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Restoring Sanity in the Blogosphere: Discovering Godwin's Law

Posted: 10/25/11 02:47 PM ET

I have never been so excited about writing a blog post as I am right now. You know that feeling you have when you find out that something incredibly bizarre and horribly annoying that you've noticed and discussed with people for years is not in your head, and actually has a name, and even its own Wiki?! A total sanity-validator. More in a moment...

Yesterday I was reading Women Making Slow, Sure Strides in Science, Math right here on the Huffington Post, and I was aghast at the comments, a large number of which demonized women for this small success, insisted that female achievement takes something away from men, and revealed many incorrect beliefs and misunderstandings of the facts. The usual gender war had broken out early on in the thread, and the attacks were customarily vicious. Even though there was nothing surprising about this, as I see it every day, I could not help swallowing my usual bitter dose of disillusionment.

I started composing a comment. This was going to be the magnum opus of all flamewar-ending comments. This was going to set everyone straight on the facts. I was going to detail my experiences on the undergraduate admissions committee at MIT, my training as an educational psychologist, and provide links to some of the articles I have written about the gender skewing of college admissions, the history of female underrepresentation in STEM careers, and Why Boys Are Failing in an Educational System Stacked Against Them (written as an advocacy piece for boys right here on HuffPost).

Typing away, I quipped to my husband, "Why do I waste my time? Someone will just call me a feminazi." And to my great surprise, his reply was, "Yup. Godwin's Law."

Godwin's Law? What was that? Well, fellow draft dodgers of the eternal flame wars, allow me to tell you. Back in 1990, at the very dawn of the Internet Age, Mike Godwin, an attorney who was one of the early cyber ethicists, observed the following: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

In other words, "Given enough time, in any online discussion--regardless of topic or scope--someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis." And once this gun is unholstered, the thread is finished and whoever shot out the Nazi comment has not only lost his or her own credibility, but has ruined the discussion thread for everyone else because the piling on has begun. Once a thread has devolved into this kind of rhetoric, there is no saving the original topic.

Godwin created his Law essentially as a counter-meme. As a frequent contributor to UseNet back in the early days, he was concerned about the casual, hyperbolic, and frequent references to Nazis being not only a distraction and diversion in comment threads, but being actually disrespectful to victims of the Holocaust by trivializing that horror. His idea was to try to cancel out the Nazi meme with one of his own. Godwin's Law became a wildly popular citation within comment threads, and, like all good neologisms, quickly morphed into a verb. One could now say, when Nazi-shaming trolls had hijacked his or her article or comment on an article, "I've been Godwinned." Or, the people insisting on their inalienable rights of free speech regarding anything related to the Third Reich could say, upon push-back to their Hitler comparisons, "Don't Godwin me." When someone invoked the Law to try to settle down the thread, all bets were off as to whether things would calm down or heat up, but they usually became volcanic. Not much has changed.

One of the funnier offshoots of Godwin's Law is Bright's Law, created by some guy named Peter Bright: "If you cannot work out whether someone is trolling or merely stupid, the answer is probably both."

As a prolific reader and writer of Internet blogs, hardly a day goes by where I do not see someone stem-winding someone else by calling them a Nazi. These people have no inkling of the depth of their own embarrassment and shame. That seems to be evidence that Godwin's Law has not "worked" as a counter-meme, but how could it? There is just way too much satisfaction people get from insinuating genocidal mania in other people to bolster their own views. Whether the blog topic is related to gender, politics, or recipes, sooner or later, someone will torpedo the thread with their anger management problems.

When it comes to politics, I notice several prevalent newer memes have popped up amidst the Balkanization of punditry and sound bite wisdom. There is the whole Osama bin Laden/Muslim/terrorist comment bomb that can be dropped without provocation. Then there is the whole tea bagger/neocom meme so popular in today's political discourse. But the point is, Godwin's Law explains all of it!

From now on, I plan to maintain greater composure whenever someone trollishly destroys a thread I'm reading or participating in, or attempts to sabotage an article I have written because -- and here's the key take-away -- Godwin's Law predicts this extremely aggravating phenomenon, allowing me to remain calmer because I anticipate and understand it.

And this is one of those gifts that keeps on giving, so I'm giving it to all of you. March forth into the blogosphere armed with this knowledge, and you, too, can keep your head from exploding every time you think that people cannot get any stupider. They can, they will, and it's not you, it's them.

Maybe that could be Day's Law.

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06:42 PM on 10/28/2011
Does Mike Goodwin own FOX News per chance? No? Never mind.

This reminds me about the basic lack of boundaries the internet affords people. Because you can, doesn't mean you should. It's also interesting to compare this with the lack of boundaries that early newspaper editors had during the late 1700's & early 1800's--those guys were brutal. But you knew who they were ...and where they lived.
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Lori Day
Educational psychologist and consultant
07:10 PM on 10/28/2011
That's a really interesting point about early newspaper editors. I'm sure it was the wild west in all respects back then, but I wonder if they used the expletives we see everywhere today? The degradation of norms is now epic.
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Deron Triff
05:44 PM on 10/28/2011
Ms. Day,

Might I add "Gadaffi's Law" to this list? That being, all of those who commented prior to the Godwinian attack are destined to be victims caught in the cross-fire.
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Lori Day
Educational psychologist and consultant
07:08 PM on 10/28/2011
I think that laws need to be named after the people who conceptualize them, so I'd call this one "Triff's Law," and it deserves a place in the canon of internet rules for sure. Is that how you spell Qaddafi??
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Parade Keegan
I Can Hear You
06:27 PM on 10/27/2011
Another "rule" when thinking about Godwins rule is Occams Razor don't you think?
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Lori Day
Educational psychologist and consultant
04:50 PM on 10/28/2011
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

~H. L. Mencken
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Parade Keegan
I Can Hear You
02:28 AM on 10/31/2011
That's a good one too but subjective.
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Parade Keegan
I Can Hear You
06:22 PM on 10/27/2011
May be now is the perfect time to enlighten people to the annihilation of virtually all Armenians from Turkey between 1918 and 1923 so learn these names; Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), Ittihad ve Terakki Jemiyeti, emerged at the head of the government led by a triumvirate: Enver, Minister of War; Talaat, Minister of the Interior (Grand Vizier in 1917); and Jemal, Minister of the Marine. Maybe we should invoke these names when trying to highlight the horrible present behaviors of some. This would call attention to the devastating murders of hundreds of thousands of people that history largely ignores, Armenians and I'm sure there's many who would welcome the spotlight. Let's make the Jewish genocide "that of which we will not speak" but be careful as that would fit into "the deniers" agendas! I think it's appropriate to point out similarities of historical mass murders with present day actions of some because the Envets, Hitlers and Amins weren't blatant about their "plans" in the beginning and we wouldn't want see "them coming" again, would we (sarcasm)? Let's not "call out" the insidious men/women that walk among us. I personally think those who find offense with hearing the Hitler analogy used ridiculous and they use their "offense" to avoid the real discussion and if the analogy is well placed, the whining never seems to get past the "offense".
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Json
Cynical dreamer, sarcastic idealist...
04:27 PM on 10/27/2011
I suspect that Godwin would be disappointed that his rule is used almost exclusively as a prediction. Has anyone ever seen someone invoke Godwin's law and have the other person concede the point?

(Now I'd like to see an article on rule 34. ;-P )
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Nigel Goodnow
10:53 AM on 10/27/2011
My theory about the applicability of Godwin's Law is similar to others' comments about the overall stupidity present in the blogosphere. Hitler is very useful for two reasons: he is a historical figure that people are familiar with, and he is generically evil enough to serve any purpose. In any particular thread, another historical figure would be more apt; for instance, if you are discussing evil done in the name of anti-religion, Enver Hoxha is probably a more apt figure than Hitler or even Stalin. Hoxha is not exactly a household name, however, so people will most commonly just ignore the reference, regardles of how apt, or will accuse you of being deliberately obtuse. Hitler and Stalin's relation with religion is considerably more complex than just "he was an atheist/no he was a Christian", but complexity is the foe of 250-word posts, so this is ignored in favor of name-calling.
The reason Godwin is right is because there is so little common historical or cultural education shared by those commenting on blogs. It's not the internet's fault, but the fault of people who aren't aware of their own ignorance. Blog comments don't flame people, people flame people.
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lifetimestudent
Cosmic Possum
08:56 PM on 10/26/2011
I try, not always successfully, to talk myself out of responding to trolls by remembering this old saying: Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
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Lori Day
Educational psychologist and consultant
10:19 AM on 10/27/2011
There's another saying like that. Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig enjoys it."
10:44 AM on 10/27/2011
Also known as Rule 14 Lori.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
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OneFish
Various and assorted mutualistic microbial buddies
08:32 PM on 10/26/2011
Simply because there is a named assertion does ot make it correct. The implication is that any reference is not apt and that is simply not the case
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06:03 PM on 10/26/2011
You forgot the most useful application of Godwins' law, it's corollary:

Once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.

Without consensus on that corollary as being relevant, Godwin's law isn't self-enforcing. It's always puzzled me that so many people get so excited about the idea but don't read much more beyond it.

Back in the day, a poster I knew would declare threads he felt to have augered in hopelessly over by posting screen after screen of ASCII art - swastikas, lightning bolts, deaths-heads, etc.
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Lori Day
Educational psychologist and consultant
03:32 PM on 10/27/2011
No, I did mention that. You must not have seen it in the post. And I do agree with it!
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04:36 PM on 10/27/2011
Sorry, I did miss it - and I did look for it, since it is the really valuable bit. Glad it was there, but at least in the discussion groups I was part of, the dynamic was so different from your description that I couldn't recognize it.

I never saw anyone write "don't Godwin me;" people were pretty easily aware of who had advanced which argument, and once someone did accuse someone else of being a brown shirt, that person really was ostracized by all - both those who agreed with other things they were arguing, and those on the opposite side of the discussion.

Which - unless it was the primary person engaged in the argument who'd been the knucklehead - typically left the rest of the argument to go on.
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threnodymarch
Art is long, life is short.
11:56 AM on 10/26/2011
Thank you for pointing this out; over the years I've become so frustrated and aggravated seeing the references thrown around so carelessly and thoughtlessly. It's easier to throw out hyperbolic comparisons instead of taking a step back and thinking about a situation from all sides. That's too much work. Throwing "Hitler" into the mix gets you an instant, emotional reaction without any of the necessary brain power. Great article!
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Lori Day
Educational psychologist and consultant
01:53 PM on 10/26/2011
Thank you. I think it's interesting that Godwin's Law is remembered by the early internet adopters, but the rest of us never knew what it was. I guess everything old is new again. Sad that from the very moment people started venturing online, this behavior started, and was such a problem that someone named it. Now, 20 years later, nothing has changed.
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Json
Cynical dreamer, sarcastic idealist...
10:18 AM on 10/26/2011
How can someone be a blogger on HuffPo and "prolific reader and writer of Internet blogs" and never heard of Godwin's law??
Mind-boggling. Seriously.

And you can't name name your own law "Day's Law". After all...

Stigler's law – No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer, named by statistician Stephen Stigler who attributes it to sociologist Robert K. Merton, making the law self-referential.
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Lori Day
Educational psychologist and consultant
10:33 AM on 10/26/2011
You chose a good byline. Cheers!
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Json
Cynical dreamer, sarcastic idealist...
04:08 PM on 10/26/2011
Thanks ;)
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Robert Blackburn
09:15 AM on 10/26/2011
There is a reason that the world is becoming more stupid, even in the face of tremendous advances in technology and communication. These advances don't cause stupidity, but they are significant enablers. Name calling and labeling are only a couple of the tactics used to end intelligent discussion on topics people find threatening or about which they feel ignorant and inadequate.

Understanding the tendency of humans to make themselves more stupid is the first step in turning this situation around. The second step is understanding why they do it; and the third is to understand what's necessary to reverse this trend. These are all explained on my website.
See: http://revolutionofreason.com and http://www.youtube.com/RobertLBlackburn
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OtayPanky
You're welcome
01:11 AM on 10/26/2011
OtayPanky's Axiom: As time goes on, the probability of restoring sanity to the intertubes approaches zero.
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SmileAndActNice
Utilitarianism, the -ism that works.
09:49 PM on 10/25/2011
Poe's Law is also a good one to remember:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law
-----

Poe's Law was originally formulated by Nathan Poe in August 2005.[2] The law emerged at the Creation & Evolution forum on the website Christianforums.com.[3] Like most such places, it had seen a large number of creationist parody postings and these parody posts were usually followed by at least one user starting a flame war (a series of angry and offensive personal attacks) thinking it was a real post. Nathan Poe summarized this pattern in his original formulation of the law:

“ Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won't mistake it for the genuine article. ”

The law caught on and has since slowly leaked out as an internet meme. Over time it has been extended to include not just creationist parody but any parody of extreme ideology, whether religious, secular, or totally bonkers.

--

-----
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Lori Day
Educational psychologist and consultant
09:51 AM on 10/26/2011
This one's great too. My 19-year-old daughter pointed it out to me yesterday when my post came out. It's totally true!
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gloriaswanson43
Ask and you will get more info.
10:49 AM on 10/26/2011
Is this what a "Poe" is?
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Lori Day
Educational psychologist and consultant
01:54 PM on 10/26/2011
Yep!
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AdorableHero
Conquer your dark side or become it.
05:44 PM on 10/30/2011
Unless you're playing one of the "Legend of Zelda" games or are on a forum dedicated to the discussion thereof. There, a "Poe" is a kind of evil spirit that you can collect in a bottle (or rip the "soul" out of, depending on the game).

But Poe's law - it has expanded. It's usually used in the context of religious fundamentalism/extremism and its parodies, but sometimes branches to other things. If I'm not mistaken, Stephen Colbert has been a victim of it in doing parody of political extremeism - which some people have thought was real!
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divorcedpauline
05:46 PM on 10/25/2011
Brilliant! I haven't been called a Nazi, but I have been called a vaginista, which I think is in the same ballpark.
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Lori Day
Educational psychologist and consultant
06:05 PM on 10/25/2011
As neologisms go, that is pretty outstanding. As examples of how we are doing as a civilization, not so much!