Much to my amazement, a post I did on Christianity and conservatives on May 10th has generated as much buzz and reaction as anything I have ever written. I have been quite surprised by this, as it was a post I wrote as much for myself, my family and a few old friends as it was to generate a wider debate. The issues I raised go over well-covered ground by many other writers and preachers: that Jesus identified far more with the poor than the rich, that he treasured the beloved community far more than rugged individualism, that he would be appalled by the Social Darwinist, selfishness-is-a-virtue brand of conservative politics currently in vogue in the modern conservative movement.
But it did get people going. There have been at least a half dozen posts written in response; I have gotten hundreds of email and Facebook responses, many by people I don't know; I have been asked by bloggingheads.tv to do a debate with a conservative minister today -- Bill Shuler -- and as of this post, there are almost 2,400 comments on the post on Huffington Post, which blows by my old record for post responses by close to 2,000. Apparently, this post really touched a nerve.
The responses I enjoyed the most were the foul mouthed, sometimes even threatening, nasty grams from all those "true Christians" who look forward to seeing me in Hell. That's always fun. But I was also touched by the large number of warm, thoughtful responses who wanted me to know that they agreed with me and were glad someone was saying what I said. I got the sense that there are a lot of people who are tired of conservatives loudly quoting the Bible and claiming to speak for all Christians when they really don't know much about the religion they claim to speak for. I also did have some Christians write me who misinterpreted my post, and thought that I was saying that all Christians are conservative-they wanted to assure me that was definitely not true, as they were both a committed Christian and a strong progressive. Since I have a lot of family members and dear friends who are both of those things, I did not think that, but was glad to get the additional reassurance.
The funniest response someone sent me was from a man who, among other things, asked if I was anti-Jewish, because some people when they move to the left go against Jews and Israel. I hadn't heard that one before, but its always refreshing to get some completely new (and utterly off the wall) question or response.
One of the most interesting blog posts published in response was by a conservative writer named Jameson Graber. He contended that I had made two mistakes. The first, he said, was that I viewed economics as a "zero-sum game". The second thing he talked about as a mistake was creating a false dichotomy between rich and poor, because "prosperity comes from all of us."
The zero-sum argument is an interesting one. I actually don't disagree with Graber that in market economies, entrepreneurs have the potential to generate new wealth out of relatively few resources except for good ideas and hard work. It is a wonderful thing when entrepreneurs manufacture products that consumers need and/or want, or when new technologies get created that provide value. I think both progressives and conservatives welcome that kind of innovation and added value to society as a result.
My argument, though, was not that market economics was a zero-sum game: my argument is that governments have to make choices about who they side with and who they don't. Graber quotes Exodus saying that a judge should not be partial to a poor man in a lawsuit, and paints a picture of an idealized free market where everyone has an equal ability to make their own way, to make something out of nothing. But markets get distorted by monopolies, oligopolies, fraud, sweetheart deals, and political influence. Markets develop bubbles and collapse. Consumers get sold bad products and tainted food that kills or maims them. Workers get abused and exploited. Innovative small businesspeople get intentionally squeezed out of markets by big businesses that don't want the competition.
The judicial system can sometimes (when they find out about the problem and have enough resources) deal with the problems that are outright crimes, but only a few of the problems mentioned above are even illegal. Judges should absolutely treat everyone equally under the law, but it's the rest of the government-the other two branches- that need to be involved to make markets work more fairly. And unlike the judicial branch of government, and unlike the free market in the private sector, the legislative and executive branches of government in the American system have to make choices. Every day. The results of these choices boil down to a simple formula: who benefits first, and who benefits most? Policymakers have to write budgets that impose taxes: who do they tax and at what level? They have to decide whether Social Security gets cut or not. They have to decide whether to raise, lower, abolish, or leave the minimum wage the same. They have to decide whether schools or the military budget or both get more money, or less.
I'm sorry if that seems zero-sum, but whatever you call it, it's a fact: elected political leaders have to make those choices. And when you are making these choices, as I discussed in my earlier post, it is really clear, it is undeniable in fact, which side the Jesus of the Bible was on. Which brings me to my other "mistake", as Graber puts it, that I was making a false dichotomy between rich and poor. Sorry, Jameson, but it is Jesus making that mistake: I'm just following his lead. As I document in my post, and Graber never even tries to actually refute (probably because there is no Biblical way to do it), Jesus in verse after verse stated he was on the side of the poor, and in verse after verse was dismissive, sometimes even openly hostile, to the wealthy.
Graber argues that "the policies of the Left (not sure why he capitalized it) provide incentives not to take risks and not to be productive." This is the argument of Glenn Beck and so many other conservatives, but it doesn't make any sense. Which would you rather be: Bill Gates or living on welfare? Or even just comfortably employed in a good job, with a nice house, able to take vacations and send your kids off to college, or living in cramped and dirty subsidized public housing with no capacity to do the things people in the middle class used to take for granted like take vacations and send their kids to college? Americans have plenty of incentives to be entrepreneurs and get good jobs. What they don't have is an economy that provides them a secure job and protection against economic predators and cheats.
Graber closes by trying to turn the story of the fishes and loaves into a metaphor for the free market system (It reminds me of when another conservative writer suggested the parable of the talents was actually Jesus supporting a cut in the capital gains tax: a major stretch, but I do admire the creativity.) Now most readers of the story of the loaves and the fishes would argue that it was a story about a miracle Jesus performed, or a story saying that we should not be afraid to be generous because God would provide to those who shared with their neighbors. But a metaphor for the free market system? C'mon, Jameson, lets get real: Jesus in the story doesn't charge any money for the food, or start a business in the town selling food, or loan people the food if they will give him back the equivalent in money with interest. He gives freely to all, and hungry people are fed as a result. It's pretty difficult to turn that into a metaphor for the free enterprise system.
I want to close by mentioning another conservative blogger named Joe, who wrote another post disagreeing with me. He did the usual snarky stuff that conservatives always do, although I do give him credit for his attempt at framing: "Conservatives believe in individual liberty while Liberals (there's that capitalization thing again) prefer to defer to 'community rule'...Think of it in these terms: "one person can make a difference" vs. "it takes a village". Here's the deal, though: progressives believe that both of these options are possible, that we can have individual liberty and community, that one person can make a difference but that we live our lives as part of an interdependent community. And, by the way, if we are forced to make a choice, it is clear as a bell that the Jesus of the Bible believed quite strongly in community over individualism.
My favorite paragraph from Joe, though, was a rather odd tangent on how governing by elite politicians was like being in school recess and not getting chosen for playing on a team. According to this truly funky metaphor, "government" won't pick you if you are the unathletic kid and were picked last. I know, I know, I don't get it either, since government actually tends to help the slow and handicapped kids. But you gotta love Joe's metaphoric creativity.
This whole Christianity and progressives thing clearly gets people going. I'm glad I was able to stimulate such a big conversation. Check out my debate with Rev. Shuler tomorrow and tell me how I did.
Cross-posted at my home blog, OpenLeft.com, where you can read all of my writing.
Stanley Hauerwas: People Are Surprised That I Am Surprised That I Am a Christian
Of all the responses I've received to my memoir, the response I find most surprising is the surprise many express about my surprise that I am a Christian.
Bill Gates didn't just become a billionaire overnight. He slep on a couch in a small apartment when he first started. He had to bust his tail for years to even make a decent living. Everyone has the same OPPORTUNITY, but some choose not to take advantage of it because of the hard work involved. Do you truly believe there are no lazy people in the world? There are people who don't have enough motivation to work hard when they already have enough government support to get by.
I am all for taking care of those who cannot care for themselves since Jesus said that was akin to taking care of him, however, God intends for us to be productive and honor him in our daily work as we are able. There is the wisdom of Proverbs 14:23 and the message of Jeremiah 29:11 and many other passages that reinforce a simple message - God wants us to prosper through hard work, and that hard work is the only way to prosper because it honors God.
I have read and studied the New Testament with scholars. There is nothing Jesus says about "just believe in me and you will be saved". That's really bad theology perpetrated by uneducated preachers. Here's what Jesus really taught:
1) Feed the hungry
2) Heal the sick
3) Visit people in prison
4) Love your neighbor at least as much as you love yourself
5) Stay in the moment (remember the lilies of the field…)
6) Don’t fault find without a lot of introspection and training (removing the huge log from your own eye…)
7) Do good works without announcing them all over the internet or in commercials
8) Pay your taxes (render unto Caesar…)
9) Don’t suffer fools gladly
10) Be full of compassion and ready to forgive
11) Constantly be in communion with the Divine
You will notice what is missing on this list: anything about homosexuals or their behavior, any dietary prescriptions, anything about a woman’s right to terminate her pregnancy, anything about the right to bear arms, anything about the use of Jesus’ name for salvation or anything about the end of the world (yes, he alluded to end times but in such a vague way, and he never referred to the writings that were to come, obviously ie. "revelations"). If all you do is believe and repent then you are not really following his teachings at all.
Thank you for tearing down the nonsense, absolutist black-and-white definitions of progressives that conservatives (who do tend to think in black and white) project onto us. Thank you for using your forum to define what it means to be a progressive. These thoughts often run through my mind, and I'm happy that someone with a larger megaphone is saying them.
And don't even think of climbing into the country-club lifeboat ...
This, however, is quit impractical, as it would mean they would all probably starve to death and die, due to the lack of magic.
So, christians have had to figure out how to master cognitive dissonance just to make it through daily life. Nobody practices 'true christinity', because that would be insane
Where does Jesus tell us to quit our jobs?
Where does Jesus tell us to live in a cave or commune?
Where does Jesus tell us to spend our whole life praying (he actually condemned 'show-off' righteousness, according to the Bible)?
Your assumptions are all demonstrably wrong. Your whole argument is nonsense.
"Nobody practices 'true christinity'... [sic]". I agree with that. However, some are closer than others, and the consevative right talks and lives a polar opposite of the New Testament scripture (including that specific beef of His about 'show-off' righteousness).
By the way, 'true christinity' as you call it is not insane. In fact, I have come to believe it is our only salvation (as Christ pointed out).
Ironically, I also believe that natural selection will sort it out for us. Either we will learn to live with each other in harmony, or we will be extinct, and fairly soon, because we now have the tools of our own extinction. We will evolve really quickly in the direction suggested by Christ, or we won't be around.
It's our choice to make.
[One can argue that we can't evolve quickly enough. Maybe not, and for that reason, I am not hugely optimistic. But species-ending capability is now available, so 'selection' might occur very quickly.]
In any case, I strongly suspect that the choices that the human race makes this century will decide our fate.
At least we live in interesting times! What a show!
For example:
"Ironically, I also believe that natural selection will sort it out for us. Either we will learn to live with each other in harmony, or we will be extinct, and fairly soon, because we now have the tools of our own extinction. "
Not really ironic, but, it is contradictory. If you really believed what jesus was on about, you would know that humanity cant kill itself off, because Jesus needs to come back and judgement day and all that jazz.
as for the rest, I'm not cherry picking verses, the overall message of the entire new testament is just that...after all, remember the lilies
Jesus gave out free food, wine and health care.
Why?
If you're going to make something important, you put it first, or save it for last. I'm going for the former. Without repentance and forgiveness, our efforts toward a Heaven on Earth will be for naught, Mr. Lux.
Everything we can find wrong in this world is revolves around our sin, Mr. Lux, including our abuses of wealth and not taking care of the poor. The only solution is asking Jesus to forgive us and having the Holy Spirit in us to 'cheer and to guide' as the hymn says. At that point, we should start seeing results. To the degree it doesn't should make us question our salvation.
On a personal note, I'd much rather see you in Heaven than be eternally separated from God. I pray I see you there.
If we don't admit our own sin, we can't make the correct choices to help others.
And conservatives just think that grand large government cannot help the poor unless they first look to getting the poor jobs, and if the govt gets too involved in private enterprise, there will be no jobs and you progressives will just send free money their way.
Ever hear of "if you don't work , you don't eat?" Look it up.
Charity has its limits once people become too dependent on it, especially the inefficient govt kind.
i really don't see how one can be an american and think the 1st commandment applies to all citizens. our biggest pride is freedom of religion and free speach.
so if one thinks others religions are ok, and some people are exempt from commandment #1, then why do religious conservatives then insist that all the other rules and commandments (like pre-marital sex, abortion, or homosexuality) should apply to all people, if the most important rule #1 does not.
did all the societies (american natives, aboriganals, pigmies, etc., really burn in hell, or were prevented from heaven because the christians did not get to them for over a thousand years. making people accountable to your views, when they don't know them is rather funny.
so why should Mr. Lux, or anyone american bow to your perceptions when we founded this country to be free of that very idea, anothers religion forced upon us.
Point is, one cannot be anything, American or otherwise unless one acknowledges his Creator. The Founding Fathers didn't have to put God in the Constitution (unless you count the First Amendment as it acknowledges that a belief in God is a Constitutional right), as they acknowledged the Source of the rights they were protecting with it. Their faith didn't intefere with creating a new government, but it did guide them in guaranteeing rights to a larger percentage of people than had ever been done by any government.
Your basic point is right though. There are different ways we can measure how well things are going. In the '80s measurements would tracked primarily how well the wealthy were doing counted it as a good decade. Measurements of poverty and crime rates tracked it as a bad decade. It does seem that someone who is a believer in the Gospels should be more concerned with the latter than the former.
It could have been the case that trickle down economics really helped the poor. And in such a case there is no reason why beleivers in the Gospels should not have favored trickle down economics. But in reality it did not. And the supporters of trickle down economics always focused on economic indicators which suggested a lack of concern with how the poor were doing.
Both are pretty annoying.