Town Halls: Don't Confuse Me with the Facts, My Mind Is Made Up

UPDATE: I have just listened to Obama's Town Hall in Montana. It is much more respectful than the one I attended. But the cameras keep focusing on a guy in a baseball cap who is shaking his head "no" every time Obama says something. So clearly this person is having a hard time aaccepting what Obama says, no matter what facts are presented.
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I attended a health care reform town hall in my district last night. There were at least 800 people there in a rural area of California. Nine out of ten of the questions asked were straight out of the Republican playbook. Almost no matter what facts the Congressman gave, he was booed. Which made it clear that people came with their minds made up and nothing rational was going to change them.

Takeaways? There is little opportunity for a dialogue in which facts are presented if the people you are talking to have already made up their minds. BUT, if you want an effective Town Hall, do three things: 1) Be sure that you get your supporters there; 2) Sprinkle them around the room so they are sitting next to the protesters; and 3) Be sure you give long, policy-rich answers to the questions!

The audience seemed to be about 1/3 for reform and 2/3 against, although the "aginers" were much noisier and nastier. What really worked to keep the anger and hostility manageable was that the people who had come in support of reform were sprinkled, to coin a phrase, "liberally" through the crowd in no particular spot, making it harder for any individual to get completely out of line. When the woman next to me growled, "I don't want to pay for anybody else's insurance benefits," I could respond, "That's my brother you're talking about!" And when the people on the other side of me snarled, "Have you read the whole bill (miss smarty pants)?" I could answer, "Yes I have. Have you?" And when the noisiest and most obnoxious guy kept shouting out stuff, the people around him told him to be quiet and be respectful. He eventually left when it was clear he couldn't disrupt things effectively.

One other thing that really seemed to calm the crowd down was that the Congressman gave long, sometimes wonky answers to the questions. And as he earnestly gave facts, stories, and repeated things, it sort of tamped the crowd's anger down somewhat.

What questions were asked? The usual ones we have been seeing on the Internet or in other town halls. Not all of them were irrelevant, but they all got respectful answers. They just didn't like the answers they got.

How can we afford this in a recession? Won't it drive up the deficit? Isn't this socialism? Will the government tell me what to do with the end of my life? I hear you are covering abortion with my tax dollars. I love my country but I fear my government. Will illegals be covered? Have you read the whole bill? Will you vote your constituency?

That latter question was asked by someone who thought the constituency was against reform. To his surprise, the Congressman answered, "Well, at last count, my office has received over 4000 emails and letters supporting reform and only about 250 against it!" It was pretty clear this part of the District was just beginning to realize they lost the election, and they didn't like the consequences!

I was surprised that there was so little anger expressed at insurance companies. No "As Good as it Gets" response from this crowd. As much as the speakers said they were being taken advantage by their insurance companies, they did not want to criticize them or change things. Take the example of the small business owner. She said she could not afford benefits for her 8 employees. She herself had a catastrophic plan with a high deductible; her husband was a recovering alcoholic who had been dry for 3 years but still couldn't get insurance at any cost. But this same woman was against insurance reform. The Congressman pushed her as far as he could, but she would not budge. She needed it but she didn't want it. Why? Because it would expand government and somehow government would end up running her life.

The anti-government theme dominated the night. Even when the Congressman explained that Medicare was a government program, there was just a low rumbling but no specific pushback. At one point after a questioner asked about VA benefits, the Congressman got quite passionate. "You like the military, right? That's a government program! Do you hate the way the military is run?" And someone in the crowd shouted out, "But the General's run the military, not bureaucrats!" (No matter that the Generals ARE bureaucrats and that it is civilians who run the military! Don't confuse me with the facts!)

After two hours of listening to people argue against their own self-interest and boo and dismiss any of the facts being presented, we left. There were still over 500 people there and at least 20 waiting to ask their questions.

Comments

[Linda Bergthold - Huffpost Blogger]

It's good to see a bit of debate going on in this blog. You all take each other on, and that's what commenting is all about.
Some of the comments, however, are straining my basic belief in the generosity of the American people I have learned about this generosity by watching my fellow citizens when an earthquake strikes, a flood or storm hits, or a neighbor that you know falls on hard times. We pull together in those situations.
So where is all the selfishness in some of these comments coming from? Do we only want to help people whom we know personally? The definition of "community" in some of these comments seems to be only the people who look like me or believe like me. The problem with this idea when it comes to insurance -- fire, auto, life, health -- is that we all must contribute so that if and when we need something, we get something back. You don't get to choose which person's auto accidents you will insure, which house that burns down gets rebuilt, which person who falls ill gets care. The whole principle of insurance is built on community. What happened to that agreement among us all?

[LITU]

And that's the crux of the matter, people arguing against their own best interests.

[bannorhill]

"Don't confuse me with facts..."

You will not get the straight facts at a town hall meeting. Obama says one thing and the bill says something else.

[traveler501]

"the" bill, huh...

[SonofLiberty1]

Ok, let's say we don't do anything?

WITHIN THE NEXT YEAR YOUR PREMIUMS WILL PROBABLY BE GOING UP AGAIN AND IF YOU NEED MEDICATION..WELL...

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ...

OH, BTW...YOU MAY NOT HAVE A JOB EITHER...

[sixyfivepercentwater]

Where were all these antigovernment people during the last eight years, when the country was being run by actual criminals? Now we get an honest well-meaning intelligent guy in office (for a politician, of course) and they go insane with anger. Over a health care bill that doesn't even exist yet, fer pete's sake!

[bannorhill]

Honest? Then why does he lie so much?

1) Promise "Too often bills are rushed through Congress and to the president before the public has the opportunity to review them."
Look at the Stimulus bill.

2) Promise "Shine Light on Earmarks and Pork Barrel Spending: Obama's Transparency and Integrity in Earmarks Act will shed light on all earmarks" and "Cut Pork Barrel Spending:"
17,000 items of Pork and this has not happened.

3) Promise "Make White House Communications Public: Obama will amend executive orders to ensure that communications about regulatory policymaking between persons outside government and all White House staff are disclosed to the public. "
Obama's secret meetings with the health care industry.

4) Promise "Line-by-Line Review of Spending: Barack Obama and Joe Biden will conduct an exhaustive line-by-line review of the federal budget, work to eliminate government programs that are not performing, and demand that new initiatives be selected on the basis of their merits "
The stimulus bill.

5) Promise " Provide a Making Work Pay Tax Cut for America's Working Families". Obama proposes to add $2,000.00 tax on every family with Cap and trade.

6) Promise "Reinstate PAYGO Rules: Obama and Biden believe that a critical step in restoring fiscal discipline is enforcing pay-as-you-go (PAYGO) budgeting rules which require new spending commitments or tax changes to be paid for by cuts to other programs or new revenue."
$1,500,000­,000,000.0­0 NEW deficit.

See Change.gov

[traveler501]

you should learn the difference between creating arguments and actually saying something with meaning. it is clear you are not even trying to give an honest, balanced assessment. it is part of what makes people like you good at getting in office, and such disasters once you are there. right now, we are trying to deal with a vast confluence of "your" disasters. have enough sense not to kill the golden goose.

[bannorhill]

"Over a health care bill that doesn't even exist yet, fer pete's sake!"

After the stimulus bill that was voted on 14 hours after the bill was written we learned that to have any input or debate it must be before the bill is written.

[Axlotl]

You know, if it were up to "conservatives"...
-We'd have no Fire departments, colleges, libraries, parks...
-The military would be huge, run the government, and openly support actual colonies in other countries
-Blacks and women would *still* not be allowed to vote. This one goes without saying.
-We would be at a state of war with France, Germany, China (!), and Japan. The "Axis of evil" countries would have been nuked already.
-Anyone with "suspected Mexican blood" could be readily deported without trial.
-Austin, Texas would be the national capital
-Corporations would be above the law, period, for some goddamn insane reason.
-We'd all basically live like "Free" 3rd world peasants, riddled with disease, ignorance, and every man fending for himself.

The fact is, there is a distinct correlation between taxes & governmental organization, and the quality of living in a country; Western Europe pays very large taxes, and lives pretty damn good. Mexico and Africa pay very little taxes, and barely have clean water. Look it up.

Conservatives & Republicans hold us back every chance they get. It's just how they operate.

[bannorhill]

PURE BS

[Axlotl]

I can show you an example of a conservative espousing every stance I've listed. Try me, bigmouth.

[SonofLiberty1]

CONSERVATIVES APPARENTLY HATE ANYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH THEM.

YOU ARE PLANNING TO RECEIVE SOCIAL SECURITY AREN'T YOU?

[XME]

Sad truth is that there are many folks, on both sides of the "aisle" who will boo ANY idea or even any words from someone from the other side of the aisle.

It's a shame that so many care more about opposing the opposition, regardless of what they have to say or propose, than they care about good ideas and what we need to do, no matter where it comes from.

[DannyDanson]

In my state Georgia, while working for one of the nations largest insurers we were consistantly told that the average adult in the state read at a 5th grade level, and to keep this is mind when explaining things we might consider to be simple ideas to them over the telephone.

This is the problem, you can recognize it from this writers experience at this townhall, I saw one protestor demand that this bill be written so as all Americans can understand what it entails, I would submit that while that sounds great, in fact it is impossible, the nature of our current health insurance regime is complicated, and I would wager that the majority of protestors with private coverage have not attempted to read their own D.O.C. (Definition of Coverage Specifications) and if they did they wouldn't understand those either.

This has nothing to do with Health Insurance Reform and everything to do with losing an election, if the losers inthe democratic process manage the to still control the agenda through these tactics, then our entire democracy is suspect, and we should second think what er consider freedom in the first place.

[myzenthing]

"I was surprised that there was so little anger expressed at insurance companies."

Why were you surprised? The insurance companies are the ones who paid the right-wing noise machine (FreedomWorks, Fox News, Beck, Limbaugh, etc.) to turn out these rent-a-mobs. So of course the talking points that they give to the mobs would definitely omit anything involving the insurance companies.

[devoid]

like Acorn and union thugs bussed in.

[myzenthing]

Please go back to your room. The adults are talking now.

[Jazzman323]

Hint to senators and congressmen on their townhall meetings:

1) Read the bills so you know what is in them like the peple attending the townhalls did.

2) Be honest.

[bannorhill]

You forgot to tell the President the same thing.

[radiclib]

.
.
Excellent essay.
The people yelling at these meetings don't want a ``debate.''
What we are seeing and hearing is the triumph of the ethos of right-wing talk radio.
The argument is always won by the person shouting the loudest.
But where does this sort of intimidation lead?
Many right-wing zealots are well-armed.
They do not respect the right of a legitimately elected government to govern.
We are in dangerous territory here and trouble lurks around the corner.
.
.

[Drenda Lawton]

It agree this is an excellent essay.....and I, too, believe we are in dangerous territory.....I think the bottom line here is just simply "Sour Grapes."

[bannorhill]

The people running the "meetings" don't want debate. They want a commercial to their supporters with opponents locked out.

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvD76-1Y2CQ&feature=player_embedded

[AlexNYC]

I believe the lyrics of the song "The Beat(en) Generation" by The The is applicable here.

When you cast your eyes upon the skyline
Of this once proud nation
Can you sense the fear and the hatred
Growing in the hearts of its population
And our youth, oh youth, are being seduced
by the greedy hands of politics and half truths

The beaten generation, the beaten generation
Reared on a diet of prejudice and mis-information
The beaten generation, the beaten generation
Open your eyes, open your imagination

We're being sedated by the gasoline fumes
and hypnotised by the satellites
Into believing what is good and what is right
You may be worshipping the temples of mammon
Or lost in the prisons of religion
But can you still walk back to happiness
When you've nowhere left to run?

Andif they send in the special police
To deliver us from liberty and keep us from peace
Then won't the words sit ill upon their tongues
when they tell us justice is being done
and that freedom lives in the barrels of a warm gun

The beaten generation, the beaten generation
Reared on a diet of prejudice and mis-information
The beaten generation, the beaten generation
Open your eyes, open your imagination

[jt2020]

This really defeats the purpose. For the Republicans or for the Democrats to stuff the town halls with their representatives takes away from the rest of us who just want to figure out what can be done with consensus. I already know the script from both sides very well, and this just sounds like a waste of time.

[stick458]

Here's a hint: If Obama, Pelosi and Reid want it, you can bank on the fact that it's bad for America. That's really all you need to know.

[radiclib]

.
.
Oh, yeah, you betcha.
Life is simple when you're a simpleton.
.
.

[crease]

So are you saying we were much better under Bush and Cheney??????????

[stick458]

Much, much better under Bush abnd Cheney, not that I'm a particular fan of either (they wasted way too much money). But they did a great job in killing Muslim terrorists and protecting you nad me.

(When it is simple, it's simple.)

[Jane Hill]

HuffPost's Pick

Angered participants have disrupted town hall meetings across the country. While my initial reaction was to be put off by the rudeness of the participants, now I am furious with them and all health care interests and politicians who encourage them. The current situation with health care in this country is not sustainable—it doesn’t take a triple-digit IQ to figure that one out.

What makes me so furious is that all of these protestors appear to be old enough for Medicare. It dawned on me that in addition to the $7,000 that I pay annually for health insurance for my family (not including my ex-employer’s contribution), I am also paying 2.9 percent of my consulting income to subsidize these protestors’ health care. They have the most secure health care in the country and they are the least susceptible to the outrageous premium increases that I have experienced, and yet they are trying to shut down any kind of meaningful discussion.

Until they are paying for their own health care or they have something worthwhile to add to the discussion, they need to sit down and shut up. And we, the voters, need to send home those politicians who encourage them.

[dcarnese]

Actually, I think "sit down and shut up because it's not your money" is a bit extreme.

These people did pay to support other people when they were working.

So it doesn't seem reasonable to say they should have no voice in the debate.

[Helmsey]

I agree we need to hear from everyone in this debate to try to get the best legislation passed, but I do get put off by all the people just spouting misinformation. Its unproductive and a waste of time. If these people can not take the time needed to come up with an arguement with substance than they do need to get out of the way of those people trying to actually come up with some solutions. I hear both sides agreeing on one thing that some sort of reform is needed in health care, so please look at the facts and stop listen to all the misinformation www.factcheck.org is a good place to start if you are not sure if something political is true or not.

[gpie]

I think they do need to "sit down and shut up" if they can't even trouble themselves to get the facts. The old people I know who are anti-healthcare reform and of course, on Medicare try to tell me that they know more than I do about it just because they've "lived through so much more," never mind that I have more education and actually read regularly (something they haven't done since Carter was in office, if ever). I don't think simply managing to make it into their 70's or more without kicking the bucket qualifies them to tell us "whippersnappers" what is best.

[Amplifryer]

3b)
THE PRESIDENT: "So the basic principle that we want to set up here is that — if you’re in private insurance, first of all, your private insurance can do whatever you want. If you’re under a government program, then it makes sense for us to make sure that we’re getting the best deal possible and not just giving drug makers or insurers more money than they should be getting. But ultimately, you’ve got to be able to get the best care based on what the doctor says."

And it sounds like that is eventually what happened. It may be that it wasn’t as efficient — it wasn’t as smooth as it should have been, but that result is actually a good one.

The questioner said “And I had to go through two different trials of other kinds of drugs before it was deemed that I was able to go back on the Lipitor through the New Hampshire Medicaid system.” The President responded, “It may be that it wasn’t as efficient – it wasn’t as smooth as it should have been, but the result is a good one.”

This man had to wait in a line. Earlier the President said about reform, “You will not be waiting in any lines,” and yet in this case, “The result is a good one.”

[DannyDanson]

If the generic drug works just as well or better than the name brand for 9 out of 10 people, do you think it wise for the federal gov't to simply buy only name brand drugs for all patients who require the treatment with tax dollars and line the pockets of the Pharma companies who spend millions of dollars marketing their product "to consumers" who have no idea that the name brand is fundamentally the same thing save a "new" or "inconsequential" molecule added specifically to make it technically different from the generic. This is a Medicare scam stealing our tax revenue and growing the deficit, are you smarter than a 5th grader?

You have no idea the size of the shaft your taking voluntarily, you are basically arguing for the Gov't to pay for 100 dollar nails with your money,

[stick458]

Keep on dismissing us. Makes our work easier.

[BryantG]

we shall see.

[stick458]

Yes you shall.

[DannyDanson]

So shall you

[SkepticalSinner]

So far, I haven't read anything to indicate that you are doing more than plugging your ears with your fingers and parotting "No it isn't" and "Socialism" to anything that is said.

When people like you can actually put together a cogent, well-thought out position, then I'll start to worry. Otherwise, I *shall* keep dismissing you as one of the "faithful" Rush O'Reilly-Glenn sheeple who will vote Red without paying the slightest attention to what is actually going on around you provided no one tries to take away your bible and your gun.

Fortunately, if we're able to improve education (with or without healthcare) your ilk should get fewer and fewer.