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Karl Giberson, Ph.D

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Why Christians Need a Secular World

Posted: 10/28/11 04:05 PM ET

In a recent op-ed in the New York Times titled "The Evangelical Rejection of Reason," my colleague Randall Stephens and I argued that most of the GOP candidates, reflecting widespread evangelical sensibilities, were effectively rejecting secular knowledge. The argument was essentially an abstract of our new book, "The Anointed: Evangelical Truth in a Secular Age."

The response from leading evangelicals has been very encouraging. It appears that there is widespread concern about rampant anti-intellectualism and many important leaders added their voices to ours. Evangelicals from the fundamentalist end of the spectrum, however, are upset. After all we did suggest that they embraced "simplistic theology, cultural isolationism, and stubborn anti-intellectualism." Their response has been to accuse us of capitulating to secularism and forfeiting any claim to being genuine Christians. Al Mohler was especially critical in his piece "Total Capitulation: The Evangelical Surrender of Truth." In particular he excoriated me a second time for my earlier claim that "I am happy to concede that science does indeed trump religious truth about the natural world."

The common and perhaps too casual juxtaposition of "evangelicalism" and "secularism" -- or even "science" and "religious truth" -- creates the impression that these two worldviews, for lack of a better term, are at odds with each other. Certainly the subtitle to our book suggests this and many of our critics are framing the discussion in those terms. But subtitles and op-eds are rather tight quarters to maneuver complicated arguments about the nature of knowledge claims.

We should reject the idea that knowledge can be divided into two (or any number) of separate realms. "Religious knowledge" and "secular knowledge" are particularly inadequate and even dangerous categories to start with. Such divisions are practical constructions that help us organize the world, but they don't reflect the way the world actually is. An alien anthropologist might conclude that physics and biology are somehow "different and separate" because of the way they function in our universities and laboratories. But we know that the world is not adorned with little flags labeled "biological phenomena" and "physical phenomena" to help us assign the problems to the right department. The arrangement in our great universities where these disciplines are housed in separate buildings, reflects the practical reality that the problems of those disciplines are sufficiently different that people tend to be drawn to one or the other. But we know that there can be no discrete separation, for those disciplines meet constantly to engage problems of optics, joint mechanics, blood pressure and so on. And we know that it would be meaningless to dispute about whether the study of blood pressure or near-sightedness properly belonged to physics or biology.

In the same way -- but far more importantly -- we cannot divide the world on a large scale into "secular" and "religious." A slightly less flawed, but still too simple, knowledge map would be a continuum stretching from "religious knowledge claims" at one end to "anti-religious knowledge claims" at the other with "secular knowledge claims" somewhere in the middle.

Such a continuum, limited because of its one-dimensionality, would better reflect the messy reality of the world as we actually encounter it, rather than the more tidy way we construct it. Such a continuum would also remind us that there are no natural boundaries to types of knowledge and that we should expect to be puzzled as we try to make sense of the world.
The great achievement of modern science has been to move knowledge about the natural world from the religious end of the spectrum to a middle ground that we call, for lack of a better term, secular. But I don't think we should view this as taking knowledge claims from one "side" and giving it to the "enemy," like the Red Sox did when they traded Babe Ruth to the Yankees.

To be secular is to be "non-religious" not "anti-religious." Science requires the acknowledgment of simple facts without regard for their "value" in supporting any grand system. The separation of fact and value is what has empowered the great engine of knowledge-creation we call science. It is another of the important changes wrought by science as it matured. We must be able to pursue simple facts about the world -- the mass of the proton, the mechanism of cell division, the age of the earth, the origin of life, the relationship between humans and other life -- without an a priori assumption that these facts will necessarily support any particular religious worldview.

I see no reason why a religious believer should regard a simple fact as somehow hostile, just because it is a so-called secular claim. The discussion of the planetary status of Pluto, or the veracity of recent claims that neutrinos are exceeding the speed of light are secular discussions, with no obvious religious significance -- and certainly no anti-religious aspect.

This is what secular should mean to religious believers: finding facts without worrying about how they fit into their value system. Such facts can then be analyzed to see whether or not they support a religious worldview but as simple facts they should not be perceived as threatening.
The division of knowledge claims into religious and secular is a simplification that works well for culture warriors eager to demolish one side or the other. Ken Ham's Museum displays are set up to contrast "God's Word" with "Human Reason." But Ham knows this is too simple. Where in this organizational scheme, for example, would we put the claim that protons are heavier than electrons? It doesn't come from "God's Word" so it must be the product of "Human Reason." Does this mean it is the enemy of God's Word?

Hardly.

 
 
 

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11:49 AM on 11/16/2011
The Author writes; ”To be secular is to be "non-religious" not "anti-religious. Science requires the acknowledgment of simple facts without regard for their 'value' in supporting any grand system. The separation of fact and value is what has empowered the great engine of knowledge-creation we call science. It is another of the important changes wrought by science as it matured. We must be able to pursue simple facts about the world -- the mass of the proton, the mechanism of cell division, the age of the earth, the origin of life, the relationship between humans and other life -- without an a priori assumption that these facts will necessarily support any particular religious worldview.” I would agree and add that, We must be able to pursue simple facts about the world without religious interference and biased judgments of some absolute moral values (that remain to be proven).
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11:48 AM on 11/16/2011
The Author (Karl Giberson) writes that, “Evangelicals from the fundamentalist end of the spectrum, (have) embraced "simplistic theology, cultural isolationism, and stubborn anti-intellectualism." From my agnostic point of view, any scriptural religion must be fundamentalist or its authenticity and even validity as a holder of truth, becomes questionable and depleted. And as for “simplistic theology”, since theology is a misnomer for starters, it is simplistic by excellence.
08:11 AM on 11/16/2011
Christians do not need a secular world.
Christians need an IDENTITY.
They do not know who God says they are.
So they run looses goose. As religious people. Instead of true voice in the earth.
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gemmax
07:35 PM on 11/11/2011
I find this article offensive to everyone.It has been awhile since I have read anything from anyone who could sit on the fence so steadily without ever giving us even a hint of their true beliefs. And then to insult others with your faux knowledge of what God is or is not to anyone. Figure out who He is to you and then you might be able to communicate affectively on the subject with others.
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11:35 AM on 11/16/2011
In order to figure out who god(s) is, we need a means of communication; unfortunately there has never been communication between any god and Man. (Principle of Inaccessism).
Unless of course one admits to having supernatural powers with which to communicate with a supernatural god(s). To this date there is no scientific evidence for communication; any scriptural witnessing of such events are not admissible evidence but can only be taken on faith alone.
So, god(s) is whatever suits your fancy; and He is different for each and everyone; unless of course you adhere, voluntarily to an institutionalized religion that dictates who He is.
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PELAGIUS2
Justice belongs to all, or it belongs to none
04:13 PM on 10/31/2011
".......science does indeed trump religious truth about the natural world." The Bible is full of wonderful poetry, and maybe some good advice for living. It's lousy science book though. Certain fundagelicals (borrowed the word from someone else) have painted themselves into a very tiny corner by insisting that the Bible can be taken literally and has no errors. Now how do you get out without leaving footprints in the paint.
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lokitheviking
new triple bottom line ; profit, people, planet
07:56 PM on 11/13/2011
It's a crummy history book also. Easily 90-10 myth-legend to history. Galatians 1:12 Paul admits making most of it up.
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ProofRequired
Taking back the human race, one believer at a time
12:02 PM on 10/31/2011
Some day, science will get us where we need to be. It will answer the question of how life really got started. It won't come soon, but it will come. Religion will then hang on to it's last bastion of authority for a while, but it will finally succumb to the inevitable. It will be a great day for the world, a day that should have already come given the millions of examples of expired religious authority that finally had to surrender to reality. I wish I could be there to witness it.

We are at the point where living by scripture's word is so harmful, that even if there is a god we should be working for humanity as a whole exclusively. It is a big enough job without confusing it with a myriad mythological rules.
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
02:04 PM on 10/31/2011
What makes you think that once science discovers an answer to the question of how life started, that those scientists can eliminate God as the Giver of Life, or even that they can then create life themselves?
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ProofRequired
Taking back the human race, one believer at a time
02:23 PM on 10/31/2011
Maybe science will discover that it actually is some sort of superhuman touch that gave life to the first living cell. But like everything else from scripture that has been proven wrong, such as Earth being the center of the universe, this is probably not the case. It does not mean that scientists will ever be able to create life themselves, but it sure would be interesting if they could.

Wouldn't it be even more fascinating if the first cell came courtesy of a meteor from another planet and we are actually aliens on our own planet? Either way, we are all descendent from that first living cell, this has been proven, so all traditional scripture can be thrown on the trash heap at this point.
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Kirk Job-Sluder
03:30 PM on 10/31/2011
This is a classic god-of-the-gaps argument. Proposing that such a mechanism is likely natural is an inference based on the fact that thus far, we've not discovered any examples of divine intervention that can't be easily explained as natural mechanisms.

Of course, even if we had a complete theory of life, the universe, and everything, we can't exclude the TAG, prime movers, or other philosophical gods.
03:54 AM on 11/01/2011
Proofrequired,

Wow! Are you a prophet? All the ethics and morals that you know of in your life time comes from God. It does not come from man. When you make predictions like you have made in your post, you are doing the same thing that prophets did in the Old Testament.

However, the exception is that you don't know what you are talking about. There is a chasm that separates man from knowing certain truths concerning God and science. You have placed all of your faith in science, and the trouble with science is it won't fill that hole in your soul.

If there is no "God" then it is totally unimportant as to whether we work towards humanity as a whole exclusively or otherwise. I know it sounds good for you to say it, and it makes you look like a real caring individual...but, it's all nonsense.

But, you will be there to "witness"...but, not what you think.
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07:05 AM on 11/01/2011
" All the ethics and morals that you know of in your life time comes from God."

This is clearly nonsense. Once again we see how self regarding religious people are. It is, of course, far more likely that religions incorporated the moral codes of the societies in which they arose than that some imaginary deity handed them down. And societies would have had moral codes to start with because such codes are essential for cohesion in any society.

"If there is no "God" then it is totally unimportan­t as to whether we work towards humanity as a whole exclusivel­y or otherwise"

Nonsense. There is no need for God in order for humanity to work together. Enlightened self interest alone would be sufficient for that.
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ProofRequired
Taking back the human race, one believer at a time
12:09 PM on 11/01/2011
God knows of very little when it comes to morals and ethics. The 10 commandments are laughably ignorant with the first four having nothing to do with morals or ethics and only satisfying a clearly jealous and insecure god. The last is even worse, placing women in the same bag as other objects of male ownership. The other 5 are known to the most ignorant of children and were all part of other religions of the time. And why is that? Because human beings created them all.

I have not placed all my faith in science. I have witnessed what science has accomplished and by logical deduction can conclude it will accomplish much more.

I am not too worried about what I will witness later, by the way, but I am positive you will witness the exact same thing.
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Cole 33
Careful. We don't want to learn from this.
12:02 PM on 10/31/2011
We don't need a Secular world, as if it's something we produce. We LIVE in a secular world, religion exists within it. We live in a secular world regardless of whether we choose to or not. What we decide to believe within it is up to us.

People like to believe more than they like to know, because we like that sense of certainty within ourselves, and really religion was formed out of a sense of uncertainty about the world around us, and it was a good way of feeling certain.
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
02:06 PM on 10/31/2011
Cole 33,

I can't help but notice that you put forward a lot of theories & conjecture about why other people believe in God. Have you conducted any research on this topic? What is the source of these theories about why people believe? How many of us have you actually asked?
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Cole 33
Careful. We don't want to learn from this.
03:01 PM on 10/31/2011
I'm not sure I put forth "a lot of theories" about why people believe in god(S).

I say that in plural so we can be on the same page of understanding that your Deity is not the only deity people in the world believe in or have believed in.

But, if you'll re-read my post, I don't mention gods at all. I was talking about peoples sense of certainty, and the need for that sense wherever that lies.

My sense of certainty comes from knowledge, things I can KNOW. Because of that, I find my sense of certainty in Science, Math, History, and I assume you do as well to some degree.

The difference I think is concerning that which we can't know, and I think that people don't like that sense of uncertainty in those topics, why do we exist, what happens when we die, etc. So people like to believe things they can't know, and it provides a sense of certainty.
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whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
04:08 PM on 10/31/2011
I have been wanting to ask you a question. Fr. Richard Rohr --about the only religious dude I even consider anymore--said in one of his lectures that one does not need to believe in god to experience god. Granted I don't think his conception of god is orthodox at all in terms of his religion, but I wonder what your take on this might be.
03:55 AM on 10/31/2011
Evangelicals will typically reject objective, rational, critical thinking because it’s ungodly. The Bible teaches believers to avoid leaning on their own understanding (Prov. 3:5) because it would be utilizing the wisdom of the wise, the understanding of the prudent (1Cor.1:19) and the wisdom of this world which is foolishness to God (1 Cor.3:19).
11:36 AM on 10/31/2011
On the contrary. While the verse you cited is valid, scripture does not call us to disengage our brain to accept it. God's methodology may not make sense to us, but to conclude it requires us to "reject objective, rational, critical thinking" is in err.

What are the fronts in this regard? Creationism -vs- evolution? Global warming -vs- climate change? Age of the earth?

What I think the verse you are citing refers to is the message of the cross. I mean how foolish is it for God to save humanity by becoming an infant to die on a cross? What sense does that make to the rational man? Throughout history God uses methods that make us go "huh?" But they are always and without exception there to teach us, guide us, and to do for us what we can't do ourselves.

Engage in whatever debates you want about the 'science.' The only way to know for sure is to ask the one who created science... God. Unfortunately some of these debates won't be answered conclusively this side of the grave. The bigger question is how to get there to ask Him!
04:30 AM on 11/01/2011
Evolution, global warming and the earth’s age aren’t really fronts. The only people who take issue with them are fundamentalists. Other issues have been a heliocentric universe, hygienic precautions in disease control, women's use of anesthesia in childbirth, lending money at interest, ventilation of mine gas to prevent asphyxiation, emancipation from slavery and women's equality. A complete list would scroll right off the screen.
03:35 PM on 10/31/2011
Az0th - Thank you for the stereotypical demeaning you give Christians in general from passages that you used out of their context. I can see when it come to objective, rational,and critical thinking, you are going to lead the pack for the secular lynch mob.
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PELAGIUS2
Justice belongs to all, or it belongs to none
04:19 PM on 10/31/2011
And evangelicals don't cherry pick verses? Please quit trying to play the victim, it's getting old. There aren't going to be any lynch mobs, especially secular ones.
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gemmax
08:12 AM on 11/13/2011
Yes, that's right on- thank Az0th and thank God, because every time this occurs God responds.
03:46 AM on 10/31/2011
“Most of the GOP candidates, reflecting widespread evangelical sensibilities, were effectively rejecting secular knowledge.” Well, yes. Biblical faith's substance of things "hoped for" and evidence of things "not seen" is a rejection of reason, critical thinking and contrary evidence, which defines most of the candidates.
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gemmax
08:16 AM on 11/13/2011
Please list the contrary evidence of which you speak.
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lokitheviking
new triple bottom line ; profit, people, planet
10:53 PM on 10/30/2011
Religion isn't knowledge. It's faith and cultural ritual. Why does a Secular World still need it ?
Taking responsibility for ourselves and leaving superstitious fears behind . We're still not ready for that ? Too bad. More tribal conflict over the names of gods untill we are.
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gemmax
08:17 AM on 11/13/2011
'Why does the secular world still need it it?" Have a good look around you. Listen to the world news. That should be answer enough for you.
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lokitheviking
new triple bottom line ; profit, people, planet
07:49 PM on 11/13/2011
Yes many still look for simple answers to complex problems. Gods and their self-appointed representaives can still be seen as refuge from the storm of bad news. Making our own good news means taking off the mental manacles though.
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08:34 PM on 10/30/2011
Around the time of the American Revolution, the German philosopher Immanuel Kant taught us that fact can be differentiated from value. He used the terms "phenomena" for fact and "noumenal" for value. His formulation was then borrowed by Hegel who extended it to the holistic conception of Absolute Spirit. For their times, those were powerful and helpful systems of ideas. But that was 200 years ago.

Today the aspect of human experience that those philosophers and this author wish to isolate in the realm of fact for many of us belongs to the realm of religion. Ours is a religion of belonging to this world. We are not aliens from some other world or banished from the Garden of Eden. We are where we belong, and if we are religious it is in terms of the whole of things.

Science and religion share the world of value. Kant told us that while speculation and imagination need not be confined to science, neither are they allowed to contradict science. That is today's religious challenge.
04:00 PM on 10/31/2011
Nice post! I am a "scientist" and I am religious. Contrary to what many think, the two are harmonious.

Until the secular side of science truly understands the "spiritual" perspective (not necessarily agree with it, but at least understand it), I presume many will continue with their stereotypical denegration of "believers" as they continue with their soi-doisant superiority. A scientific model of any type, based on this biggoted type of perscpective, is flawed from the start. This is but one challenge for the secular side of science today.
05:10 PM on 10/31/2011
Thank you! I was beginning to wonder why there weren't any more posters who are both believers AND earned their pay from the scientific world. I am a writer, but I am married to a wonderful scientist who works for NIF at the LLNL in California. Contrary to what a lot of people might think, there are many Christians working in the scientific field. We live, work, think, reason and have a love for God all at the same time...we are very capable of living in a secular world. The facts associated with science have never been an issue of conflict regarding belief. Like you said - "A scientific model of any type, based on this biggoted type of perscpecti­ve, is flawed from the start. This is but one challenge for the secular side of science today."

Thank you again for your thoughts...and I look forward to reading more posts from you. Fanned.
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Gerald Brogdon
05:58 PM on 10/30/2011
Definitions are important in any conversation. A worldview is a way of looking at experiences, facts and observations through the lens of your beliefs. In short form, it is the overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world. I'm going to define algorithm as the step-by-step process that engines of knowledge find truth or find facts. In one case, the engine only can find consistency with past observations and facts and in another case, the engine finds the perceived truth within the limits established by some specific parameters. There are many worldviews and at least, three algorithms. The three algorithms are jury, science and faith. The jury algorithm limits the evidence to certain parameters (time, known evidence, acceptable evidence, etc.) and its objective is to find perceived truth of the question presented to the peers. This is a common algorithm used by parents, jurors, bosses and others in determining knowledge. The science algorithm limits the evidence to evidence that can be replicated by peers (humankind) and its objective is to find consistency with past evidence and observations. This evidence cannot include supernatural events because those events cannot be replicated by humankind. The scientific method also never locates truth because the theory (the best that science can offer) can be disproven by just one fact from any point of time (obviously including the future). Obviously, the scientific method can never claim that a theory is true because science is never omniscient.
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Gerald Brogdon
06:06 PM on 10/30/2011
The faith algorithm establishes God's Word as true evidence but is limited by what truth, omniscient God has revealed and its objective is to translate God's mission to humankind. Many use all three algorithms daily in their life. There is no contradiction in USING all the algorithms. The problem occurs when the different algorithms display different conclusions (contradiction). Which algorithm do you accept? Ignoring the jury algorithm, the resolution usually is between the science and faith algorithms. Many scientists and some faith believers discount or totally ignore the faith algorithm; therefore, they decide any contradiction by accepting only the science algorithm. Those without belief have no problem because the faith algorithm is nonexistent. Those with belief have to revise their belief worldview's perception to account for what science has found and change their perceived understanding of what God "has really said". Since science has reversed itself on many occasions, this may require a "bouncing back and forth" about the believers’ views of what God "actually said.
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ihsxps
Î˜Î­ÎżÏ‚, Î›ÏŒÎłÎżÏ‚ ÎșαÏ ÎŁÎżÏ†ÎŻÎ±
02:09 AM on 10/31/2011
How does the "faith algorithm" establish God's Word as true evidence? We have received divine truths from many different prophets, shamans, poets and mythologists from many different traditions. Their evidence is technically heresay.

How are we to resolve conflicts between the divine utterances of different cultures and traditions, or within our own tradition?

By what "algorithm" can we establish the metaphysical usefulness of any particular faith algorithm?
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Gerald Brogdon
06:08 PM on 10/30/2011
Finally, those who value the faith algorithm over the science algorithm, will stay with their worldview and wait for science to come to the truth. Is this reasonable? Since God is presupposed to be omniscient and loving according to the faith algorithm, then it would be reasonable to assume that God would not provide lies. That requires that science would need to "bounce back and forth" and ultimately agree with the truth that God provides. Science, not being omniscient, and historically have already proven that they will be willing to change positions at the drop of a "fact" is a likely candidate for change. If you add the fact that science begins with an assumption of first principles (Aristotle) and zero knowledge, it is still relatively young (meaning that the knowledge it has today is very tiny to what it will know in the past), it appears very reasonable to hold the faith algorithm as the first priority.
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ConfuciusSay-
Aglets: their purpose is sinister.
12:49 AM on 10/31/2011
Paragraphs would go a long way, but fanned anyway- a long and well written series.
researcher
researcher
05:00 PM on 10/30/2011
"This is what secular should mean to religious believers: finding facts without worrying about how they fit into their value system"

when your group of intellectuals decided to define your theories as facts you took on the realm of religion.

just heard a preacher this morning state: "if it is not in the bible it is not a fact"

there are many aspects of some religious beliefs that are far advanced in its understanding of reality of your so called theories as facts.

but this article bought much comfort to the materialists and for that you need to be congratulated. you reinforced their existing beliefs. ie ego thing.

the religious do the same with their articles that appeal to those that have the same system of beliefs.

the religious and the materialist have at least one thing in common. they do not like to think or study or research outside their established beliefs. ie human ego thing wanting to be known for knowing.

for the materialist one unexplained paranormal phenomenon and their entire materialistic system of beliefs even their so called facts comes crashing down.

for the christian one moment of understanding that the idea of a sacrifice to appease an angry wrathful jealous god of unconditional love does not pass the simplist of logic tests brings down their entire system of beliefs.

both sides have to become very defensive if anyone even suggests their beliefs are based in an unawareness of reality.
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OneFish
Various and assorted mutualistic microbial buddies
07:09 PM on 10/30/2011
"for the materialis­t one unexplaine­d paranormal phenomenon and their entire materialis­tic system of beliefs even their so called facts comes crashing down."

I don't think that this is correct. An unexplained phenomenon is exciting, an opportunity to learn something new...as long as it is not simply mass delusion and is an actual external event.
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Cole 33
Careful. We don't want to learn from this.
11:31 AM on 10/31/2011
"the religious and the materialis­t have at least one thing in common. they do not like to think or study or research outside their establishe­d beliefs. ie human ego thing wanting to be known for knowing."

You've got it backwards. The materialist belief is a RESULT of the thinking and the study and research, not before. The Religious is a result of years of conditioned belief by parents removed from study and research. Children in sunday school aren't researching the historical accuracy of the Noah Story,they are being told the story is true at a time when their trust in what adults tell them is held as authority.
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
02:22 PM on 10/31/2011
And you are assuming that no one applies adult intelligence & reason to what they might have learned in Sunday School. This is not what the research on the development of faith says. See this research for example:

James W. Fowler (1981) Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development & the Quest for Meaning. New York: HarperCollins.

You are giving us nothing but your conjecture about why people believe in God.
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
01:02 PM on 10/30/2011
Karl & Randall,

You make perfect sense! Thanks for this article & for your timely book.
09:59 AM on 10/30/2011
I think you have set up a false analogy when you compare the difference between physics and biology to the difference between religious and secular knowledge. Both physics and biology follow the same rules for discovery and verification. This is not true with religious and secular knowledge as you have defined it. There are no rules available for the verification of religious knowledge.

This distinction also negates the continuum idea of knowledge that you presented. A continuum implies that there is a range of values that don't have a disjoint at any place along the way. However, when it comes to religious and secular knowledge, there is such a disjunctive point. It takes place when the facts in question stop being subject to disproof. Every 'fact' identified through secular processes is subject to revision or rejection based on future discovery. Unless religious knowledge reaches that particular point, placing on a continuum with secular knowledge is not going to be accurate.
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ihsxps
Î˜Î­ÎżÏ‚, Î›ÏŒÎłÎżÏ‚ ÎșαÏ ÎŁÎżÏ†ÎŻÎ±
02:24 AM on 10/31/2011
I was thinking the same thing. On a spectrum between Atheism and Pantheism, where would we put Science and Philosophy?
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OneFish
Various and assorted mutualistic microbial buddies
01:09 PM on 10/31/2011
Science is completely orthogonal to religion.
Philosophy is almost orthogonal to religion.
Your axes of religion should be monotheism and pantheism.
Atheism is also orthogonal to religion, i.e. it has a religion component of ZERO.
Irrelevantism, my favorite stance, is the value of infinity on the atheist axis. So far from the religion plane as to regard religion as totally irrelevant.
All fun stuff.