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Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Posted April 20, 2009 | 06:39 PM (EST)

Goldman Sachs Counts on Society's Implicit Stop-Loss Order


Goldman Sachs executives have decided to return the TARP money the company received, thinking they can be free and engage in their own risk-taking without involving taxpayers. Hence, they can pay themselves bonuses galore with their "private" money. Given the fungibility of funds and taxpayer support, this is a masquerade. So long as Goldman Sachs may need us again in the future, whatever bonus they are paying today is a bonus that may be covered by the taxpayer tomorrow. They need to vow to never accept taxpayer money and never take advantage of society's implicit stop-loss order if they want to continue paying themselves the way they did in the past. Otherwise, it should be made clear that every penny they pay their hotshots now is liable to be clawed back at the next round of bailouts.

 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jeffp26
01:26 PM on 04/21/2009
Goldman got $9 Billion from AIG, allegedly for mortgage-backed securities that were diminished in value.

But they get to keep the securities, and the money too. That's a scam I want to participate in.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
mosh
12:22 PM on 04/21/2009
Goldman is running the show because Obama appointed these ex-Goldman execs to key posts in his administration. This was Obama's choice, theoretically freely made. Why are we blaming Goldman when it is Obama that should be held accountable for policy decisions?

Before Jan 20, we could demonize bush and paulson and lionize Obama. If the recovery fails it will be because Obama followed the path of putting the foxes in charge of the hen house.

So, all you Obama supporters out there, please explain to me why Obama isn't squarely responsible for Goldman et al's greedy behavior? Why are we focusing on Goldman when it is Obama's policies we should be decrying?
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
kesmarn
01:15 PM on 04/21/2009
There's been a long standing rumor that Geithner worked for G-S but he never did.
02:19 PM on 04/21/2009
Henry Paulson joined Goldman Sachs in 1974, became partner in 1982, served as their Chairman & CEO. Confirmed as Treasury Secretary June 2006, and, I believe G W Bush was president.

If "blaming" is your point - a bit of research should be your aim, however, it seems you already have & have decided to twist whatever facts you've found.

Decry away... but your attempt to make a point about this article & Goldman - predates Obama. And we're suffering the consequences of a 2/TERM bad choice.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
mosh
06:07 PM on 04/21/2009
If you read my comment more closely, I never said Geithner or Summers were ex-goldman execs (although Summers might have been - and certainly would qualify as a wall street lobbyist considering all the money he made from wall street in 2008 just prior to his appointment to Obama's economic advisory panel). Bernanke sure is.

What I was trying to get across was the concept that Obama - and no one else - is responsible for the policies currently in place that seem to be benefiting the big banks in general and goldman in particular.

Summers was one of the masterminds of deregulation under Clinton - and Geithner failed in his job to effectively regulate anyone while head of the fed bank in NY. Aren't you concerned that he and Larry Summers are now Obama's chief strategists? And not to mention the goldman guy who is now CEO of AIG? Goldman is all over this so-called recovery effort and why? Because Obama chose to put them there.

I know we are suffering from 8 long years of Bush (and Clinton's corrupt deregulation tactics before that), but I fear we will be suffering from 4 more years of bad consequences due to Obama's poor choices, vis a vis Summers and Geithner. And as Obama likes to say - the buck stops here. Well, that was my point. Whatever happens now it is on Obama's watch.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
mosh
12:17 PM on 04/21/2009
Your analysis is perfectly logic but, so what? Goldman Sachs controls the treasury, that is clear, and the Congress for that matter. There will be no strings attached to future bailout money, we already know that. Obama will say the 'buck stops here' but that, too, is a lie. The buck stops with the taxpayer, for everybody else, Obama included, it's just one big shell game.

Our political system is controlled by lobbyists. Until that changes nothing will.

And here we thought Obama meant what he said about no lobbyists in his administration. He was beholden to no one but the small contributors who deluged him with millions throughout his campaign. Boy, were we duped.

But why be surprised, Obama is a politician after all.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
hollybork
11:33 AM on 04/21/2009
A pox on Goldman Sachs. I don't think the financial titans were paying attention to the lessons on corporate responsibility during their business school or legal training years, even though they made enough money to build new wings for their alma maters emblazoned with their names for all to marvel over.

Now we are told to provide a governmental stop loss on the damage done by these villains but not to worry that it will benefit them directly. How is that possible, exactly?

Will they care if their companies cause a depression? Most of the financial executives of this era would rather do what Chrysler has done - turn down TARP money to keep their salaries and bonuses overinflated, lead their companies into bankruptcy, shed hundreds of thousands of worker's jobs, destroy the retirement income of their bondholders, shred the hard earned savings of their shareholders.

Add savvy Goldman Sachs to the list of corporations that would rather lose shareholder's money than have to put limits on themselves and their beloved compensation packages. Such people are beyond contempt. They are the very definition of sociopathology at work in our dying capitalist culture.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sposton
right to tell what they don't want to hear
10:51 AM on 04/21/2009
They are now even larger than too-large-to-fail. The only long term systemic solution is cut all these too large financial enterprises to pieces of which not one is too large to fail. Anything short of this will come to haunt us in the future. In order for free enterprise to work there must be a real and credible threat of consequences of a failure to perform. Take this away and there is no free enterprise and no capitalism.

Give them a choice - either you cut yourself to pieces or "We the People" take you over. If one thinks there are other choices one hasn't learned much from the current crisis.
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FunGuy13
Oh what fresh hell is this?
10:51 AM on 04/21/2009
Yeah they want to give back the TARP funds which have a myriad of strings attached, of which compensation limits are a big one...however these banks are still taking in hundred of billions of FDIC guarantees that exposes the taxpayer (gov't) to very high risk in the event of defaults...basically banks are having their cake & eating too & also talking from both sides of their holes....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/16/AR2009041601275.html?wprss=rss_nation
10:04 AM on 04/21/2009
Goldman Sachs is a mafia that must be stopped.
09:52 AM on 04/21/2009
Any argument to the effect that "it's OK for these particular people to get compensation that doesn't match their productivity because when wall street booms, the economy booms" is dishonest. If there is a temporary bubble economy due to inflated faux economic activity to support the current pyramid it just has the effect of eating away further at our underlying strength. Such an argument is only self serving and the lie of it can be found in the mismatch between the value to society of what is being done and the reward given.

The system is rotten and is designed to support that very small special group of people who live in a different economic universe from the rest of us. The only thing special is the ability to maintain their own power.
09:51 AM on 04/21/2009
There is a revolving door between government appointments and goldman sachs executive office holders. This is why Lehman was allowed to fail while Goldman was injected with TARP money. Mostly these people graduate from the same business schools, which have similar coursework and thus develop the same kind of thinking and they often know each other. As a result of this mentality they have:
1)No problems in playing with other people's money .
2)Nobody is willing to challenge accepted wisdom(if we may call it that).
3)Extreme moral hazard due to the knowledge that if they make some returns in short term, a lot of that will go into their pocket, if they fail government will bail them out.

In a related topic what is the problem in nationalization of banks? I do not understand why this is so unpalatable. Why is transparency so unpalatable? In India, we have public sector banks and private banks and mostly the lending practices are much better (less predatory) ,capital reserves are much higher for these banks. Majority of our population (mostly office workers and blue collar workers) have deposits with them and even then, these banks did not have much risk appetite for SIVs and escaped the brunt of the crash.
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Lorianne
ama vitam
12:03 PM on 04/21/2009
Gee, you'd think people would be out in the streets protesting this kind of thing ...
09:13 AM on 04/21/2009
It goes much further than is stated in the article. There needs to be rationality brought to the banking sector of the economy so that it doesn't make sense to be "rewarding" traders with multi-million dollar annual bonuses. There has to be a much closer connection between money creation and real world productivity contribution.
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09:09 AM on 04/21/2009
the options of swearing off public funds should still not free them from the same regulatory constraints that recipients of such monies will be subject to. in other words, you dont have to take the money, but you will still play by the same new rules (if we ever see new rules).
08:57 AM on 04/21/2009
All the TARP money? Really? Does that include the AIG payouts that TARP funds covered? Or are they just disingenuously pretending they resolved their issues on their own? I say a recipient of AIG payouts backed by government funding is still participating in the plan.
02:19 PM on 04/21/2009
>All the TARP money? Really? Does that include the AIG payouts that TARP funds covered?

Excellent point.

"Financial companies that received multibillion-dollar payments owed by A.I.G. include Goldman Sachs ($12.9 billion)," - New York Times - 12-15-2009
07:06 AM on 04/21/2009
Mr. Taleeb, since you won't do it, let me do if for you: This is fraud and the government is complicit in it. The consequences of that will be grave.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
BigBagel
09:05 AM on 04/21/2009
Complicit? The corporations and the government are one.
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Lorianne
ama vitam
12:04 PM on 04/21/2009
Gee, you'd think people would be out in the streets protesting this sort of thing ...
01:35 AM on 04/21/2009
I agree it is irresponsible for Goldman Sachs, or any other company essential to the economy, to pay outsized salaries or bonuses. If they ever DO need a bailout, the taxpayer will be stuck with the bill. But I don't quite understand how that clawback is supposed to work. If they are on the brink of failure, and need public money to get over the hump, how do we deny them crucial funds, while ensuring that they survive? I have to assume that any bailout would be recovered once the company becomes viable again.

How does this clawback work? I for one think it CAN'T. Companies which society cannot afford to let fail must be heavily regulated by the government to prevent failure. Their executives must agree to settle for modest salaries, or otherwise personally guarantee the company's survival, at least to the total extent of their bonuses, i.e. agree to contribute that amount to any bailout, out of their personal funds.
03:25 AM on 04/21/2009
The necessity of their survival is a myth. I don't need Goldman Sachs. Never did. Not even in an indirect "Oh they probably structure finance for a company that your company relies on" manner. They generate nothing of net worth in the slightest. Paper pushers who act as gatekeepers to a slosh-pool of money. Exterminate them.
10:42 AM on 04/21/2009
I agree and they contribute nothing to my life except in the role they play lobbying my government in ways that are contrary to my livelihood and civil liberties.
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04:04 AM on 04/21/2009
Who needs Goldman Sachs? We need banks, and we may even need investment banks, but if one gang of crooks messes up, bust 'em up, let 'em go. The cemeteries, as DeGaulle pointed out, are full of indispensable men; the bankruptcy courts should be full of corporations that are "too big to fail."
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
TXfemmom
Grandma with eye on the future
01:00 AM on 04/21/2009
Goldman Sachs should have to pay back the money they received from AIG, as well, if they want to pay back the TARP money, and should have to sign a release saying that whatever happens, they can never, ever come back for help from the government. That would rattle their cages enough, since their stock price would plummet. No one is going to work with an institution involved in this disaster if they give back all that money and agree that they will be ineligible for assistance.

Also, tell them that investigations into the behavior of their execs and employees shall continue, even increase and speed up, since how could they be in such dire need of a bailout and then report record profits just months later? They were either lying then or lying now or both.
Viper
Former repub, still repenting
03:00 AM on 04/21/2009
Should the state and company pension funds payback the insurance proceeds they got from AIG or my insurance proceeds due to IKE damage that I had paid premiums on for years...?

How about the foreign governments and banks....

I dont like this any better than anyone. And U.S. execs are paid 15 times more than anywhere else in the world.

However pls note that besides that problem... individuals in these companies have clients they have often managed for years.. sometimes they are written into the contract personally. So these guys can leave and take business with them if they think they can make more that way.. no i dont like it... but its the way it works.

Thats a reason this companies fear loss of the retention bonus.. it can be very expensive... and can mean a loss of business such that we dont get paid back...

These businesses were born out of partnerships, going public in many cases only in recent years which accounts for their methods of compensation that need to be changed.

Regards
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
TXfemmom
Grandma with eye on the future
11:15 AM on 04/21/2009
The United States government should do everything within their power to claw back every red cent that AIG paid to the foreign Banks. Their countries should have saved those banks, they were sophisticated institutions who knowingly and willingly took on the derivatives and other instruments and no one twisted their arms.
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04:02 PM on 04/21/2009
Viper--

That is bogus. Yes, clients were often the result of personal relationships. But clients now need money. They will go where the money is, irrespective of personal relationships. The clients need the banks as much as the banks need the client.

And by the way, no investment banker is named into a contract with a client. Ever.
07:35 AM on 04/21/2009
I agree with you 100%. If anyone of the financial institutions that appear to be gaming the system it is Goldman Sachs (the other's are not without blame either). Their entire behavior is seedy at best. Further, there should be a moratorium of 100 years - meaning forever - of ever hiring one of their former execs into government, that revolving door must stop. It was absurd to higher Neil Kaskari to manage the TARP whose Wall Street experience was just 8 years. I know no other industry where people routinely hide behind that "their smart" versus a proven track record to get such important jobs. They had to have been hundreds if not thousands of more qualified people for Paulson to higher to manage the TARP but he chose man who neither the experience, background nor proven track record to manage the TARP just because he was a Goldman Sach's executive.