When it comes to evaluating someone's service or heroism there is only one person I listen to and that is my father. He has walked around with so many pins in his body since Vietnam that he has to be ex-rayed at the airport every time because the metal detectors go off. Now, my father after spending over one year in a VA Hospital on his return spent over a year on the streets walking with crutches on the side of the road trying to get to Arizona to see his mom and no one helped him. He was starving and about dead when a trucker picked him up to finally get him there. Now there is the back ground and I will tell you with out hesitation my dad says that McCain is a looser. Heroism, says my dad, is not being shot down and being held captive for 5 years. It takes more than that to be a hero, dad says being a hero is giving your heart and soul for this country or a cause you believe in, one thing he seriously doubts McCain has ever done. John McCain has always only been concerned with himself and his power.
Reading The Pictures: McCain's War Cred Goes Belly Up
At least in this case, context means everything.
Up until Sunday, this well-known October 1967 image of McCain being pulled from a lake near Hanoi was used without qualification by the Straight Talk Express PR division to convey heroism and elicit admiration and empathy.
By raising McCain's actual command experience as a campaign issue, however, Wesley Clark's weekend comments reframe the photo for posterity, highlighting the exact moment and event that deprived McCain of the chance to go on and prove himself, in combat (like Pop and GrandPop did), as part of the brass. Echoing Clark's point that McCain's heroism was based on his service as a prisoner, the photo -- up to now, liberally touted by Mac's campaign -- suddenly loses the pomp and ambiguity.
Simply, what the picture reflects is how McCain's heroism and military record is largely based on his going belly up.
Gen. Wes Clark on Face the Nation June 29, 2008 (YouTube)
"Attacking" McCain's Military Record: What Wesley Clark really said; how the press missed it (CJR)
For more of the visual, visit BAGnewsNotes.com.
(image: unattributed. Truc Bac Lake, near Hanoi, North Vietnam. October 26, 1967. Library of Congress, via Associated Press.)
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Some one forgot to close the door and look what we have. Knuckle dragging repuglican conservative attack dogs swarming the place. Have you no shame? Cancel that, we already know the answer!!!
Shame?
We're not the ones who spat on soldiers returning from Viet Nam.
Another urban legend. No one has ever documented any Viet Nam vet being spit on.
Aren't you? Who spit on Max Clellen, a real military patriot? The ill-treatment of those who have served honorably has come from all sectors and political affiliations, so quit your obvious lying and try to get honest.
From Joe Conason 7/2/08 opinion piece remembering Adm. John Stockdale, another real American military patriot. The repugs hated that he would run on the ticket of Ross Perot, considered a spoiler for the repugs in 1992.
"The Stockdale episode also highlights the bias and hypocrisy behind the fury over Gen. Clark"s comments. In the days following the October 1992 debate, Stockdale was roasted from all sides, with much of the most withering commentary emanating from the self-styled superpatriots of the far right, who were angry about the Perot candidacy and worried that Bill Clinton would win the election, as he did".
urban myth, just like mccains support for the Troops.
Are you the very last ignoramus to know that those stories, are hoaxes perpetrated by people like you, like the razor blade in the apple Halloween stories? And if they were true, they are not actions of a group, unless you can tell us how a group spits on someone. The left champions veterans' rights by givng them better medical care, the right uses shills to spout propaganda.
Some people from the far left did do some things that weren't very honorable, but what about the far righters who picketed funerals of fallens soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan and said it was their fault for allowing gay rights, or some other nasty right wing BS. You seem to conveniently forget that.
Mr. Shaw,
Your article is excessive, serves no purpose, and makes no sense. I see that picture and I feel sympathy for John McCain and I feel sympathy for the Vietnamese.
If you're trying to elicit support for Obama and Clark this is not the way to go about it.
Absolutely right! Michael Shaw's mocking of a U.S. service man in distress was uncalled for.
It seems that we have several people here using the right's favorite technique: if we repeat a lie often enough and use it liberally in the premises of arguments, eventually many people will accept it as truth.
The lie this time: General Wesley Clark denigrated McCain's service. Didn't happen. It's an outright lie. And anyone who says otherwise is dimwitted or a liar. Period.
copernikus, you are absolutely correct.
However, no amount of facts or logic will persuade the right wing cheerleaders.
They are content to repeat the lie from the thought-free echo chamber.
Question then, nikus, why trot out a 4 star general? To validate McCain's service? Or to taint it by using a talking head like Clark who is pimping for Barack. The only thing Clark has is his rank and even that won't get him a drink anymore at any VFW post.
Funny thing is, it has probably backfired. It was probably aimed at those dimwitted middle class voters who voted for Hillary. Now the Obama campaign has spent gobs of time and energy responding to a stupid comment by Clark that was probably off the reservation and not approved by his handlers. Certainly its didn't get any traction with republicans.
One thing is a proven indicator of landing a solid punch and hitting the opponents weak spot is they scream like banshees and throw a lot of dust in the air. John McCain has made political hay out being shot down and that alone does not make him qualified to be president. He has conflated being shot down as a badge of leadership and it is clearly not that. Ergo Clark pointing out the obvious has triggered a lot of screaming and tossing dust in the air by Republican henchmen all to obscure the truth.
If I were Obama I'd hit him again and again on the same weak spot. Because it plainly hurts McCain.
The only people getting excited by this military service bashing are the lunatic fringe on the left. Those people have traditionally held no respect for the military or the service members, they are the ones who spit on the soldiers and protest when a ship returns home, they are the ones protesting the Marines in Berkeley.
Technically what Clark said was correct, McCains time as a POW, in itself, does not qualify him. But those 5 1/2 years are not McCains only experiences in life. He was a Naval Officer, trained to be a leader. He has been a Senator for over 2 decades. McCain has a lifetime of experience to draw from, and like Hillary said, Obama has a speech.
You should let this one go, just quit arguing with these people, they will tire themselves out. They are too dim to understand that Clarks comments only made Obama look inexperienced.
What was stupid about it? You right wingers keep talking about this like it was wrong, but don't offer ANY reasonable counter argument.
The fact is Gen Clark has been saying this for months and the Republicans knew he was right. So the only thing you guys could do is misrepresent it to deflect attention from the real VALID point: McCain is not qualified to be commander in chief.
My only question is - were you on the conference call where they came up with this disinformation strategy or are you just parroting the right wing BS you hear or read in the MSM?
There are an awful lot of comments attacking both McCain and Obama's credentials to being POTUS.
Pray tell, just exactly what was Dubya's credentials - and he served 2 terms!!!
That would be Americas foremost 'Liar in Chief'!!! Actually precedent setting!!! Commonly referred to as 'The Texas Wonder Boy'!!!
"By raising McCain's actual command experience as a campaign issue, however, Wesley Clark's weekend comments reframe the photo for posterity, "
Wesley Clark should be ashamed. Service members expect civilians to not understand or be able to articulate their lack of understanding of what it means to be away from family, wounded, sometimes hated by your own media and politicians, and then forgotten. Servicemembers do not expect to be politicized and stabbed in the back by a shameless general.
Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that being a general doesn't mean you have anything to add, being a lawyer doesn't, being a POW doesn't. But, denigrating the service or importance of a POW should cause outrage from the right and the left...all patriots. Clark's comments meant more than those of any MSM talking head. He is supposed to watch the back of his fellow servicemembers, not stab them. He is a opportunist of the worst sort and if there is any consolation it is that he will be seem for what he is...a panderer and pimp for the left.
FirstShirt,
Wesley Clark did not disparage John McCain or his service in any way. Being a veteran, serving in a war, or being shot down in an aircraft do not by themselves qualify one to be president, and that is all General Clark said. If you watched the interview, he praised John McCain. By your own words, you condemn General Clark for allegedly denigrating John McCain, even though he did not. You then give an extensive condescending opinion of Wesley Clark. This is a direct contradiction of your own words proscribing criticism of one veteran by another.
Here"s a shocking fact. Many veterans are liberals, and our service and our opinions are just as valid as yours are.
No, you're the one that should be ashamed. GENERAL CLARK DID NOT "DENIGRATE" McCAIN'S SERVICE, AND YOU'RE A LIAR FOR SAYING HE DID!
It's this kind of right wing BS that should cause outrage.
General Clark has become a political opportunist. He could have taken the road of Powell and been an asset to the country, no matter who the president is, but he chose a side and has become a tool.
What Clark did was disrespectful, perhaps only a fellow service member can fully understand.
Do you think the question of McCains war experience would have been asked if McCain wasn't pimping his 'war record'? If he is going to use his record for political gain then HE has to expect that others will comment on it. Fact of life, deal with it!!!
General (retired) Wes Clark has his own war record, he is mature enough to know that if he uses it in politics then others will also address it.
Did you defend John Kerry and his war time experience when he was viciously attacked in 2004?
This is only partly about McCain playing the victim, which is pretty pathetic. The main thing is that they are grabbing at excuse to bring out the actual SwiftBoater slime machine again to "defend" McCain from these "attacks."
Um...I am sorry but these attacks on McCains service are just horrible and a complete turn off.
McCain does not and has never claimed that he is qualified to be pres because he was a POW.
His service and actions during the war WERE and ARE honorable and do say a lot about his character...thats all.
To attack him on this, try to belittle it....for the sake of boosting Obama...is despicable.
Stop it.
I did not see any attack, Clark answered a direct question. John McCain puts his record out there for personal and political gain, are we all supposed to fall down and do obeisance to it?
He was not disrespected by this interview, Clark made a statement that you may disagree with but others will find is based on fact, besides it is true. Getting shot down in combat does not qualify one for POTUS!!!
Maybe Gen Clark should come clean about his actions as head of NATO in the bombing of the Chinese Embassy. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999/oct/17/balkans I might be willing to listen to something that came out his lying mouth if he would fess up to his and Bill Clinton's war crime.
I wonder why the Chinese government didn't ,well, just didn't, when their embassy was bombed. Wars have been started for much less.
The funny part of the cover up is the lie is stupid, we had old maps, anybody buying that.
The US and NATO had old maps that did not show the location of the Chinese Embassy that had been there since 1995? So when we dropped two precision guided JDAMs they hit the wrong building by mistake? Yet Gen Clark, George Tenet and Bill Clinton told this lie over and over. Why not just say we were aiming at a building down the street and something in the Chinese Embassy screwed up the guidance on the bombs. Oops. sorry about that China but what can we do you guys were messing around with our stuff and got stuffed. Nope, we have maps that show something else is suppose to be there not the Chinese Embassy, just think today the could use Google maps.
As someone who's followed the news for a lot of years, please be advised that many servicemen through the years who were captured and tortured and made to speak against their country (in the Korean War, e.g.) were indeed villified - and not by the lefties. No, no, this would have been by the arm-chair patriots who gather around the beer kegs of America. So this ridiculous notion that the left is somehow villifying Senator McCain for his capture just doesn't hold water. Period.
Do you ever read this blog?
If I were a democratic strategist I would be having a fit right now. Swift boating McCain is not smart in so many ways. Many Obama supporters who are independents or crossover republicans are watching how his campaign will reflect the real candidate. Obama's disclaimers are just more of the same spin. He uses surrogates to do the dirty work and then, once the dirty deed is done, he disclaims it. Wesley Clark was on a short leash...count on it. Think Obama would let him wander the earth being his normal offensive self? Once Wesley made his comments, which he innocently claimed were done with great respect, he was tossed under the bus by Obama. Wesley won't get any free drinks at the American Legion, you can bet.
FirstShirt, you falsely accuse General Clark of "Swift boating McCain."
You go on to say that no veteran should ever criticize another, mostly by using inflammatory language to make personal attacks on the character of General Clark.
Do you not realize that you come across as a flaming hypocrite for doing exactly what you falsely accuse General Clark of doing?
Posted July 2, 2008 | 02:53 PM (EST)