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MJ Rosenberg

MJ Rosenberg

Posted: October 7, 2009 12:58 PM

Israeli Ambassador Explodes: Gaza War Critics Are Calling Us Nazis

What's Your Reaction:

Israel's Ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, writing in The New Republic, says that the Goldstone Report "portrays the Jews as the deliberate murderers of innocents--as Nazis. And a Nazi state not only lacks the need and right to defend itself; it must rather be destroyed."

This is crazy stuff, especially because it comes not from some rightwing crank but from Israel's highest ranking diplomat who serves in its most significant diplomatic post. Oren is also an intellectual, an author who is American born and educated.

Oren's take on the Goldstone report is ridiculous. In fact, nowhere in his piece does he dispute the report's finding that Israel (and Hamas) committed war crimes during the Gaza war.

Reading Oren, one would never know that 1,387 Palestinians (including 320 children) were killed compared to nine Israeli soldiers. Nowhere does he discuss the testimony of the Israeli soldiers who have told Goldstone, as well as Israeli groups investigating the conduct of the war, that the Israeli army repeatedly made no distinction between combatants and innocents.

No, all Oren wants to do is shoot the messenger - the distinguished South African jurist, Richard Goldstone, himself Jewish - for having produced a report that "goes further than Ahmadinejad and the Holocaust deniers by stripping the Jews not only of the ability and the need but of the right to defend themselves."

What, in heaven's name, does Goldstone have to do with Ahmadinejad? Nothing.

But Oren conflates them and then throws in anyone who advocates Israeli territorial compromise:

Ahmadinejad's genocidal rhetoric and the iniquity of the Goldstone Report notwithstanding, Israel will, of course, continue to defend its citizens. No amount of vitriol will compel Israel onto a course of self-destruction. ... Israelis, moreover, will not withdraw from any territory liable to become staging grounds for terrorist groups empowered by international agencies and convinced of their ability to murder Israelis with impunity.

Someone needs to tell the overwrought diplomat that invoking the Nazis regardless of the provocation is quickly becoming the last refuge of scoundrels. It is also ineffective (look at the US health care debate where the memory of Holocaust victims is debased by its use to prove or disprove almost any argument about anything).

Richard Goldstone would not strip Israel of its right, its obligation, to defend its citizens. Hardly. He has been involved in pro-Israel activities during his entire life. As for those who support the two-state solution, they are trying not to "compel Israel onto a course of self-destruction" but to help Israel avoid straying on to that course.

Doesn't Oren remember the late Yizhak Rabin? What would he think of this diatribe by an Israeli diplomat?

Stick to the facts, Ambassador.

Crossposted Media Matters Action Network

 

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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Fractal122635
05:03 AM on 10/17/2009
Of course Oren doesn't discuss the alleged "War crimes" because they are de facto lies.
Goldstone "interviews" came from the same discredited cranks the media rushed to embrace and who were all proven to have not seen what they claimed to (this number is in the small single digits).

This is in direct contrast to Hamas which OPENLY brags about their use of civilian shields going so far as to post videos about it!!

Please, cut the Orwellian recasting of this fiction and speak the truth.

WIthout there will never be peace.

When the Arabs put down their arms, recognize Israel and commit to creating a state, they will have one, IMMEDIATELY.
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08:28 AM on 10/15/2009
You said it, Mr Ambassador. Not me.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Freenation
10:52 PM on 10/08/2009
mr. rosenberg, the diplomat in question maybe intellectual as you put but is reality he is part of netany.ahoo govt, which ultimately means he has to defend the govt. no matter what it comes to...

palestinians should honor goldstone for generations for the justice he has served to them...had this report been penned by some other person the i.sraeli spin machine would have shred it from day 0....
02:35 PM on 10/08/2009
It's frustrating,... here's Obama instructing his U.N. ambassador to threaten the Palestinians to drop their demand for a war-crimes hearing. Why would he do this? Doesn't Obama want the truth? Is he swayed too much by Emanuel? Same with Honduras, Obama could stop the right-wing U.S. inspired military coup there immediately if he wanted to,. He doesn't though because he wants to hit back at Chavez in Venezuela, though I personally think Hillary Clinton is behind the Honduras mess.

And here's poor old Mitchell, taking all kinds of abuse at the hands of Israelis, and being swatted about like a shuttlecock, and neither Obama or Clinton has a thing to say about it.

Obama is turning out to be an empty vessel. Does the man have ANY convictions at all?
05:10 PM on 10/08/2009
I don't disagree. Obama came out with both guns blazing but after a couple of quick jabs from Netanyahu he has backed into a corner. Enormously disappointing. I can only assume that Mitchell is very embarrassed.
Assuming that the hearings on Goldstone are resurrected it will be interesting to see if the US again steps in to protect Israel.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TheLonelyGod
The oncoming storm
05:29 PM on 10/08/2009
--PA leader Mahmoud Abbas arrived in Washington for his first trip and said he had no intention of compromising on anything but would just wait until the United States delivered an Israel which had to give up everything.

--Abbas refused to negotiate with Israel unless he had a total freeze of construction on all settlements with no exceptions despite Obama’s desperate efforts to get talks going.

--Arab states asked to make small confidence-building steps toward Israel to help the president said “No!”
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
piul05
Are you looking at my ears?! (Mo-om!!!)
06:49 PM on 10/08/2009
In fact, in terms of foreign policy I kind of expect this, but was hoping to be proved wrong.

Not only isn't international relations his forte, but also his discourse on the subject has always been the equivalent of a center-right "paint-by-number" - his speech in New York last year being a case in point.

As to Mr. Rosenberg - sir, you do know that you make a lot of sense a lot of the time, don't you? It must get quite lonely sometimes...

Keep up the good work.
01:45 PM on 10/08/2009
One thing that Israel, the US, and the Family ("C" Street) have in common is the misguided belief in their exceptionalism. Ergo, they can do no wrong and will brook no criticism.
11:16 AM on 10/09/2009
you have that right holeybuybull
01:38 PM on 10/08/2009
As a decendant of African slaves whose history shares some similiarty with that of the Jew's, I am confounded that Ambassador Oren is completely unaware that the path Isreal is currently on is what will cause what he thinks the Goldstone report is purporting.

And yes every time the holocost or black racial card is used unnecessarily or as a distraction to prevent legitimate discourse, it reduces the reciept of the empathy and understanding which each group seeks.
02:18 PM on 10/08/2009
Precisely, African Americans are not trying to create an "African" state inside of America. Black nationalism was crushed a long time ago, and so was White nationalism. But Jewish Nationalism has been alive since long before the European Holocaust...

Since its founding in 1897, the Zionist Organization of America has been fighting for the Jewish people and the Land of Israel.
http://www.zoa.org/content/about_us.asp
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Wisdo
semantics shamantics
12:04 PM on 10/08/2009
I agree
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SpoonieLuv
I am defending myself, in favor of THAT
10:39 AM on 10/08/2009
The people who compare the Israeli government to Nazism are generally extremists on the margins on this debate. However, for Mr. Oren to pick up this extremist rhetoric and hurl it back at all those who support a free Palestine would suggest that he is equally radical in his views, but on the other side of the spectrum of ideas. If Michael Oren represents the calibur of people that Israel sends abroad to represent its own government, then the Israeli voice will quickly become more irrelevant in this debate.

We know that Israel deliberately massacred civilians from accounts such as the Zeitoun massacre. As this article shows http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072466.html , Israeli militants even celebrate their atrocities by wearing t-shirts depicting their crimes. Are Israeli militant groups Nazis? No, for they represent another ideology and another time in history. But they certainly are a backwards people with no respect for human life who cannot be allowed to continue their reign of terror over the Palestinian people. They certainly cannot continue to be given the most advanced arms technology by the United States, yet this shameful chapter in American foreign policy repeats itself every day.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TheLonelyGod
The oncoming storm
10:47 AM on 10/08/2009
The "t-shirts" thing again?

First of all, the IDF is not 'Israeli militants.' I don't know why you would say that.

Second, two units were the ones who made shirts like those. That's right, two. Out of the entire Israeli army. Is that enough to generalize all of them? you be the judge.

Third, if you look closely at the shirts you would see that most of the Palestinians depicted on them are holding weapons. In the article you cited, the pregnant woman on the shirt was holding an AK47. Bad taste? Duh. A "crime"? I'm not so sure.

Oh, and just in case someone gets the impression that I approve of the shirts, I don't. The soldiers who make and wear them are idiots.
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SpoonieLuv
I am defending myself, in favor of THAT
11:26 AM on 10/08/2009
The Ha'aretz report would suggest that the practice of celebrating terrorism through the printing of these t-shirts is more widespread than you seem to believe. And this practice would suggest that most Israeli militants are not morally or intellectually developed enough to be allowed to use these weapons (and yes, they are militants - you can't just put on uniforms, give yourself ranks and run around killing civilians with weapons given by a foreign country pretending that you are a legitimate military). Honestly, do you think that groups like the IDF are responsible enough to use American weaponry?
02:12 PM on 10/08/2009
One tends to hold weapons in defence of the self. Especially when your enemy is armed to the nine by the great, benevolent and peaceful USA.

Honestly, blaming the victim is perhaps what causes god this chasm of lonliness and despair that the world particularly, a certain part in the middle east is going througn.
01:52 PM on 10/08/2009
They certainly can continue to receive these arms. Who is America posseses the leadership and courage to stop it. No there is not one!
10:36 AM on 10/08/2009
Where was Goldstone when thousands of rockets were being unprovokedly fired at Israeli towns? Where was Goldston when Palestinian terrorists called on the population of Gaza to help in the war against the Zionists, thus making civilians part of their war effort?
Why is the report limited to the period of time when Israel attacked Gaza instead of looking back on the few last years which actually triggered Israel to respond?
12:04 PM on 10/08/2009
It's kind of hard to make peace when you don't talk to your enemy. The Israeli leadership is uncompromising and determined to wage war rather than peaceful diplomacy
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TheLonelyGod
The oncoming storm
12:56 PM on 10/08/2009
The Camp David Accords, the Israel-Egypt peace treaty, the 1989 Peace Initiative, the Madrid Peace Conference, the Oslo Accords, the Israel-Jordan peace treaty, the Washington Declaration, Oslo 2, the Wye River Memorandum, the Camp David Summit, and the Taba Conference all seem to disagree with that conclusion.

You can read more here:
http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.5471279/k.A2D9/Timeline_of_IsraeliArab_Peace_Initiatives_since_1977_updated_Sept_18_2009.htm
12:26 PM on 10/18/2009
Gaza fired fired another rocket into Isael last night , that makes about 250 since cast Lead.
nobody in the UN is calling hamass to stop the rockets , i think hamass is trying to provoke Israel into a postion where they will have to go into gaza.
Hamass is using the arab population as human sheilds to fire into Israel thats a war crime.
where is Goldston now ? The UN? .. their all waiting for Israel to respond so they can pounce.
Its time for Israel to shut off the Gas and power to the gaza strip and let eygpt to take care of their own.
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jwcmass
I dream of things that never were and ask Why not
07:26 PM on 10/09/2009
Israel is free to aks that the UN set up a commission to look at those years.

But if you are going to investigate Hamas, then you have to investigate the blockade -- which IS an act of war, every bit as much as launching a rocket.

Even with the extreme threat that the Cuban Missle Crisis brought about (now THOSE were rockets which could cause catastrophic death and destruction) the US in its blockade of Cuba allowed ships to pass which did not contain OFFENSIVE nuclear weapons. Food and other necessities were allowed through.
10:46 AM on 10/13/2009
And what would US government would done, if Cubans were lunch the rockets?

Besides:


Israel keeps sending supplies to Gaza even under fire. In addition Gaza has a border with Egypt, so there is no such a thing, like "Israeli blockade".

Regarding the suffering of palestinian people - you can't declare a war (so called "resistance") on a powerful enemy and to expect, that it will be no response.

Other, if you are seeking for a victory in "Media/Public Opinion/Propaganda" war. Then the dead bodies of your children will become a powerful weapon. So, what can I say....the Goldstone Report is one more evidence, that such a war was won by Hamas.
10:29 AM on 10/08/2009
Mr. Rosenberg-excellent blog. Keep it up.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TheLonelyGod
The oncoming storm
10:02 AM on 10/08/2009
Mr. Rosenberg, I'm not sure if you have noticed, but people have been accusing Israel of "being like the Nazis" or "acting like the Nazis" for years. Quite a few people on the Huffington Post have said as much themselves.

Oren made his comments because the Goldstone Report said that Israel "had carried out direct intentional strikes against civilians" based on (let's be generous) questionable testimonies. Failing to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants? Sure, I'll buy that. Disproportionate force? I could see the argument.
But *intentionally killing civilians?* That's insane, and Israel has every right to be p.o'd at this accusation. Goldstone needed a much better investigative method before he is going to go around slinging this conclusion.
10:26 AM on 10/08/2009
Lonely God...I understand that you are upset about the Goldstone Report mentioning Israel
intentionally killing civilians. This is the viewpoint of most of the world community. Is Goldstone
a 'self-hating Jew' because he is striving for justice?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TheLonelyGod
The oncoming storm
10:38 AM on 10/08/2009
The "world community" thinks that Israel went in there trying to kill as many civilians as possible? I don't think so. The "HuffPo community," maybe.

Nice strawman, btw. I didn't call Goldstone a 'self-hating Jew.' I don't think he is. But I don't think that he's "striving for justice," either. His mission was to find facts, not draw conclusions, though he did so anyway.
01:57 PM on 10/08/2009
Goldstone understands that it is this kind of one sidedness that caused the decent into the inhumane inferno in recent world history. He is beckoning his fellow humans to reverse the path they are on.

His call to sanity may just be insufficient at this juncture as the taste and curruption of power has become addictive and must be heeded.
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
WorkingClass
10:55 AM on 10/08/2009
What? The collective punishment of Gaza and Lebanon was an accident? There are Americans who think the same way regarding Iraq. Ooops. We seem to have illegally invaded and destroyed your country and killed or dislocated your people.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TheLonelyGod
The oncoming storm
11:08 AM on 10/08/2009
You seem to be strawmanning a bit. No one said those military actions were accidental. Nor are they "collective punishment," btw, nor were they illegal.
09:19 AM on 10/08/2009
And another thing, Mr. Rosenberg, Michael Oren is a human being. Yes, he is an intellectual, yes this that and whatever you say, Mr. Rosenberg. Michael Oren is also a person who, like everyone else, when under pressure, being attacked and then being accused in addition, may speak up, have an emotional reaction, and yes, even snap. But Michael Oren did not snap. His indignation is very well placed. You know, it is not easy to be a target and to never be safe anywhere. Rosenberg is a good jewish name, but not all of us jews have identical experiences. Some are never present when action against jews happen. Others are always in the middle of it. Living in Israel has its problems. Example, when WWII started, my neighbor, a boy one or two years older than I, spoke urgently to me over the fence. He and his family were moving to England the very next day! He said that we should move immediately also. Nico Rosenberg may have survived the war relatively easily and out of scot elsewhwere. That was his name, Nico. I, on the other hand, have had quite a different experience, and I might well have snapped (I did not).
09:09 AM on 10/08/2009
What has also appeared on videos was one of a frequent visitor (tourist) to Israel. He was not a jew, nor an Israeli. He just happened to be in Sderot during a kassam attack out of Gaza and filmed it. In Sderot everyone rushed into shelters. A view of the inside of such a shelter was displayed. Not one kid was stupid enough to go stand on any roof! We could hear, on that video, the sirens go off and we could see kassams hitting civilian residences. There have been more videos, a.o. of air surveillances of Gazans shooting kassams out of schools. Now I do not know why I am the only one who just happened to stumble on those kinds of videos all the time, and Goldstone, apparently, never saw even one, or, if he did concluded that it was irrelevant. It may have been irrelevant to the action, but it occurred, again and again, before Israel took action. If the world, the UN, and Goldstone could have been moved to say something about these situations before Israeli action, or even now before the stoning in Jerusalem goes any further, the outcome might have been different and lives certainly would not have been lost.
02:51 PM on 10/08/2009
No one is denying that both parties are accountable.

You have to admit though that Israel has the intelligence, the practiced history in the use of warfare and the ability to use proportionate responses; that the customary disproportionate reponse is a matter of policy.

You must admit that if the Massad wants to kill only the instigator of the rocket launches that they could, without mindlessly killing approximately 1400 hundred Palestinians?

The killing of women, children, and the elderly was a direct result of this indiscriminate practice.

At the end of it all are you saying that a well honed war machine such as Israel’s could not have responded differently?

Considering what the lives of women and children mean in both jewish and arab culture - do you think it is easier to suffer the loss of approximately 1400 arabs than it is to suffer the loss of 9 jews?

Are you expecting many to buy this argument? In the end, very few of the actual perpetrators died.

Mostly the defenceless continue to die- can you imagine the shoe on the other foot? Does this not break your heart?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
StCuthbert
Anytime the mods are ready...
08:47 PM on 10/08/2009
The ratio of combatants to civilians killed in Cast Lead is approximately 1:1, making it the lowest ratio EVER in recorded modern warfare. The IDF did everything they could to minimize causalities, but because they weren't perfect and Hamas actively sought to increase the number of civilian casualties, civilians died anyway. Israel did the best it could, HAMAS is the one you should be condemning. They started the war, they exacerbated it, and they used tactics that resulted in a higher body count than there had to be.
09:00 AM on 10/08/2009
There were reports of Arab children *playing on roofs* during the action by Israel. How interesting! I have lived under war conditions during WWII and during attacks we rushed into shelters as children. Not one of us was foolish enough to go stand and *play* on a roof!! These playing children were not only on a roof, they were *playing* on the roof of buildings out of which kassams were being fired off! Now, I know that there are different opinions about those *playing children*, but I know that my parents would have yanked me off such a roof had I been dumb enough to go play there under war conditions. In addition, on youtube and elsewhere, short videos have appeared of Lebanese and Gaza *Palestinians* declaring that as soon as they received warning from Israel about impending attacks they would send their children to the roofs in order to protect the building! Now, if that is not using innocent civilians as human shields, I do not know what is.It is one thing to theorize about such matters, it is another thing to have lived under war conditions. Anyone who has lived under war conditions knows full well, even children, that a military attack is not spring rain into which children jump out to play! Give me a break!!
08:50 AM on 10/08/2009
If two neighbors have issues, and one neighbor constantly throws stones at the other, knocks out windows and makes threats, and the other is restrained by both internal restraints and restraints put upon him by his community, there ultimately comes a breakage point. If you go to the police, and do not get a response, or the police tells you the neighbor has issues, sothat you MUST understand and endure it, your familymembers may have a problem, or two, and decide to take action themselves. The Israeli government was under increasing pressure from Israelis, especially those in Sderot that they protect them against the barrage of assault, and ultimately they did. We see how the Goldstone has emboldened Arabs, because the stoning episode going on now, is being orchestrated with the consent and aid from Arabs outside of Israel. Mahmoud Abbas, who officially does not even lead the PA any longer, but keeps hanging on by his fingernails, has set demands which must be met BEFORE negotiations. These actions are being taken, the stoning, just when there were to be negotiations with the personal aid of the President of the U.S. Arabs do not want negotiations, they want all of Jerusalem and all of Israel. I believe that nothing will change for Palestinians, be they in Gaza, in the PA territories, in Lebanon, in Syria, or even in Jordan, until after they have been allowed to be full participants of the fabric of those communities.
02:01 PM on 10/08/2009
mommamia - your post is way too convoluted - try being brief - shouldn't be a problem if you have a worthwhile point.