I couldn't wait to meet the woman behind the initials. Three books at the top of the bestseller list, all at the same time? Who is this woman?
Three-and-a-half years ago, Erika Leonard was virtually anonymous -- a wife, mother and former TV executive whose fan-fiction occasionally appeared on a website under the pseudonym Snowqueens Icedragon. Then the unassuming Brit hit what she called a "mid-life crisis, writ large" -- and she began to write. And write. And write.
What happened next was startling: Erika would become E.L. James, author of the blockbusting Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy, which has done for sex, romance and bondage what Julia Child did for coq au vin, cream sauce and crepes.
The numbers continue to astonish: 40 million copies have been sold worldwide; 15,000 brick-and-mortar stores and countless online outlets stock the books; publication rights have been sold to 37 countries; and Universal Studios has plunked down $5 million for the big-screen rights. As for the author -- who, this year, Time magazine named one of the "100 Most Influential People in the World" -- she's no longer anonymous.
Back in May, I wrote about the Fifty Shades phenomenon, and my fascination with why this particular erotic tale (about a naïve college student and her handsome -- and very kinky -- billionaire boyfriend) would ignite such an explosive response among millions of women around the globe -- and they all had questions: Were the books really about sex? Or womanhood? Or power? I wondered, too -- which is why I tracked down the very much in-demand author herself for a little chat. Here's our conversation.
Marlo Thomas: Let's start with a question about color. You called the book Fifty Shades of Grey, and one of the two main characters is named Christian Grey. Why grey?
E.L. James: What I wanted to demonstrate is that I do not look at the world in terms of black and white -- and I find people who do rather scary. I think it's all shades of grey. As you read through the novel, you think, "Was she good? Was she bad? What was he saying? What went on?" And I think all of the questions that the story raises are not questions for me to answer. They are for the readers to decide for themselves -- how they feel about everything. Fifty shades of grey.
Marlo: I devoured the books -- they were such fun to read -- but they were also off-the-wall, sexually speaking. So I couldn't help but wonder: What inspired you to delve into this particular kind of writing?
E.L.: Well to be honest, it was mostly curiosity. I had just read some stuff about BDSM [bondage-domination-sadism-masochism] and found it really, really hot -- an arousing kind of hot. And I got to thinking, "What if you met somebody who was in this kind of relationship, in this lifestyle, and who knew nothing about it and probably didn't want to do it? What would happen next?" And I just took it from there, really. And as I got to know these characters, they took me on this extraordinary journey.
Marlo: When you were growing up, did you read erotic books or see erotic films?
E.L.: I read a lot of erotic fiction in my early 30s, things by Brenda Joyce, Nora Roberts, Judith McNaught. I'm a sucker for a love story.
Marlo: Me, too. That's the secret to the success of your "Fifty Shades" books, I think.
E.L.: Yes, I think this is why women have responded to them. It's the love story more than anything else.
Marlo: A lot of women, especially feminists, have expressed concern about the potent male dominance in the books. Others have called it politically incorrect. How do you respond to that?
E.L.: You know what? It makes me kind of laugh, all this navel-gazing about this book. I wrote it for fun! It's entertaining, and if they read all the books, they'd know who's actually the stronger of these two characters.
Marlo: Ana, of course.
E.L.: Yes, Ana, by far. I get so many people telling me, "My God, this book has empowered me" and "I can really explore my sexuality now." I think what people do in the bedroom is up to them, and it's not for us to judge. So I find all of this breast-beating about it...well, I mean, I just roll my eyes at it, frankly.
Marlo: It's a fantasy.
E.L.: Exactly. And it's fun! And everything Ana does is safe, sane and consensual. Christian takes it too far. She leaves. I think the domination aspect is completely overstated, and that many people are missing the point.
Marlo: When I wrote about the book earlier this year, I addressed that exact point. I said that, in the end, Ana tames Christian.
E.L.: Actually, it's not about taming him. It's about showing him something else -- a side of him that he doesn't know he has. I mean, the poor boy, he's an adolescent, and he has his adolescence through these books. He is incredibly f***ed up.
Marlo: Agreed. And anyway, feminists have fantasies, too. I am a feminist, and I had a very good weekend after I read your book, thank you.
E.L.: I'm very glad to hear it.
Marlo: Ann Rice referred to her sexier novels as "one-handed reads"; and "Saturday Night Live" spoofed "Fifty Shades" as the perfect masturbation material --
E.L.: That was hilarious! I just laughed my socks off when I saw it. I thought, "Here are people who aren't pontificating about it; they're actually celebrating it in a way." I mean, who talks about female masturbation anyway? And it was on prime time television! Who would believe that? It was fantastic.
Marlo: A lot of women wrote to comments to me, saying that "Fifty Shades" really helped bring some passion back into their marriages, and into their relationships. They said it freed them.
E.L.: Yes, and isn't it nice to be dominated now and again, or dominating somebody else, or doing a little role-playing -- if it's all in fun?
Interview Continues Below
D. H. Lawrence's scandalous tale of the aristocratic Lady Constance Chatterly finding sexual fulfillment with the gamekeeper on her husband's estate was first published privately in Italy in 1928. When an abridged version was published in Britain, in 1932, it scandalized the nation. The explicit language and detailed depictions of sex between a working-class man and an upper-class woman made the book a notorious must-read and a subject of debate for years to come.
This Czech film made in 1933 was highly controversial in its day primarily due to a very revealing, nude swimming scene featuring the film's star, Hedy Lamarr. It was also the first non-pornographic film to actually depict sexual intercourse and female orgasm, though both were portrayed only by showing the actors' faces. When the distributor lobbied for a wide release in America in 1936, the censorship board rejected the film, calling it "highly--even dangerously--indecent."
Henry Miller's famous novel was first published in Paris in 1934, and became a a notorious sensation due to its candid sexuality and language. The book was banned in the U.S. until 1961, and even then, its publication resulted in oscenity trials that challenged American laws regarding pornography and free speech. In 1964, the U.S. Supreme court ruled that the book was "non-obscene," and today it is considered a masterpiece of 20th-century literature.
In Pauline Reage's erotic novel about dominance and submission, a beautiful Parisian fashion photographer, who is referred to only as "O," becomes involved with a man named Rene, and their relationship becomes an exploration of every imaginable scenario involving debasement, submission, and severe sexual and psychological tests. Throughout it all, O grants permission for everything that occurs. The book won a French literary prize in 1955, but that did not prevent French authorities from filing obscenity charges against the publisher -- charges which were rejected by the courts. Forty years after the publication, it was revealed that Pauline Reage was a pen name for the real author, Anne Desclos.
So successful was Nabokov's highly controversial novel about a middle-aged professor's obsession with a twelve-year-old girl, that the girl's nickname, Lolita, has entered the vernacular as a way to describe a sexually precocious girl. Originally rejected by numerous international publishing houses, the book was first released in France and the first printing sold out. A positive review in the London Sunday Times resulted in a backlash of hostile reviews, with one British reviewer calling it "the filthiest book I have ever read." Today, it is considered a modern classic.
With its opening sequence showing actress Carroll Baker lying in a nursery crib, sucking her thumb, Elia Kazan's 1956 film quickly garnered plenty of attention. Based on a play by Tennessee Williams, the story revolved around a simple, southern, virginal bride called "Baby Doll" and the men who are obsessed with her, including her much older husband and a wandering drifter. The film's controversial subject matter provoked an effort by the National Legion of Decency to ban the film, but in the end, the film was nominated for multiple awards including four Academy Awards.
Gore Vidal's hilarious, satirical novel, "Myra Breckinridge," was a literary sensation in its day and it went on to become a worldwide bestseller. Though many were scandalized by its themes of transexuality, female dominance, deviant sex and the deconstruction of American machismo, the camp sensibility and biting humor of the novel made it irresistable to millions. In 1970, it was made into one of the campiest comedy films of all time starring Raquel Welch, John Huston and Mae West (with cameos by Farrah Fawcett and Tom Selleck!)
John Schlesinger's gritty and trippy 1969 film broke controversial new ground with its frank, non-judgmental depiction of homosexuality as well as its unflinching look into the world of male prostitution. The film also made history when it became the first and only X-rated film to win Best Picture at the Oscars.
Bernardo Bertolucci's raw and erotic film starred Hollywood icon Marlon Brando in one of his most daring roles. Like "Midnight Cowboy," the film was slapped with an X rating due to its graphic sexual content, which left both audiences and critics asking themselves, "Is it art, or is it pornography?" But despite all the controversy, the film was generally praised by critics and, in the end, both Brando and Bertolucci were nominated for Oscars.
Jong's novel was a huge sensation in the early seventies and was famously controversial for its candid, liberating and graphic exploration of female sexuality. The story is narrated by its central character, Isadora Wing, who is feeling unfulfilled in her second marriage. On a trip to Vienna with her psychiatrist husband, she decides to risk everything to explore and indulge her sexual fantasies with another man. Though the book was the subject of countless conversations and debates, it may still be best known for originating the term "zipless f***," which meant a sexual encounter for it's own sake, without any form of commitment or emotional involvement.
Like its subject, the Roman Emperor Caligula, this 1979 film was a complete mess. Though the script was written by Gore Vidal and the cast included big-name stars such as Malcom McDowell, Helen Mirren, Peter O'Toole and John Gielgud, it was the post-production addition of pornographic footage by co-producer (and Penthouse Founder) Bob Guccione that made this film notorious. The inclusion of the footage not only outraged audiences and critics, but some cast members as well. Today, the infamous cult film is still banned in several countries.
Adrian Lyne's 1986 erotic drama was neither a commercial nor a critical success in its original U.S. release, but it went on to become a huge international hit with a very long life on video. The film depicts an erotic and kinky relationship between its lead characters, played my Kim Basinger and Mickey Rourke, in which his character continuously pushes her boundaries until she reaches the point of an emotional breakdown. Sizzling sex scenes involving food, ice cubes and more have contributed to the film's lasting appeal.
The Showtime series "Queer as Folk," which premiered in 2000, was actually based on a successful British series of the same name. The show broke ground on American TV as the first hour-long drama to realistically portray a the complex lives of gay male and female characters. Sometimes racy, sometimes sensitive and often funny, the show ran for five seasons.
"The L Word," which first aired in 2004, was an intimate drama that centered on a small group of lesbian friends living in Los Angeles. Intriguing storylines and a realistic portrayal of the womens' lives made the show a big hit with viewers.
Showtime scored big in 2007 when it premiered a new dramedy starring David Duchovny as a struggling writer with an uncontrollable libido and a lust for all things hedonistic. The central character, novelist Hank Moody, is plagued by demons that complicate not only his ability to write, but the relationships he tries to maintain with his daughter and his ex-girlfriend. With its candid, graphic and sometimes hilarious depictions of Hank's countless sexual encounters, the series has continuously pushed boundaries from its very first episode up until today.
Marlo: Did you try ever S&M?
E.L.: I had a good time researching these books. That's all I'm going to tell you.
Marlo: Okay, I'll buy that. A lot of women also wonder if you based Christian Grey on someone you once dated.
E.L.: I am going to plead the Fifth on that, too.
E.L.: Yeah -- you can take from that what you will.
Marlo: Got it. Let's talk about Christian. You know, he's become part of the lexicon. Women will say to each other, "This man was very Christian Grey."
E.L.: For me, he is the ultimate fantasy guy. And that's the point: As long as you accept that fantasy guy -- fantasy sex, fantasy lifestyle, a broken man who needs fixing through love -- what woman could resist that?
Marlo: Granted, that's certainly a draw for many women. But in your wildest imagination, did you ever expect this kind of massive response?
E.L.: No. My only ambition for these books was to have them in bookstores. And I cannot believe how they have taken off -- it's extraordinary.
Marlo: So what does that tell you?
E.L.: There are so many wonderful things that I can take from this. Mostly that it brings women together. I can't tell you the number of emails I've received from women who said, "We formed a book club," or "I've told all my friends about the books" -- or even, "My family is reading this!" Then I get women who say, "I haven't read a book for 10 or 20 years and I read all of your books in just three days." To me, that's absolutely extraordinary.
Marlo: Did you write the three books all at once?
E.L.: Basically, the first two were one long book, and then I took a three- or four-month break, because I had gotten them to a place where I was happy. But to write a good story, there has got to be some kind of conflict, so I had to figure out what that conflict was -- and that's what inspired me to write the third book. They were all written over a period of about two years total.
Marlo: When did you first know that they had really taken off? What was your first sign?
E.L.: I think it was around Christmas, just before the New Year. I got the first email asking me if the film rights were available.
Marlo: That's always a clue. How long had it been out then?
E.L.: It had been out [since May], but it was only in ebook and print-on-demand format with my old publisher. Then in December, I noticed it was going viral across the east coast of America. So we went to New York, met with some of the big six [publishing houses] who wanted to publish a paperback version to put into the shops, and we managed to get that deal sorted. The editor at Random House was just adorable and amazing. She said to me, "I don't want this book on the back shelf of the bookstore in the erotic section. This needs to be on the front table at Barnes and Noble, because it is a cultural phenomenon." She said that back in January of this year.
Marlo: And she was right. I'm wondering, has all of this success -- and all of this talk about sex -- impacted your relationship with your husband? Did you show him pieces of your books while you were writing them?
E.L.: Yes. He used to check my grammar on each chapter.
Marlo: I wasn't exactly thinking about grammar -- I was talking more about the sex scenes. Was he shocked that you were writing about this?
E.L.: No, no, not at all. He would say things like, "Oh, this is hot." Or, "This will get 'em going." Or, "I can't wait to see what happens next."
Marlo: "This will get 'em going" -- that's so funny. So I have to know: if you can write this kind of book, is there anything on earth that makes you blush?
E.L.: On, I blush all the time. Even reading my own books, I blush. I think, "I wrote this? My God!"
Marlo: What about your friends? That fascinates me because every now and then I'll do something in my career, and my friends look at me like, "Wow, I didn't know you had that in you."
E.L.: My friends were amazed, just stunned. What's funny is that they nagged me and nagged me when I had shut myself off for two years to write the books. They'd say, "Come out with us, come out!" and I would say, "No, I just want to write because I am so into this story!"
Marlo: And when they finally found out what was lurking in your heart and head? They didn't expect that, did they?
E.L.: No, they didn't. A friend Facebooked me the other day and said, "You dark, dark horse!"
Marlo: That's so interesting to me -- that, as an author, you have this dark side that you wanted to explore. That's just like Ana in the books, who explores her own dark side.
E.L.: Yes, and I think that's one of the interesting things about the books -- just watching Ana grow and finding out that she does indeed have this other side.
Marlo: When I wrote my blog, many women commented that the books awakened their fantasies, and they were surprised by their excitement. One woman wrote that it pulled out this other part of herself that she hadn't been exploring anymore.
E.L.: I get that a lot. They write, "I've discovered this part of myself that I didn't know existed." They're quite freaked out by it, but in a good way. They're thinking, "Wow, this is amazing. Why has it taken me so long to discover this?"
Marlo: Discover this or rebirth it.
Marlo: Did you take a similar journey when you were writing this? Did you start finding things in yourself that surprised you?
E.L.: To be honest, I haven't shone a torch inside myself to really get to know my reaction to all of this. It's something that I would actually quite shy away from, just in case thinking about it frightened away whatever made me want to write it. Do you know what I mean?
Marlo: Yes, I do.
E.L.: And I don't really want to do that. If you overanalyze things, you risk killing them.
Marlo: Understood. But surely you opened doors in yourself. You must have.
E.L.: I don't know. I mean, there is one thing. I have a very, very active imagination, and I've been a daydreamer all my life. And through these books, I've finally found a way to channel all this daydreaming, which has been a revelation for me.
Marlo: You're daydreaming had erotica in it?
E.L.: Oh, God, yes.
Marlo: So getting back to your readers, maybe the reason the books have become so successful is because women want to open that door in themselves, too, and they need a guide.
E.L.: I think that's true for some, but not for all of them. Some just like the love story, or the story itself. There are a lot of people who say, "Yes, I could take Christian, but without his red room of pain," because they are not interested in that side.
Marlo: It's not hard to understand the attraction to Christian. He's so divine. I mean, his crisp white shirt, and his no-belly, and his slim hips -- and that hair! My friends and I are always reporting to each other that we think we've spotted him on the street.
E.L.: Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd like to see him in my room right now!
Marlo: You're hilarious. But let's face it, the guy's got everything -- airplanes and helicopters, a great body, great hair -- and he's young and rich. Did you go through several versions of him? I mean, how did you find this character?
E.L.: He sort of grew on me, really. I just knew he was lovely.
Marlo: He's absolutely delicious. I just wondered if you modified him along the way.
E.L.: No, he came to me all at once.
Marlo: Do you think you'll do another book on him?
E.L.: I don't know. There does seem to be an appetite.
Marlo: I read a description of the book that said, "This is a tale that is going to obsess you and possess you and stay with you" -- which is a pretty amazing quote. How did you feel when you read that? Were you flabbergasted?
E.L.: No, I wasn't -- because my husband wrote it.
Marlo: [laughing] Really? I thought it was a review.
E.L.: No, my husband wrote that line. He is a writer himself -- he writes television drama -- but because of all this whole thing that's happened to me, he's actually gone out and published his own novel, as well. His book came out this week. It's funny, I've been nagging him for 20 years to write a novel and it took my publishing Fifty Shades for him to actually do it!
Marlo: The books don't come with a warning that says, "Don't try this at home." Do you have any cautionary words for women and men who want to bring the world of "Fifty Shades" into their bedrooms?
E.L.: I think the watch-words are "safe, sane and consensual." You need to know the person you're doing this sort of thing with; you need to do it properly; you need to take things slowly and carefully -- even read about it on the Internet. But, no, I'm not saying this is a manual in any way -- it's just a love story. It's my fantasy.
Marlo: Did you read that in New York they're selling a lot more soft rope in hardware stores?
E.L.: [Laughs] That's weird, because rope isn't even used in the books.
Marlo: Maybe your readers are giving you a hint about what they want next. Earlier this month, the Huffington Post did an article called " How a 'Fifty Shades'-Style Sexual Contract Can Lead to Better Sex," which was a nod to the way Christian presents a contract to Ana in your books. The writer pointed out that making a contract with your lover is really about communication -- that when you have any kind of contract with your lover or your mate, you're basically saying that you'll do certain things for each other, and that you'll promise to communicate with each other. Is that what you were going for with Christian and Ana?
E.L.: Any relationship that you have is about negotiation -- anything -- whether there is a written contract or not. I'm not a relationship expert at all, and I wouldn't begin to set myself up as one, but, yes, I think communication is the key -- and that's another one of the positive things that's come out of these books: that people are talking about sex. They're talking about sex with their husbands. They're talking about sex with their girlfriends. They're talking about sex with their partners. And because of all of this communication, women are having much more intimate relationships, which is fantastic.
Marlo: Let's talk about Ana a bit. She's so innocent, which reminds us all of that time in our own lives when we were naive and exploring new things. But Ana soon discovers she's able to negotiate with Christian. That's strength. As a woman and a feminist, I love that. Here Ana was being victimized, but she wasn't a victim. She found a way to define her boundaries and --
E.L.: I wouldn't say that Ana's being victimized at all.
Marlo: You wouldn't?
E.L.: No. I think she was being sort of hurried into a relationship she wasn't sure about. But victimized? No, I don't think so.
Marlo: Still, you're sending a message to young women who are impressionable that they have the ability to empower themselves, right?
E.L.: I think that's right, yes. Ana was open. She thought, "Do I want to do this?" She examined her own feelings about it, and she acted on them. She was cautious, she was in love. She was very attracted to this guy -- she was all of these things, and she was open to ideas. But I think she stayed true to herself.
Marlo: And what about the fact that she's a young, innocent virgin -- was that important to you?
E.L.: Oh, yes. I think virgins are far more interesting to write about, you know? If we've been around the block a few times, we know what to expect. Not so with virgins.
Marlo: Was that important to Christian?
E.L.: I think so, yes. But he doesn't realize that. He's so dense about his own feelings. But it becomes very important to him.
Marlo: What's interesting is that the woman who first seduced Christian was this older, experienced woman. And Ana, who he actually falls in love with, is the opposite.
E.L.: Absolutely, completely the opposite.
Marlo: So let's talk about that -- what were you showing us with this older woman?
E.L.: I'm not showing you anything. I'm telling a story. That's it -- it's just a story.
Marlo: True, but that doesn't stop us from thinking, "What does she mean?" If we had Shakespeare here, we'd ask him these same questions. Speaking of which, one of the questions asked most by the millions of women who read our blog was: Has the queen invited you to the palace yet?
E.L.: [Laughs hysterically]
Marlo: Well, my God, she should! You're the most popular woman in England!
E.L.: No, I have not been invited by the queen to the palace. I've been invited on TV shows and things, but it's not something I'm interested in. Quite honestly, I decided to do this interview basically to say thank you. People have bought the books and wanted to know a little more about me. But that's it. I'm not really interested in celebrity or fame or all that.
Marlo: Well, we're pretty honored to have gotten the chance to speak with you. I know you think you've just written a story, but you should also know that something very good has happened from all this -- in the culture, in the human psyche -- and that's what's made this so important.
Last question: When I first started reading the book and all the sex parts, I thought, "Well, this has to have been written by a guy." But then as I got into the story, I thought, "No, this is definitely written by a woman -- it could only be written by a woman." Why do you use the genderless pen name E.L? Did you want to keep us guessing like that?
E.L.: Oh, no, no -- it's because I thought I would continue working at my other job. I worked in television, and I didn't know the book was going to be so successful. So I wanted to keep the two sides of my job very separate. I thought I'd write some naughty stuff in the evening, and go to work during the day. It never occurred to me that people would think I was a bloke.
Marlo: Well, now that these two sides of your career have come together, will you continue to write as E.L. or will you return to your real name, Erika?
E.L.: I will write as E.L. James. I've kind of gotten used to her.
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