Some Sinful Links at Rick Warren's Updated Website

Saddleback Church removed several entries from its website, something which activist Mike Rogers noted during his elegant appearance on Hardball:

I compliment Rick Warren on seeing the error of his ways and changing his web site.

Well, this wasn't a removal of homophobia, but revisionism for PR purposes. A not-so-gay-friendly manifesto is back up at Saddlebackfamily.com, this time with a picture of the very sincere Tom Holladay, a Saddleback teaching pastor and author of The Relationship Principles of Jesus (tagline: Nothing matters more than relationships -- and no one understands them better than Jesus.).

Tom's picture and his little blurb about not being judgmental are the addition. What's missing is the original statement:

[S]omeone unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted at a member at Saddleback Church.

and its follow-up:

In equal desire to follow Jesus, we also would not accept a couple into membership at Saddleback who were not willing to repent of the sexual sin of living together before marriage

But some curiously sexy and sinful links are also present -- though now that I've written about the rather risque placeholders, Pastor Rick's crack web team (which has currently rendered his views on dinosaurs extinct -- yes Pastor Rick believes that man and velociraptors once frolicked together, because the Bible sorta says so) may have replaced them with something a little less racy....

Lisa Derrick's blog, La Figa, is part of Firedoglake.com

Follow Lisa Derrick on Twitter: www.twitter.com/lalisa93

Comments

[Naturemedicinewoman]

Ah ...Warren's team may have removed links....however I did save much to a disc and he cannot erase that. A man of God? God teaches love for all...mankind created in God's image....I never heard or read to exclude any of God's creation in my Bible.

[Michale32086]

@JohnFromCensornati

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Not for me, but you seem to have gone way out of your way to avoid my original point (which was your minimization of the number of commenters that SAY THEY BELIEVE you are an AT&T troll). I made a factual claim that IS documented in the HP comments archives.
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But here's the thing.. The ONLY reason that those number of commenters believe that is because I disagree with them..

In other words, they simply cannot handle the fact that they are wrong, so they have to invent some sort of fantasy conspiracy, rather then face the reality of the fallacy of their argument..

Michale.....

[Michale32086]

@clevelandchick

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So true. My theory is that Michale is an intern at The Heritage Foundation. Probably Bill Kristol's kid...you know how right he is about everything ;).
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Don't you know???? I am Karl Rove.. At least to one poster. Another poster claims I am a paid lobbyist for the TelCos... Another poster claims I am part of the Bush Legacy program..

Don't you see how silly it all is? You disagree with me, so you have to create some mind-boggling, conspiracy fantasy about me, rather than simply address the issues I raise.

How utterly Republican of you.... :D

Michale.....

[JohnFromCensornati]

"Another poster claims I am a paid lobbyist for the TelCos"

A number of commenters believe you are an AT&T troll, not one. Why are you being so modest all of a sudden?

[Michale32086]

I have been accused of many many things. Outrageous claims and mostly funny, but they all have one thing in common. Not one shred of proof or evidence other than disagreement with the accuser...

But, in all the accusations, I have never, EVER been accused of being "modest".. :D

That's a new one.. :D

Michale....

[Michale32086]

@ sticksnstones

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Boy, you do a nice two-step there, cowboy .... or is it a Side Step?

Just wondering ......

Happy Holidays, BTW.
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Never side stepped an issue in my life. Even when it's probably the BEST thing to do. :D

Happy holidays to you and yours as well.. :D

Michale.....

[Michale32086]

@clevelandchick

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lizziekw said nothing in her comment about Rick Warren not being an American. Why would you put words in her mouth? It's beyond bizarre.
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As AlwaysLiberal points out, my point was that people should emphasize the common ground, as opposed to the disputes..

That is what a TRUE Liberal would do.

Michale....

[Vurz]

Interesting that the Saddlebackers are so embarrassed about what they believe in. That or subterfuge are the only reasons for them to "scrub" their website.

[tbone99]

Scrubbed not changed.
In other words an attempt at subterferge

[ElBruce]

Just because they've removed the text regarding their membership policies from their website does not necessarily mean they've changed their membership policies.

Some media person should nail Warren on this: "I've noticed that you removed language from your website saying that gay couples wouldn't be allowed as members. Does that mean they're now allowed as members, or just that you're no longer advertising the policy?"

[clevelandchick]

Actually, Mike Rogers did take Warren on this on his Hardball appearance. He mentioned Warren changing his website quite a bit in the segment. Lisa linked it in her post in the first paragraph. It's a good watch, check it out.

[Davwbaird]

They have not changed in the least.

[Subversive]

Perhaps Warren's sudden, constant need to justify and rationalize that which cannot be justified and rationalized, along with the alteration of the church website is all rather minor, but it is the Right who is doing the shifting and altering, not the Left, and this is significant. It is usually the Left that always appears to be changing, slightly altering positions, offering explanations and looking quite uncomfortable while doing it, dropping this or that word or accusation when questioned. Suddenly "the shoe is on the other foot" and now it is the Right in this uncomfortable position for a change. This entire episode exposes Obama's shrewd political acumen, and his genuine character and the religious Right's utter lack of same.

[LiteSleeper]

This entire episode is about the Left shifting and changing its stance to accomodate the Right once again. Why do you think gays, women, and the Left are so p*ssed about it?

[AlwaysaLiberal]

Actually most people are not overjoyed about Warren but have moved on and realize there are more important things to obsess over.

[Lisa Derrick - Huffpost Blogger]

Warren has scrubbed his site to look more friendly--and while gays and couples living in sin are welcome to attend services they can't be members--according to what WAS written. remains to been seen on the revised site, So far there's nothing about couples living sin for what I could find--though my search lead me to find the very funny sites I linked to.

He's also got a recording up on the revised Saddleback site which shows how his evangelism and kindness is really just a way to convert people into his fundamentalist, anti-science, anti-gay mindset
http://lafiga.firedoglake.com/2008/12/24/rick-warren-the-serpent-who-believes-in-dinosaurs/

[ProudLiberalDan]

Which is why the government should NEVER spend money on faith-based initiatives that are the right's alternatives to social programs. These initiatives are often little more than taxpayer subsidized evangelism.

[Kache]

Our goal should not be to merely protect ourselves through ballot trickery or judicial grace. Our goal should be to change people's minds, for our sake, for our neighbor's sake and for our nation's sake. For 40 years the lust for power and money burning in the hearts of Republican politicians and evangelical preachers has warped the thinking of millions of our neighbors. It takes time, it takes effort, but we must undo that damage, one conversation at a time. We can do it. We are the one's we've been waiting for. And if you don't believe that, then you need help too, there is damage on both sides of the divide.

[Kache]

We have only two options - either people can change their minds or people can not change their minds.

If people can not change then we are have two alternatives. First, we can assume that "progress" is forever nothing more than the result of tricking a small percentage of voters. This has been the assumption of the Republican party for 40 years. The second alternative is to rely on the courts to protect the minority against the majority. This was the strategy of the Democratic party for 40 years, and resulted in the Democratic party becoming the minority party.

If people can change, then we need the dialog for that to happen. If we believe we have the better argument on our side, then we should not be afraid of that dialog, we will benefit from it. It takes courage of conviction. Anyone who is afraid of the dialog needs to ask themselves seriously why.

[LeftLeanWing]

Good Points

[AlwaysaLiberal]

Exactly, thank you for articulating that so clearly. I'd like to hear what Warren has to say and I'd like for him to be able to see it, regardless of the fact that I think he's grotesque. I don't see what would be gained in Obama rescinding the invitation, besides pleasing some people who can't see that a 2 min speech from this guy it is very minor in the grand scheme of things.

[Michale32086]

@swoosie1

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It is not about an eye for an eye. It is about self-preservation. Remember--those who are persecuted often over-think what needs to be done and they miss their window of opportunity. I think that it is great to talk about all this stuff and think nice thoughts about Obama and his friend, Rick, but in the end, I am going to boycott the hell out of anything associated with those two until they both confess their sins against gays. They need to come to terms with their own judgmental behaviors and remember that 2% of the population (a low figure) means about 452 million gays around the world. We are not an aberration.
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And yet, you think that THEY are an aberration, no??

So, you draw battle lines and boycott lines and discourage ANY dialogue that might result in a meeting of the minds and discovery of common ground.

How does this settle anything???

"The illogic of waste, Mr Spock. The illogic of wasted potential, resources, and time. And you are illogical for being a willing part of it."
-James T Kirk, STAR TREK, Mirror Mirror

Michale......

[AlwaysaLiberal]

Yes and I don't exactly think they are friends. I'd call them acquaintances that use each other for political means. They don't hate each other, but I wouldn't say they like each other either.

[lizziekw]

"...yes Pastor Rick believes that man and velociraptors once frolicked together, because the Bible sorta says so"

Bingo. Where's Matt Damon?

[Michale32086]

You mean Jeff Goldblum and Sam Neill??? :D

Just because some guy says something moronic (assuming that Pastor Warren did, indeed, say that) that means he is no longer an American???

Ahhhh.. I am basking in the tolerance..... NOT.....

Michale.....

[clevelandchick]

lizziekw said nothing in her comment about Rick Warren not being an American. Why would you put words in her mouth? It's beyond bizarre.

[Michale32086]

@MrRoboto

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No, I'd like my elected diplomats to find a way to engage those enemies who would seek to slit my throat in ways that they don't feel threatened.
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Diplomacy, like tolerance, is a two way street... And it's hard to be diplomatic with someone who wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire..

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But I definitely have no qualms whatsoever fighting with a neighbor who feels it's okay to vote away my civil rights because they don't fit his or her religious beliefs. And then want to tell me to just "get over it" because it's just his opinion and he's allowed to have it.
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So, you are tolerant of those who would want to slit your throat. You want to find a way to make sure that they are not threatened, even at the cost of innocent lives..

Yet, you have "no qualms" about fighting with a neighbor, a fellow American may feel threatened by your beliefs..

So, once again, this begs the question..

Why do you want to mitigate the "threat" to someone who would as soon kill you as look at you, but you care nothing for ANY possible "threat" that you may (or may not) represent to a fellow American's way of life??

This is an extremely illogical, irrational and contradictory position to have..

Michale......