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MJ Rosenberg

MJ Rosenberg

Posted: February 2, 2010 03:35 PM

Ehud Barak Calls Endless Occupation Apartheid

What's Your Reaction:

It's been three years since Jimmy Carter was demonized as anti-Semitic for writing that if Israel maintained the occupation without giving Palestinians full rights, it would become an apartheid state.

And now Israel's hawkish Defense Minister -- and most highly decorated soldier -- agrees.

Speaking at a conference outside Tel Aviv, Barak said, if "millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state."

Currently, Israel's democracy applies only within the pre-'67 lines. The millions of Palestinians in the occupied territories have no democratic rights. Barak is saying that Israel must either get out of the territories or be another apartheid South Africa.

Exactly what President Carter said.

Except when Israel's Defense Minister says it, he is also saying that Israel cannot defend itself unless it ends the occupation.

That is why supporters of a secure Israel must oppose the occupation. Thanks, Minister Barak. But then it is easier to speak the truth about the occupation in Israel than here in Washington. You don't have the lobby to deal with.

 

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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
chaimschwartz
10:51 AM on 02/03/2010
Would appreciate it if the Israeli bashers would tell us what the Arabs would be giving up to get their own State? Other than their "word" they would behave! LOL!
11:15 AM on 02/03/2010
You mean after Israel gave it's "word" that it would not increase the illegal settlements after Oslo, Taba, the Arab Initiative, and the Roadmap? Laughable sneaky hypocrisy from Israel. And what about all those illegal terrorist settlers? When do you think Israel will get them to "behave".

The Palestinains are not the ones getting their olive trees chopped down, fields burned, houses raided at night, houses confiscated, rights taken away, and living under an apartheid system. The Palestinains aren't occupying anyones land, Israel is.
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chaimschwartz
09:00 AM on 02/03/2010
Barak said if millions of Palestinians couldn't vote that would make Israel an Apartheid State. BUT they all can vote..either for Hamas, Fatah, or anyone else on their ballots. Of course, those Arab Palestinians who chose not to be Israeli citizens cannot vote in Israeli elections...just like non-American citizens cannot vote in America. What's so controversial about that. In closing...all Israeli citizens..including the 20% who are Arabs..CAN vote in Israeli elections..except for criminals..be they Jewish, Christian, or Muslim.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Wisdo
semantics shamantics
09:31 AM on 02/03/2010
The problem is Israel retains control over and applies its laws to, the occupied territories. Thats why they are called "the occupied territories". Its because they are occupied by Israel.

So you can vote for Hamas if you like, but hey cant actually do anything positive without Israeli permission. Except fight back against the occupation. Oh but that makes them "terrorists".
09:42 AM on 02/03/2010
great blog Wisdo
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chaimschwartz
09:59 AM on 02/03/2010
Even if Israel was NOT in the West Bank.....the Arabs there would not be Israeli citizens..so they could not vote in Israel, anyway. They could still vote for their own leaders, as they do now. They could still vote for whichever terrorist group they wanted to lead them..Hamas..or Fatah aka the PLO.Your point is moot.
10:13 AM on 02/03/2010
If you were a Palestinian, living in the west bank, you could vote for Hamas or Fatah, sure, while your Israeli neighbors voted for seats in the Knesset, but what would that get you? Palestine, the occupied territories are not a sovereign state that can control its own borders. Down the street, a new Jewish settlement might be going up, while you, as a Palestinian, would have trouble getting a building permit to expand your overcrowded house. Do you have any recourse in such matters? No, because it is the Israeli government that makes such policies, not the Palestinian Authority. As a Palestinian, you have no way to influence Israeli policy regarding the territory that you inhabit.

Seems to me there are 3 possibilities for Israel/Palestine:

1) Create a sovereign Palestinian state alongside Israel.

2) Institute real democracy, allowing the Palestinians to vote for seats in the Knesset. In about 25 years, the Palestinian population will grow to the point that it will be larger than the population of Jewish Israelis, so if solution 2 is adopted, Israel will cease to be a "Jewish state" per se.

3) Apartheid. In the Apartheid model, the whites in South Africa deprived the blacks of South African citizenship, and instead made them citizens of nominally self-governing homelands with no real power. This is closest, in my opinion, to what exists today...

I favor option 1.
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chaimschwartz
10:36 AM on 02/03/2010
I do too.but what will the Arabs be giving up to make peace?? Their word that they'll behave? LOL!
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chaimschwartz
10:43 AM on 02/03/2010
More Arabs should have opted for Israeli citizenship-just to vote out the fact it is the Jewish Homeland..but even Lawrence of Arabia couldn't have gotten them to do the really smart thing because most of them do not even recognize Israel's existence..like many posters here!
08:49 AM on 02/03/2010
great blog . . . thank you for posting . . . I hope it makes those who uncritically support Israel think . . . Israel is its own worst enemy and the US and US MSM has not done Israel any favours by being uncritical . . .
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chaimschwartz
08:47 AM on 02/03/2010
Just noticed this is the second blog on the World page on the same topic. just wondered why that was necessary?
04:18 AM on 02/03/2010
Back to reality.
Barak said IF West Bank Palestinians become Israeli citizens and IF they're prohibited from voting THEN n and ONLY then will Israel be considered an apartheid state.
This is three hypothetical statements in one sentence.
To derive the from that statement that " Barak called Endless Occupation Apartheid" is irresponsbile and in keeping with blatant anti-Israel propaganda peddled by some.
08:28 AM on 02/03/2010
Well let's put the statement aside and just go by the facts.
It looks like apartheid, smells like apartheid, talks like apartheid,walks like apartheid - it is apartheid.
And all the old anti israel claims are banal in the extreme.
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chaimschwartz
08:50 AM on 02/03/2010
Thanks for making the case for Israel not being an Apartheid state. It doesn't look,smell,talk, or walk like an Apartheid state..but the Palestinian society sure does. There are no Jews in the PA and no Jews can even live in Arab cities. That's real Apartheid,isn't it?
09:04 PM on 02/02/2010
How can Israel be an Apartheid State when 20% of its citizens are Arabs...and 20% of its Knesset members are also Arabs???
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lbsaltzman
Permaculture and Sustainability
09:43 PM on 02/02/2010
Easy. It treats it's Palestinians citizens as second class. And the treatment of Palestinians living under the occupation is worse than Apartheid.
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StCuthbert
Anytime the mods are ready...
08:15 AM on 02/03/2010
"the treatment of Palestinians living under the occupation is worse than Apartheid."

Completely false.
08:30 AM on 02/03/2010
Go read up on apartheid S Africa - then just list all the same characteristics visible in Israel.
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chaimschwartz
08:52 AM on 02/03/2010
I did..it sounds like the Palestinian Arab society of Gaza and the West Bank !
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EnMasse
07:20 PM on 02/02/2010
"You don't have the lobby to deal with." Fantastic finale :-) And so true. If the New York Times printed 1/100 of what Haaretz prints, Americans would have been swarming the streets protesting the Gaza massacre. There is such an insidious, threatening climate in the US where debate on Israel is concerned, that Americans have no sense of the story.

Imagine. Jimmy Carter, the one US president brave enough to weather the lobby and force Israel and that terrorist Begin to the negotiating table - delivering the first Israeli-Arab peace deal - has been carefully and systematically undermined since he left the oval office. Not for striking a peace treaty for Israel, but for daring to force Israel into doing something it didn't want to do then.

Thank you Mr. Rosenberg for bringing these pieces to our attention. Btw, Barak also said a week or so ago that not having peace was more dangerous than any Iranian nuke. Didn't see that on the HuffPo though.
10:32 PM on 02/02/2010
Absolutely.

Take a look at the UK coverage of israel's oppression of the Palestinians. Try reading the reports in the Guardian and the Independent. Only the US soft-pedals on the criminal treatment of the Palestinians. In this regard, the "liberal" New York Times is shamefully pro-israel and in recent months has virtually stopped reporting on what is actually happening.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
11:46 AM on 02/05/2010
it's a simple matter of looking at the ownership of the mainstream media, hollywood, wall street and therefore American industry.

as a critical pin-hole view into the world of NY finance manipulating our congress, administration, tax dollars and economy to their personal benefit read the 4/26/09 NY Times article "Geithner, Member and Overseer of Finance Club" By JO BECKER and GRETCHEN MORGENSON and the accompanying graphic "Mr. Geithner’s World."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/business/27geithner.html?_r=1&em=&pagewanted=all

as for hollywood the following article could only be written by Joel Stein.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,4676183.column

this is one of the comments posted to Joel's article:

Yes,the most powerfull weapon on earth is to control all communications and the money.Yes,we control hollywood,newspapers,news media,book publishers,education have the strongest lobbies that control all goy politians who might step out of line. You might as well face it there will be no andy or opie.We decide the culture not you. As sharon once said don't worry about the u.s we control the u.s. and the americans know it. I'm tired of hiding our power.We are your masters. Who is the federal reserve? its us morons,and we loan all countries money with interest with only the cost of ink and paper.No use in fighting us that time is long gone!
Submitted by: Paul Cohen
6:04 PM PST, December 19, 2008
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MarieNat
Lobbyist, wanna make something of it?
05:05 PM on 02/02/2010
That's precisely what it is. Not sure why that's considered a controversial thing to say.
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TheLonelyGod
The oncoming storm
04:43 PM on 02/02/2010
Carter was attacked for not only spreading the apartheid accusation, but for slandering in Israel in many different ways, and then refusing to admit he was wrong.

He also said in the book that the *current* occupation, "a system of apartheid, with two peoples occupying the same land, but completely separated from each other, with Israelis totally dominant and suppressing violence by depriving Palestinians of their basic human rights."

This is not what Barak said.
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batguano
As Long As Grass Grow, Wind Blow & The Sky Is Blue
07:17 PM on 02/02/2010
Could you list the "slandering in Israel in many different ways" that Prez Carter did/spoke and possibly a link to explain it further? Without that your acusation is empty slander in itself.
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TheLonelyGod
The oncoming storm
08:22 PM on 02/02/2010
Here are a couple of examples:
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=3&x_outlet=18&x_article=1623
10:34 PM on 02/02/2010
Carter was right 2 years ago and predicted the continuing move to total apartheid.
08:51 AM on 02/03/2010
agree totally baffy . . Carter was right . . . I knew it before and find it even more true now . . .
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chaimschwartz
08:53 AM on 02/03/2010
No..he ,in fact, later apologized for the comments!