iPhone app iPad app Android phone app Android tablet app More

Featuring fresh takes and real-time analysis from HuffPost's signature lineup of contributors
Lawrence Lessig

Lawrence Lessig

Posted: May 11, 2010 12:11 PM

Obama's Pick of Kagan Recognizes the Difference Between 4 and 5

What's Your Reaction:

Liberals are angry that the president has let them down -- again. They believe they are entitled to a 21st Century Brennan, or Warren, or Justice Thurgood Marshall. They believe their work electing this man of "hope" justifies a new justice who would give the progressives hope. And they've been whipped up into believing that his nominee to the Supreme Court, Elena Kagan, is not that 21st Century liberal icon.

I find myself torn by this debate. I have not hidden my own disappointment about the limits in this presidency. Obama promised to "change the way Washington works," by which he meant (as he explained again and again), change the power of special interests to block or divert reform. Yet the last year has shown nothing except reform blocked or diverted by special interests, and the president has yet to even acknowledge that this is a problem that he intends to solve. He has executed the presidency Hillary Clinton promised -- maybe better, maybe worse, but no doubt different from the change he said we could believe in.

But neither do I share the fear of progressives about the judgment or values of Elena Kagan. I've known her longer and better than those who question her. I think the suggestion that she's a Bush-Cheney monster is just disqualifying hyperbole.

Yet of course, my attestations are not evidence, and as I've said before, I don't believe they should suffice to eliminate anyone's questions. But I do think these questions are obscuring a more fundamental point about this nomination which I do believe this president was absolutely right to recognize.

Barack Obama is appointing the 4th justice to the non-right-wing wing of the Supreme Court, not the 5th. If the appointment is successful, it will produce decisions with at least 5 votes that are closer to Obama's view of the Constitution than to Bush's.

So what kind of 4th Justice is likely to produce that 5th vote?

To hear the liberals talk about it, it sounds like they think we need a Thomas or Scalia of the Left. A bold, if sometimes bullying, extremist that marks off clearly the difference between the Left and the Right. Someone we could rally around. A new hero for an ideology too often too afraid to assert itself.

But nobody who understands the actual dynamics of the Supreme Court could actually believe that such a strategy would produce 5 votes. No doubt it would produce brilliant dissents. No doubt it would give the Keith Olbermann's of the world great copy. But it would fail to achieve the single thing we ought to be focusing on: How to build "coalitions," as Massachusetts Chief Justice Margaret Marshall put it to NPR yesterday, of five. Not compromises, not triangulations, but opinions that work hard to cobble from this diverse court a rule of principle that our side could be proud of.

The kind of justice who could do this well is not the justice who goes in with guns blazing. The lesson of Scalia's tenure is one of alienating his most likely friends, not forging strong alliances. Souter, Kennedy, and O'Connor all came to avoid following Scalia's lead by default. He set the extreme. They were not interested in extremes.

Instead, the kind of justice who could do this well is one who was practiced in "listening, before disagreeing," as the President put it yesterday. One who could disarm, through trust and respect, so as to get the other side to at least listen.

Whatever uncertainty there is in Kagan's past, there is no uncertainty about this quality in her. There is no doubt that she can do this well. That doesn't mean she's going to flip the other side on each case. It just means that she has the chance. And when one imagines the career that this 50 year old justice could have, it means she has the chance to profoundly change the direction of the actual decisions of this Court -- through the hard work of persuasion, not the self-righteous work of outraged dissents.

Thus the decision the president had to make was not just whether a fight for a clearly liberal justice could be won. It was also whether such a fight, even if won, would produce something more than romantic dissents. And as he rightly recognized, even if he could win the battle to confirm someone at the extreme, that would simply mean losing the war to win opinions on this Court.

That's what appointing the 4th Justice means. If the president get's a chance to appoint the 5th, then a different strategy makes sense. Let the 5th be the Scalia of the Left -- Pam Karlan, or you pick your liberal hero. But right now, what we need someone who can help move a divided Court, recognizing that we still stand in the minority, and our profound desire to feel good is no excuse for giving up a real chance for justice.

 
 
 

Follow Lawrence Lessig on Twitter: www.twitter.com/lessig

 
 
  • Comments
  • 396
  • Pending Comments
  • 0
  • View FAQ
Comments are closed for this entry
View All
Favorites
Bloggers
Recency  | 
Popularity
Page: 1 2 3 4 5  Next ›  Last »  (7 total)
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
kimk3
07:24 PM on 05/16/2010
The only coalition Prez O seems to like is with the right and the far right. Mr. Lessig, you are diminishing yourself by trying to make an argument for your friend.
06:07 PM on 05/16/2010
The problem with your argument is you think there are justices in the 5 majority you think Kagan can move. The Obama and Democratic leadership style of movement with the other side is to cave and pass legislation that for all practical purposes make problems worse; witness that fraud of a health insurance bill. The only justice of the five that actually gives a damn about the constitution or quite frankly America is Kennedy. He has steadily moved to the right as the conservative majority has taken firm control after O'Connor left. If memory serves, Kennedy frequently sided with the conservative majority with O'Connor on the court, and magically was crowned the "swing vote" on the court. Really! Mr. Lessig, if you're naive enough to think Kennedy, after years of standing with the conservative majority on the big issues of the day (Citizens United, abortion, affirmative action), if you think a moderate jurist with no real deeply held political philosophy, will have the stomach to fight to move these hardened justices on the right, you're smoking something. We have seen how this type of moderate, non-ideological politics on the left has devastated America with one bad policy after another. I don't know about you, but I've had enough of this moderate bullshit. We need real liberals and progressives in congress, the white house, and the courts. Unless there is real push back against the conservatism ruling most of our politics, we will continue to see the death of America!
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
nolabels
08:45 AM on 05/16/2010
To those of you who have not studied the law, powerful dissents are not meaningless. Being on the side of 4 but writing persuasively could make a big difference down the line and can influence lower courts/legislatures.

From Kennedy's opinion in Lawrence v. Texas which overturned Bowers v. Hardwick only 7 years after that decision was handed down:
"JUSTICE STEVENS' analysis, in our view, should have been controlling in Bowers and should control here. "

Not only was Steven's progressive view in Bowers persuasive enough to be the majority view in an overturning case only 7 years later (very rare) but it also wasn't some watered down, middle of the road, one-size-fits-nobody nonsense that I think much of the Democratic party has come to term reasonableness. No, Steven's view eventually won and it was a powerful, persuasive, yet unmitigatedly progressive view. The law is a slow process. Impassioned dissents have become law time and time again. Frankly, in many ways, a powerful progressive dissenter will have a greater long-term impact than an opinion-by-committee centrist with an unclear direction. In any event, the narrative that Lessig has set up above is a fantasy world-view and not to be taken seriously.
10:20 AM on 05/16/2010
The comment writer is clearly not gay, and is also terribly misinformed. We endured the fallout from the 1986 Bowers decision for 17 years, not 7, after it was decided on a 5 to 4 vote. Powell's vote in that case was particularly soft, he later admitted in interviews, and perhaps a Kagan on the court might have made a difference. I recall being moved by Stevens dissent in that case, but it was very cold comfort, given that it was on the losing side. It's hard to believe that his passionate statements at the time mattered much or hastened the eventual reversal of the decision in Lawrence.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
nolabels
10:46 AM on 05/16/2010
Correction: Lawrence was ruled on in 2003, not 1993. Bowers (1986) was overturned after 17 years, not 7. I am sorry for that mistake. It still was a relatively quick time (objectively speaking - not in terms of pain felt by people who were persecuted for simply loving each other) in which the court made a complete about face.

To the other point (from a reply to my comment which has not yet been posted), I am not advocating that we should take comfort in a strong dissent. What I am saying is that Stevens' dissent in Bowers provided cover and reasoning to allow Kennedy to more emphatically overturn Bowers in 2003. The court is unlikely to make shifts like that unless they have evidence and reasoning to suggest that the original majority had it wrong.

I am not gay, nor was I conscious of sexuality in 1986 but I do understand why that decision was so upsetting to you. I hardly think it is fair to call me misinformed because a flubbed the dates, for which I am sorry (I hadn't had my caffeine yet and was overly anxious to attack Lessig's nonsense).
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
nolabels
08:06 AM on 05/16/2010
If this is the best support she can muster from the left...well, she doesn't really have any support from us at all. Kennedy is his own man, not a jurisprudential snake to be charmed by Kagan's flute of reasonable analysis.

Just say it Larry, you have nothing of substance to add to the debate. You just want to support your friend. Good for you. In the meantime, you are misleading people and that is just not cool.

The only people that support this woman (at the leadership level) are DLC corporatedem hacks who are more concerned with supporting "the team" than standing on solid progressive principles.
photo
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
ckfan
Conduct business honestly; spend money wisely
06:53 PM on 05/16/2010
There's a major flaw in your argument. . . being a Democrat doesn't mean you are in favor of "solid" progressive principles. "The team" as you put it, represent the base of the Democratic party. Progressives are not the base of the Democratic party. They are a valuable voice in the party, but based on sheer numbers, they are not the base. Progressives hate to hear this argument, but it's true. If Progressives were the base, then Howard Dean would have one at least ONE primary.

The last few Democratic presidents in my lifetime were not Progressive. Not even close. In their hearts, maybe, but not in their governing.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
nolabels
07:59 PM on 05/16/2010
Well ckfan, as I told you the other day, we agree on some things but we don't agree on everything.

As you can see from my above post, I am more concerned with the normative. I know you are more concerned with practical or descriptive. My point will always be that you can never reach an ideal if you never articulate and fight for it. So, I will stick with pushing the envelope (in this case pushing for a Justice whose dissents may not change much now but do become the law in decades to come - when people wake up - as they did with the Lawrence decision).

If you are fine with a conservative Democratic party and an ultra-conservative Republican party, that is you prerogative. We have a serious disagreement if you think that that is how this two party system should be structured. It is the back and forth between both sides that keeps this country on the right track - not the constant tilting into conservative extremism.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
nolabels
07:59 PM on 05/16/2010
The bottom line is the Democratic party does not run on supporting the interests of the powerful and the corporations. Generally, it is quite the opposite. The Democratic party claims to be fighting for the little guy; claims to be about looking towards the future; claims to support education; claims to believe in regulation were the powerful enjoy privileges at the expense of average Americans and the well-being of our nation in general. If you are fine with them lying about those things, ok. Don't mind me while I try to inject a little more of the "missing" side to this pretend two-sided debate.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
06:19 AM on 05/16/2010
sorry folks, but Kagan does not have judicial temperament.
her history of screaming tantrums at underlings speaks volumes.
good luck, one more Obama miss-step.
photo
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
ckfan
Conduct business honestly; spend money wisely
06:54 PM on 05/16/2010
Yeah, your post is sorry.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
kemstone
Just another opinionated nobody.
03:21 AM on 05/16/2010
As much as I'd like to just accept the "trust me, she's one of us" argument, even you admit that this isn't enough.

But I definitely don't buy the argument that she's going to be able to sway some of the other justices on the court over to the liberal side. Roberts, Alito, Thomas and Scalia will NEVER be convinced to change their opinion. As for Kennedy, it's unrealistic to think that this woman is going to have such a profound influence over him that it'll swing the court back to the left.

What worries me is that even if she is a liberal, all signs indicate that she's not as liberal as Stevens. Replacing both Souter and Stevens with more "centrist" justices will, by default, move the court to the right. The best that can be said for Obama's picks is that had a republican president made the nominations, the rightward swing would be far more drastic.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
nolabels
08:08 AM on 05/16/2010
That is the best you can say about a lot of Obama's actions and that line is wearing thin.
09:49 AM on 05/16/2010
Agree entirely. When I voted for Obama I thought I was voting Democratic. My mistake.
03:54 PM on 05/16/2010
That's exactly right. "Trust me" does not work for me any more. It's amazing that anyone of her accomplishments could not have taken a position on critical issues. Frankly, that alone would concern me.

Obama deserves an Oscar for his stance against lobbyists and special interests during his campaign. Goldman Sacks is solidly in place in his administration (including Kagan) as pointed out in the following websites:

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/43559

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/46267
06:29 PM on 05/16/2010
You're correct, to trust Obama at this point is ludicrous. He has used up all of his mulligans and now must earn the trust he seeks. For many reasons I don't trust this appointment or Obama, but mainly because of the old addage, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".Obama would be the best Republican president in the last 30 years, but he is a Democrat. Once again Progressives and Liberals are screwed! We have no one to blame but ourselves. To watch Democrats fall in line behind Obama for fear we might damage him electorally, well that's just bullshit. We criticized republicans for unquestioningly falling in line with Bush and the Republicans, and now too many dems are doing the same. To hell with that, we are putting Obama and the Democratic leadership on notice, we are no longer your howler monkeys! We will no longer be your patsies and jump when you say jump. We will no longer be quiet. It is time you earn our support and nothing less will do! If you lose in November, it will be by your own hands, because you failed to govern for the people who voted for you in Nov. 2006 and 2008! Hope the banksters and other industries you govern for can muster enough votes for you to maintain your hold on power. The ship is sinking, whether by Democratic or Republican hands, but it won't be by my blind support any longer.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SallyBaughn
In a broken country there is nothing left to steal
09:17 PM on 05/16/2010
If politicians won't do it by themselves, the voters MUST limit their terms and bring some sanity back to this country.

Now I really understand why Congress voted to limit Presidential terms after Roosevelt. The Congress (both House and Senate) do nothing, have name recognition, and stay in office year after year because there are no limits on them. You may try to be a good citizen and research the candidates; but unless you're in business or politics with them, you really have no clue about who they are and why they want a powerful position.

Did anybody ever wonder why the Constitution specifically sets 2, 4, and 6 years for the various components of our governments? Did anybody ever consider that since they were very specific about term limits the Fathers may have had an idea that making a career in government would not be a good thing for either the politicians or the country?

Bob Bennett should have gone home to work and live many years ago. So should Arlen Specter. John Boehner. Nancy Pelosi. My god, poor old Robert Byrd whose final days in the Senate have shown that his concern for the country is outweighed by his concern for holding the position. I even pitied Strom Thurmond who was literally drooling and incompetent at 101 and still held his seat in the Senate.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
appacom
Still fired up!
05:38 PM on 05/12/2010
Exactly. Thank you very much for sane commentary.
03:32 PM on 05/12/2010
What constrained and short term reasoning-Kagan is 50 and the court may change many times over while she is on it. No one knows how long the present justices will be around. Supposedly she has some magic to produce a fifth vote in this current court. Just like Obama got all those Republicians to vote for health care.
How about looking for a fine jurist for the next thirty years. What a weak reason for nominating your "friend."
04:13 PM on 05/12/2010
The consensus-building skill is not ONLY a short-term benefit, and is part of what makes a fine jurist. As you say, no one knows what the make-up of the court will be over the next decades. That means the skill may be important for any part(s) of that tenure.

Nominating a "friend" (ie. someone you know well) may be one of the best ways to get someone whose judgment you can rely on for 30 years.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
GrannyForObama
09:08 AM on 05/12/2010
I think the point is well made. Scalia, Alito, Thomas and Roberts are virtually non-persuadable but Justice Kennedy is the swing vote. He would be best persuaded by solid argument and careful consensus building not by an ideologue on the left or right. I understand and sympathize with the longing for a boldly progressive Justice but if you carefully analyze what is necessary in this Court at this time to create a majority it is clear we need someone who can competently create a tipping point and not a "rock star" Liberal who would be a celebrity and not a persuader. Since we live with the consequences of these decisions for a long, long time, I believe it be far better to have someone like Elena Kagan.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
MrWebster
Moderate this.
09:42 AM on 05/12/2010
I don't get why everybody thinks Kennedy can be persuaded. He has voted for some of the worst decisions of the right wing court. Didn't he vote with the majority against Gore in 2000? Very weak justification to put Kagan on the court.
04:00 PM on 05/12/2010
In the Rehnquist court Kennedy and O'Connor were the swing votes. That means they sometimes voted with the right wing, and sometimes for more moderate or progressive positions. Read Kennedy's majority opinion in Romer v. Evans (overturning an anti-gay amendment to the Colorado Constitution) for an example. Since O'Connor's departure, Kennedy has become a a reliable vote with the right wing. No one knows whether that can be changed, and the only way to know is to try.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Tena
09:07 AM on 05/12/2010
Thank you.

I've juat about given up on thinking either the left or the right is ever going to quit fighting and start fiixing what is wrong with the country.

In the first place, the SCOTUS is not supposed to be a partisan battle ground. As a lawyer I'm just appalled that both sides want someone who will give them what they want in their own personal laundry list of ideologies.

Kagan obviously is brilliant and that's what matters on the SCOTUS. It is not Congress and the 3d Branch is not supposed to be about right and left. The Rule of Law is not partisan. It destroys the integrity of the SCOTUS to make it all about pet issues and finding someone who will guarantee the results that someone wants due to their ideology.

Im so sick of ideologues trying to run things - that's how we got into this mess in the first place.
12:52 PM on 05/12/2010
How do you conclude she's brilliant? I must have the wrong definition of stupid.

GENERAL KAGAN: I will repeat what I said, Justice Scalia: For 100 years this Court, faced with many opportunities to do so, left standing the legislation that is at issue in this case — first the contribution limits, then the expenditure limits that came in by way of Taft-Hartley — and then of course in Austin specifically approved those limits.

JUSTICE SCALIA: I don’t understand what you are saying. I mean, we are not a self — self-starting institution here. We only disapprove of something when somebody asks us to. And if there was no occasion for us to approve or disapprove, it proves nothing whatever that we didn’t disapprove it.

GENERAL KAGAN: Well, you are not a self-starting institution. But many litigants brought many cases to you in 1907 and onwards and in each case this Court turns down, declined the opportunity, to invalidate or otherwise interfere with this legislation.

JUSTICE KENNEDY: But that judgment was validated by Buckley’s contribution-expenditure line. And you’re correct if you look at contributions, but this is an expenditure case. And I think that it doesn’t clarify the situation to say that for100 years — to suggest that for 100 years we would have allowed expenditure limitations, which in order to work at all have to have a speaker-based distinction, exemption from media, content-based distinction, time-based distinction. We’ve never allowed that.

Myra
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
nolabels
08:16 AM on 05/16/2010
Can't we all just get along? Well, actually, apparently, no, we can't. American history is full of ideologues on either side. How we got here is when one ideological wing decided to give up every fight before it began. There is nothing wrong with a little back and forth. If Democrats could prove that they could ram very progressive policies down the throats of the Republicans, the Republicans would wake up and start working with them. As it is, Democrats give away the store to the Republicans without even being asked for it. Why should Republicans soften their current hard line? They are winning and our country is losing. Let's worry about bipartisanship after we right this ship.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
08:22 AM on 05/12/2010
Ms. Kagan may well be a fine, subtle future justice on the SCOTUS, but I don't find the article's logic at all persuasive. The era of consensus and mediation that the author invokes is, I believe, long gone, even on the SCOTUS. I don't see the so-called conservatives on the court moving along any decision-making path but the one they've generally kept to. Nobody -- no matter how persuasive or civil -- is going to talk them out of their firmly held views. What I'm suggesting is that since that's probably the case, the President might as well appoint whomever he finds best. Only a genuine 5-4 or greater liberal majority is likely ever to produce the decisions liberals want to see.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
JimR
10:36 AM on 05/12/2010
"The era of consensus and mediation that the author invokes is, I believe, long gone, "

So we give up trying, and give in to mindless ideology and partisan attacks? How much longer are we going to last as a country if we do that?
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
03:09 PM on 05/12/2010
Your extrapolation of my view is completely false and an effect of the very phenomenon you cite. First of all, we're talking about the SCOTUS here, not a mindless, screaming rabble. Even if we want to broaden the point to cover the public sphere, you're equally wrong because you equate attempting to achieve a strong governing majority through the electoral process with "mindless ideology and partisan attacks." If you see that as being a necessary equation, the fault lies with you and your bogus attempt to get beyond the basic political outlooks and achieve some godlike "third way," not with those who would advocate their views in a civil, firm manner and then act upon them if they win. Anybody with a functioning brain should be able to see the results of "negotiating" with the Republican minority now in Congress: to negotiate and compromise at any length with those who won't reciprocate in good faith is quite simply to prove that one has no business governing. I'm glad the president seems to have figured out that lesson thanks to the health insurance reform difficulties he ran into.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
nolabels
08:18 AM on 05/16/2010
There is a time and a place for playing nice with the other side - this isn't either.
08:11 AM on 05/12/2010
This right on, and exactly what I've been thinking (with the exception that I do not know Kagan).
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
08:11 AM on 05/12/2010
Sure. Scalia, Thomas and Roberts will listen to the sweet voice of reason. Get out of the Ivory tower once in a while.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
nolabels
08:19 AM on 05/16/2010
Or the insane asylum.
08:04 AM on 05/12/2010
How to build "coalitions," ... Not compromises, not triangulations...

LOL. sounds like lame weasel words. How's that compromising with the Right working out for Mr. President? Of course, it may be a cynical way to get exactly what he wants, but it makes him appear a patsy.

Was it Sen Tom Harkin who said, "How come the Conservatives get a Conservative, and we get a question mark?"
08:12 AM on 05/12/2010
the conservatives have the majority because of Kennedy, not Scalia.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Sioen
Teacher. Traveler. Volunteer.
07:55 AM on 05/12/2010
I think this is mostly nonsense, frankly, as much as I like Lawrence Lessig some of the time. He sets up a false dichotomy; you don't only have "the self-righteous work of outraged dissents" on one side and some amazing principled listenr who can disarm and build trust so we end up with decisions embodying "a rule of principle that our side could be proud of."

In actual day-to-day work, people and arguments, especially highly intellectual ones, are much more complicated than that. There is no reason to believe that principled, strong, even occasionally strident ideologies don't come from people who also can build trust and influence each other. To set that up as opposites-only is absurd.

There's a whole bunch of dignified, sensible, high-flying words in this piece, all intended to rationalize NOT putting on the Court someone who stands firmly behind the principles and values of the millions who are the reason Barack Obama was elected.

To that, I say, ppppphhhhht. (And every day, it seems less likely I will be voting for a major party in 2010 or 2012. I see what it gets me.)
08:13 AM on 05/12/2010
ok, so provide an example. Seems to me the last coalition builder was O'connor.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Sioen
Teacher. Traveler. Volunteer.
05:48 AM on 05/14/2010
I don't believe there is any real coalition-building possible on this court, at least not in some long-term way. The reading I've done about the past few years, it appears that justices get swayed by people making forceful, substantive legal arguments -- justices on one side or the other, being swayed from the other side.

If they hear a compelling legal argument, even if it goes against their ideology, I get the sense some of these folks will listen to that. I also have hard evidence some of them will not; just read some of the scathing dissents.

But all of that has been anecdotal, articles talking about the court. No one of us knows really how these folks operate day-to-day on cases.

I just don't believe that these very often terrifically ideologically driven people are somehow going to make decisions that, as Lessig says, will uphold principles the left believes in because some quasi-moderate is nice to them. I think that's nonsense.

I want someone like Stephen Breyer -- who I have seen a couple of times do public debates with Scalia, and despite their stark differences, they seemed to listen to each other, even if they outright dismissed some of each other's more partisan claims -- who can effectively and forcefully explain the legal rationales for a progressive understanding of the Constitution and the legal code.