorney General and I agree that Proposition 8 should fail, but not for any of the reasons raised in the lawsuits. Certain rights cannot be put to a popular vote. No fundamental right can be taken away by the voters.

Could the public, frustrated by a crime wave, take away a criminal defendant's right to remain silent? Definitely not. Voters simply don't get to vote on such things, at least not without a compelling justification. There was no justification for Proposition 8 other than to open another front in the culture way by appealing to hatred, fear and religious zealotry.

Overturning the will of voters is not, and should not be, easy. We live in a democracy, after all. Whomever gets the most votes usually wins (just ask Al Gore). However, every once in a while basic constitutional rights safeguard minority groups from the tyranny of an electoral majority. I'm hoping this is one of these times.

I hope that the California Supreme Court will rule that the thousands of married gay and lesbian couples will continue to live happily ever after -- until they file for divorce, which I predict will happen at about the same rate as their straight counterparts.

With the economy in a shambles, environmental disasters everywhere we look, and war raging around our planet, wouldn't you think the people of California have more important things to worry about? Still, it would have been better if the Attorney General had raised this point BEFORE the election. He could have saved taxpayers and everyone involved millions -- pity!

 
Tonight there will be protests and calls for action on both sides of the issue of Marriage Equality. I watch along with the rest of the entire nation to see what the always-progressive and precedent-...
Tonight there will be protests and calls for action on both sides of the issue of Marriage Equality. I watch along with the rest of the entire nation to see what the always-progressive and precedent-...
 
 
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06:50 PM on 03/05/2009
Thank You....
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paisleyface
imagine there's no imagination
12:50 PM on 03/05/2009
The simplest solution would be civil union for all couples wanting legal recognition of their partnership. The gov't should not be in the business of recognizing religious designations. One's status as a citizen does not change after a bah mitzvah, first communion, or confirmation. Why on Earth should it change after a religious wedding ceremony?
01:07 PM on 03/05/2009
the reality is that we already have 2 services. if there is a wedding ceremony in church, with all the trimmings, but there is no license signed, and the constraints of common law are not engaged, you do not have a government recognized marriage. concomitantly, if you pick up the license, and quietly have it signed with no fanfare but registered, you are married.

in many countries, these two ceremonies are, indeed, separate. in some cased, people have elaborate ceremonies for both. few laws would have to be changed to require a jp to sign the papers in the us, returning the ceremonies to the appropriate venues and focus.
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Dots
The shadow of God is beauty.
12:34 PM on 03/05/2009
Help! I live in a country of bigots.
10:54 AM on 03/05/2009
I can see why CA has such a problem in its courts since its judges have NO respect for the law. They simply void any law they don't like and do as they please. The FACT is that the people DO have the right to void ANY rights by voting for amendments to the Constitutions and people who would support such changes. We could even bring back slavery if we passed a Constitutional Amendment to void the 13th one. In CA, they would simply have a judge throw out the amendment on their say so alone. So there is NO need for a legislature at all as MA found out. The court went FAR beyond its bounds and TOLD the legislature to pass certain laws. I fail to see how such a thing is even remotely legal. Yet the legislature complied. THAT is a judicial dictatorship, Right NOW you may like the way the courts rule, but down the road, you will regret it when it is YOUR butt that gets nailed by this process.
11:29 AM on 03/05/2009
Wow. Are we truly a state or nation so self-centered and pathetic that we immediately jump to victimhood when two consenting, loving adults get married?

If you've deluded yourself into thinking you are a victim because of same-sex marriage then you are worthy of my sympathy for what you alone have done to yourself.
12:31 PM on 03/05/2009
YOU are deluded if you think that gay marriage is any kind of a right. I simply point out that NOW you may be happy that the judges are writing laws the way YOU like. It may very well change in another direction. For example, what if corporate friendly judges declare that excessive jury awards are a violation of the takings clause in the US Constitution, and decree that the legislature must make and pass a law against such awards? That such awards are unConstitutional, and that new laws must be passed to favor corporations. Think that will be a good thing? I don't.

It is up to the elected representatives of the body politic who gets to make laws, NOT the judges.
01:49 PM on 03/05/2009
In most states and for the federal government, it takes more than a simple majority to amend a constitution--that's what the California courts need to decide. Can a simple majority amend their constitution?

The judicial branch exists to protect citizens from "tyranny of the majority," as James Madison wrote. You may like how the majority votes now, but what happens when you're no longer the majority? Our U.S. Constitution is a minoritarian document. Our courts are there to help prevent abuses inflicted by the majority on an unpopular minority. That's not a dictatorship. That's true freedom.

Going back to the Magna Carta, Constitutions, their articles, and their amendments have existed to guarantee freedoms, not to limit them. We tried an experiment in using the Constitution to retract freedom rather than to grant rights. It was called the 18th amendment, and we all know how that turned out (you can look it up).
10:24 AM on 03/05/2009
Ghandi said something like "in matters of conscience, majority rule does not apply". Some of his ashes in CA at a shrine at the Self Realization Center at Sunset and PCH.
10:08 AM on 03/05/2009
"Those principles require people to be treated equally under the law.".
Well then the polygamists should have equal rights as the homosexuals.
In CA it is not a crime to be homosexual; it is a crime to be polygamist.
That is most unfair especially if all parties of the polygamist union are
consenting adults..... Already there is lawsuit going on in Canada
to legalize polygamy using the arguments used by the anti-8 group......
Polygamy (polygyny, polyandry) coming soon to the great state of California!!!
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
talkstocoyotes
04:49 PM on 03/12/2009
Polygamy probably will become an issue if there's a significant number of people interested in it. It's no reason to deny a portion of the population the same rights everyone else has.

Of course, if the religious wingnuts would start diverting their energies to preventing polygamy from being legalized......

Oh no, scratch that. A lot of them are Mormons.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
democracy7
Registered Nurse currently working in
06:14 AM on 03/05/2009
Our laws are put in place to protect our rights, to maintain civil tranquility. How is trampling on someones right to marry someone of the same sex protecting us?
06:54 AM on 03/05/2009
Our constitution and our laws are also there to protect us against rights arbitrarily being taken away or changed due to religious zealotry, fear and hate mongering. It took the government of this country hundreds of years to enshrine into law the rights of African Americans that rightfully should've been their's all along. Yet fear, hatred and zealots of all kinds saw them as not worthy of not only the same rights but not worthy of freedom to determine their own course in life and did so simply because of the color of their skin. How's that for human depravity in the name of religion? Now a similar ilk of haters and zealots would like to deny another minority group a right which they themselves enjoy. Because they may constitute a majority of the population does not make it right, just as slavery and jim crow and separate but equal were not right. No one is trying to change the laws to change anything about heterosexual people getting married and there is no threat to that right. Gay people are just trying to gain that right for themselves just as African Americans finally gained rights to become equal citizens of our country.
07:13 AM on 03/05/2009
Using the courts to overturn actual laws meant to subjugate blacks isn't the same as using the courts to shoehorn social ideals (where there's no consensus that it's the right thing to do) into law to make other society like you better.

Gay marriage is a recent innovation. Obviously there's a lot of resistance to it. Just because, to some, it looks like the marriage they were talking about in Loving v. Virginia, doesn't mean that gay people's rights are being taken away.

It also doesn't change the fact that our current standard marriage policy doesn't actually preclude gay individuals from marrying, but it does preclude everyone from marrying someone of the same sex.
03:37 AM on 03/05/2009
I'm a sixty-six year old white guy and hopelessly straight. I sincerly hope that the court does the correct thing and supports the rights of the minority. Protection against the tyranny of the majority is one reason why even the small states get two Senators. The founders understood the principle very well.
03:03 AM on 03/05/2009
One might consider "the rich" to be a minority group, which should be protected under the Constitution. For example, why is it right to confiscate none of some people's property, and 40% of others'? This is apparently an acceptable usurpation of a minority's right which liberals are perfectly content in observing, and in fact dead-set on expanding.
05:45 AM on 03/05/2009
Progressive taxation is a signature part of western civilization.

Though a popular hobby horse for some, the fact is that 'the rich' of America would not be able to achieve such riches if they were in another country.

For that, they must contribute more than those for whom the country also relies - the poorer people.

They'll still be far better off than in any other country.
11:08 AM on 03/05/2009
Why are the rich better off in America than in any other country? Is it because Americans are biologically superior? Is it because we have the best landscapes? Or is it because of our capitalist system which allows people to enjoy the fruits of their labor?
07:34 AM on 03/05/2009
The rich get rich on the backs of the poor. Some understand that and give huge amounts of their gains to improving all of our situations. Good examples like that are hard to find amongst those who impose their religious beliefs upon others.
01:11 AM on 03/05/2009
if the suprems court in California overturns the will of the people, I say we march on Sacramento and unseat them. as obama said "we won" marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman period.
02:56 AM on 03/05/2009
By less than 4%.

Hardly a mandate.
03:09 AM on 03/05/2009
Why is it between 1 man and 1 woman? Marriage is a civil contract entered into by two individuals regardless of their gender. If you take away ANY individual's right to marry ANY person of their choosing you are violating the equal protection clause of the California constitution.

And then there's that little fact that "the people" cannot change the constitution in the manner by which it was attempted with this vote. The "will of the people" is the last part of the process by which we make those changes. The legislature has to be involved first.

This is just such a perfect example of why the initiative process should never have been allowed to fall to "the people" in the first place. Out of state interests manipulated the vote.
08:49 AM on 03/05/2009
The idea of marriage is a religious principle. It started due to religion and was between a man and a woman. The state got involved for licensing purposes and to make money.
01:04 AM on 03/05/2009
This isnt about civil rights this is about the begining of huge numbers of lawsuits, if the supreme court of California usurps the will of the people that is exactly what you will see, discrimination lawsuits will skyrocket. to coin a phrase by obama " we won" deal with it, or as pelosi says "just be happy with what you have ". either way take your pick. NEXT
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
mag68
01:38 AM on 03/05/2009
u r just plain wrong. try coming up with a valid argument.
07:36 AM on 03/05/2009
amend the ca constitution in the manner prescribed.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
RButler
"Who wouldn't love a person who had a pony?"
12:19 AM on 03/05/2009
I wish Californians would put a proposition on the ballot making divorce illegal and not respecting divorces from other states just to see if the right wing argues against that. You know how sacred they regard marriage. Let them defend that proposition.
05:48 AM on 03/05/2009
Indeed - and a prop to limit marriage ceremonies to churches only, by priests only.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Downix
08:29 AM on 03/05/2009
How about Christian churches only next? Then Prodestant only churches after that? Then Churches ran direcly by Pat Robertson after that....

Where would it end?
06:57 AM on 03/05/2009
Here, here!!
11:16 PM on 03/04/2009
Ahem, was I just imagining it when, before the election, the California Supreme Court heard such a petition, ruled it premature, and told the AG to come back, after the election?
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11:46 PM on 03/04/2009
No you were not imagining it. Your recollection is 100% absolutely correct.
12:20 AM on 03/05/2009
Like SD Indy said, you're correct.

The reason as I understand it, is so the case matches the circumstances. If they had allowed the suit to go forward prior to the vote, and Prop 8 had failed to pass (which there was every reason to believe that it could), then the whole issue would be moot and would have been a waste of the court's time.
11:08 PM on 03/04/2009
Well if it were as easy as all that then it would be as easy as all that. There are important issues at stake here. This is not a civil rights issue legally because marriage was never defined as a social contract between two people of the same sex. The definition of marriage has to be changed first; and then, you could go for the civil rights issue. Why are there so many people with law degrees who don't understand the basics. No matter. As this progresses you will begin to understand what it is all about. Change the definition first. Never put the cart before the horse. Things don;t work well that way.
11:40 PM on 03/04/2009
Uh, hello?

The CA Supreme Court already ruled that according to the state's Constitution, marriage is between two consenting adults, opposite or same sex.

In effect, the legal definition of marriage in California WAS changed.

So yes it IS a civil rights argument now. (Actually is was before as well, but I'm using your standard here.)

Did you miss the ruling that started all this?
03:05 AM on 03/05/2009
If the term civil is to be a modifier that modifies, than you would have to convince me that marriage is a civic necessity for you to call it a "civil rights issue".
09:53 AM on 03/05/2009
President Obama HAS in fact talked about reviewing the Federal DOMA, which would in theory redefine marriage on a national level. Or at least allow individual states to determine their own definition of marriage. And, all that will do is make "the fly over" states even more "fly over" as more and more gays and lesbians flee their angry hate ridden discriminatory states and move to places where they are accepted as the caring loving human beings they (we) are
11:02 PM on 03/04/2009
"Could the public, frustrated by a crime wave, take away a criminal defendant's right to remain silent? Definitely not. Voters simply don't get to vote on such things, at least not without a compelling justification."

WRONG.

Wow I would expect a Judge to know more about the US Constitution; specifically Article V and the ability of voters - yes VOTERS - to amend the US Constitution. Heck - the "right to remain silent' is in an amendment - the 5th amendment!!

The voters would need only amend the US Constitution - in the manner specified in Article V. That amendment could be extremely simple - the amendment repeals the part of the 5th amendment that sets out the right to remain silent. And guess what? No more right to remain silent.

You of all people should know that everything in the US Constitution, except for the number of Senators per state, can be amended.

So could the public, frustrated by a crime wave, take away a criminal defendant's right to remain silent? Definitely YES regardless of their reason or justification.
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11:50 PM on 03/04/2009
You are WRONG when you talk about the 5th Amendment. Obviously you don't understand how the amendment process work when it comes to amending the US Constitution. The voters do NOT have the opportunity to vote on US Constitutional Amendments. An amendment is introduced in both chamber of the US Congress and MUST pass both chamber by a two-thirds majority. And then it goes on to the states where three quarters of the state legislatures MUST approve the amendment. It would NEVER get through either chamber of the US Congress let alone make it to the states.

Do you see how the voters NEVER get a voice in the matter of US Constitutional amendments?
12:50 AM on 03/05/2009
OH - Lets just see how wrong you are.

First - It is NOT the 5th amendment that controls the amendment process - it is ARTICLE 5.

Second - You have only detailed one way for an amendment to become part of the US Constitution. Go re-read Article 5 again, you clown. Pay particular attention to the other process - constitutional convention. If you still don't understand. Go read up on the 21st amendment and how that got ratified.

Third - Regarding the way you mentioned. Who do you think votes for the US Congress and the State Legislatures. Here I will give you a hint - It starts with the letter V and then followed by an O then T. Oh heck - I will just tell you - the VOTERS!!!!

Do you see how VOTERS - ALWAYS have a voice in the matter of US Constitutional amendments.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
JakeHanson
Flying Spaghetti Monster Bless America!
02:40 AM on 03/05/2009
The Equal Protection Clause, part of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, provides that "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws". The Equal Protection Clause can be seen as an attempt to secure the promise of the United States' professed commitment to the proposition that "all men are created equal" by empowering the judiciary to enforce that principle against the states.

Funny how stripping the rights of a minority group shoot directly through this clause.