Last Night's Clinton / Obama Lovefest: Who Needs Whom More?

Posted February 1, 2008 | 03:56 AM (EST)



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Let me start by saying that it's bizarre being in the press room for a debate. No doubt many (though perhaps not all) of the reporters, columnists, and bloggers in the press room have a horse in the presidential race whom, somewhere beneath that veneer of objectivity, they're personally pulling for. And, I'm sure that a few in the room last night--because it's the liberal media, right?--were rooting for Senator Clinton or Senator Obama. Surrounded by a mostly stoic press corps, however, you wouldn't have known it, save for a few cracked smiles among the unwashed masses (read unaffiliated bloggers whom no one expects to be neutral).

A few days ago, I wrote about which of the Democratic candidates is best suited, in terms of the demographics they attract, to lead the party into November and into the generation beyond. Retroactive spoiler alert: I chose Obama. (Clinton supporters, feel free to recoil in horror and vent in the comments section.) Here's the thing, though; watching the debates tonight, I know that both candidates would do an admirable and highly competent job as Commander In Chief. But I stand by my earlier assessment that because Senator Obama has drawn new voters into his tent that he is best positioned to compete against the Republican nominee, particularly if he is Senator McCain.

All this makes the final question of the debate from Wolf "That was a Swipe!" Blitzer an interesting, but complicated, one. Last night we saw a kinder, gentler debate, which logically gives rise to the question of a "dream ticket" (query whether Blitzer would have asked it had we seen a replay of the South Carolina slugfest). And even if the race regains some of its acrimony, the possibility of a "dream ticket" will remain a distinct possibility; even John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson were able to set aside their war of words and unite at the 1960 convention.

So with that in mind, let's look at some of the mental and practical barriers to Obama/Clinton (ok, relax, or Clinton/Obama) unity.

First, there's ego. Senator Clinton was the frontrunner from the get-go and ran her campaign as one of inevitability (that is, until it wasn't so inevitable anymore). A second place finish and her name below Obama's on bumper stickers all across America would not be her idea of a successful campaign. This is not to say that her longtime frontrunner status entitles her to the top of the ticket. That's for the voters to decide. But, the idea that a relative newcomer could displace her and that she would accept the vice presidency seems somewhat far-fetched. After all, the 1990s were, at least according to her campaign rhetoric, a de facto vice presidency. Would she be willing to swallow her pride and become Obama's running mate?

Conversely, there's the looming issue that whoever would play second fiddle in a Clinton campaign might in fact be relegated to third fiddle by an overeager and overbearing Mr. Clinton. Would Obama want to trade his position as an extraordinarily popular Senator for a spot beneath Mrs. and Mr. Clinton? Or is that a position best suited for a party loyalist (no, I didn't say milquetoast) who would jump at the chance to be in the national spotlight? For Obama, would eight years be too long to wait, and is the vice presidency still the springboard to the big dance that it once was? I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that negotiation: "So, Hillary, I'm concerned about Bill...."

Whatever the merits or possibility of a united Democratic ticket, one conclusion seems inescapable: Clinton needs Obama more than Obama needs Clinton. Should she become the nominee, Clinton will need Obama and his fervent supporters in November. Not only does Obama appeal to liberal Democrats, but he has proved uncanny in his ability to mobilize anti-war moderate voters, those who have never before participated in the political process, and those attracted to the progressive post-partisan agenda that Obama champions. Indeed, Obama has attracted a passionate grassroots and volunteer force (you need look no further than the huge amount of donors giving to the campaign in small increments) that recalls Howard Dean's, but one that actually converted that broad-based and cross-over support into an Iowa victory.

In the spin room last night, I made my way to the nucleus of the press circle surrounding Clinton adviser Mark Penn and I asked him if, given Obama's ability to increase the size of the electoral pie for the Democrats, Clinton needs Obama more than he needs her. Penn responded (based on my best shorthand notes without a recorder), "Either nominee will generate new votes. In Florida there was a record turnout for Senator Clinton. So you're seeing her attract a tremendous amount of supporters as well." While Clinton took the Florida vote by a decisive margin, that total requires an asterisk given the candidates (mostly) honored pledge not to campaign in the Sunshine State. And, when comparing the Democratic winner's votes in South Carolina and Florida as a percentage of the total Republican turnout, Obama's South Carolina votes represented 67% of the South Carolina GOP total compared to Clinton's Florida votes making up 45% of the Florida GOP total. Moreover, the combined Florida votes for McCain and Romney (1,291,696) easily best Clinton's Florida total (857,208), whereas Obama's South Carolina haul (295,091) tops McCain and Huckabee's combined take (279,723).

While Penn did his best to play up the Florida non-contest, Obama's comparative drawing power is undeniable. And regardless of how you crunch the numbers, if nominated, Clinton will need Obama's passionate grassroots organization to augment her own. This recalls the argument that Obama attracts many voters who would otherwise not vote for Clinton (or vote at all), whereas the Clinton voters I know are excited by Obama, and would have less difficulty transferring their passion for her to him.

The glow from the last Democratic love fest in Las Vegas quickly gave way to rancorous campaigning in South Carolina. Whether the goodwill and party unity on display in Hollywood can last will depend in large part on how Senator Clinton balances her desire to win with the necessity to eventually convert Barack's voters--many of whom are not traditional Democratic voters and would not support a ticket whose bumper stickers do not include the name Obama, be it in first (or second) position.

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- mclarke15 See Profile I'm a Fan of mclarke15 permalink

Our ticket is Clinton and Obama.

It's the only Democratic ticket that beats the Republicans. It mobilizes women and minorities - it mobilizes the establishment and the next generation.

It comes down to how much we want to win:

Obama humanizes Hilary.

Hilary brings the global experience that Obama doesn't have (yet).

... and to the Obama fans: with eight years as Vice President, Obama gains global expertise by the fistful... and slides into the Presidency just as George Bush inherited it from Ronald Reagan.

Let's start thinking like the Republicans. It's right in front of our noses.

Skip the primary - let's get on with the election.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:48 AM on 02/02/2008
- MRb1000 See Profile I'm a Fan of MRb1000 permalink

Hillary needs Barack more than Barack needs Hillary. I think the better ticket is Barack Obama and John Edwards!! This would be a very strong ticket. Hillary and Bill Clinton have to much baggage and Hillary has to high negatives.

Truth hurts.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:33 AM on 02/02/2008
- democraticjack See Profile I'm a Fan of democraticjack permalink

I believe a Clinton/Obama ticket would almost certainly guarantee a Democrat in the White House for the next 16 years. That's my dream, along with John Edwards being a Supreme Court judge and Wes Clark at Defense or Homeland Security. Bill Clinton might make an excellent Secy. of State, on so many levels.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:53 PM on 02/01/2008
- vsign See Profile I'm a Fan of vsign permalink

Barack - You are not superior to Hillary. I heard you say, "I will get the people who voted for her. Now the question is, could she get the people who voted for me?" I'm smart enough to realize your "new democratic coalition" of voters does not include me. I will vote for Hillary because she will represent me. She is better on health care, immigration, energy and national security policies.

She offers a bridge - You want to tear it down!

Barack - You do not have better judgement on national security. The whole country believed as Hillary except for the pacifists. Hillary was right. The persons to hold accountable are Bush and Cheney. Shame on you for blaming Hillary. For you to claim superiority on national security issues fails. It will not be proven the right strategy against the republicans.

Barack - You are attractive to me when you display courtesy to Hillary. Your speeches or sermons do not. Your Obama girl does not. Beat up on Bush and Cheney.

Barack - You are clever but Hillary is smart. We need smart right now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:37 PM on 02/01/2008
- BUSHsurvivor See Profile I'm a Fan of BUSHsurvivor permalink

Your tale of the "republican votes" in SC is kind of spinning it. Doesn't SC have an open primary....where as long as your registered, you can vote for either party. Come general election time, you have no clue whether those same voters will show up and vote democrat.

Also, I must say that this whole primary season so far has basically been guided by so called objective journalists. Inevitibility was a media story. Trying desperately to instigate fights in the debates, by posting non-issue questions, is what the media lives for. Last nights debate spoke on issues, but was basically calm - the media reported today and will drop it tomorrow. They want more - things that will sell newspapers, have people tune in to broadcasts, etc.

So, I guess my point is...it becomes difficult for new voters to actually see and hear what positions the candidates stand for - what with all of the party infighting guided by the media.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:55 PM on 02/01/2008
- JDKJJK See Profile I'm a Fan of JDKJJK permalink

I missed last night's debate. John Edwards was the only candidate that was proposing a new direction for the country and both Hillary and Obama jumped on the Edwards bandwagon. The fact that they started taking their talking points from a candidate that was never a serious threat demonstrates their lack of originality and their insecurity.
I am hoping for a Hillary victory come next November because I expect the economy to continue its downward spiral. Since the Clinton's are partially responsible for the state of the present economy through their continuation of Republican policies it is only fitting that she inherit the mess she helped to create.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:42 PM on 02/01/2008
- LAJonathan See Profile I'm a Fan of LAJonathan permalink

Its obvious to me that Barack does not support Hillary's tactics. She has stolen each of his ideas and used them for herself. Since when was anyone discussing change, teamwork, unity and good will before Barack Obama? NO ONE. Everyone copied him, the true sign of the real leader. She changes like the wind like a true politician and he would NEVER, EVER have her as his VP. NEVER! She even changed her voice and is all Koom by ya now? I DON'T BUY IT AT ALL. WAKE UP.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:12 PM on 02/01/2008
- Ides See Profile I'm a Fan of Ides permalink

Obama has no interest in the second spot to the Clintons. He almost spit at the very thought of it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:56 PM on 02/01/2008
- radionewsboy See Profile I'm a Fan of radionewsboy permalink

This 'dream ticket' ain't gonna happen.

For starters, I'm still convinced Obama would be a disaster nominee - last night's debate reminded me yet again that Obama's strength is giving a great speech about 'inspiration', 'making America great again' etc etc but when it comes to controversy he gets flustered. In a bitch-fest, Clinton would kill him. And that's what the general election will be - the Republicsans will crucify poor lil' Obama on national televsion. In the primary season he gets to play self-righteous and inspiration and Clinton can't tear him apart or be called an evil, self-serving shrew. You think the Republicans won't bring up the drugs, the "slum lord" ties, the "present" votes and his anti-war rhetoric/pro-war voting?

Pick Obama as the nominee and it'll be a shit-show.

Futhermore, the Obama supporters need to calm the f#ck down...calling Clinton a war-mongering, hate filled bitch who they'd never vote for. Well, kiddies, if Clinton is the nominee and y'all vote Republicans than you're dumber than I think.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:41 PM on 02/01/2008
- vsign See Profile I'm a Fan of vsign permalink

If Hillary is on top and Barack is on the bottom - it is very attractive to me. They look good together. If Barack is on top, I'll sit this election out. Barack has painted himself clean by painting Hillary as dirty. As a woman - this sounds too familiar to me. I don't like the way Barack has conducted his campaign against the Clintons. For example: "Young people unite and do away with the old people! Tear down the bridge to the past and follow me! I will deliver the power to you, you so deserve." Who said this? Isn't that what Barack is saying?

I used to think that I could not trust anyone over 30, because they must have sold out. Now I don't trust anyone under 30 to vote, because they must have sold out. Sold out? - sold out their ability to think and giving in to the media messages they carry around in their pockets like little red books.

Hillary is ready and prepared to make decisions on day one. I like her having President Clinton to consult intimately with. I like the stability of Hillary at the top of the ticket.

If Barack could be disciplined enough to prove himself over the next 8 years of a Hillary presidency, I would see him as more attractive.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:35 PM on 02/01/2008
- vsign See Profile I'm a Fan of vsign permalink

This could be the most exciting election in a long time. But I'm really worried, not excited, about the possible outcome. I used to think that I could not trust anyone over 30, because they must have sold out. Now I don't trust anyone under 30 to vote, because they must have sold out. Sold out? - sold out their ability to think and giving in to the media messages they carry around in their pockets like little red books.

This election is like no other - it is exposing the great generational divide. I dare say it might be greater than the racial or sexual divides.

Obama's message, for me, is not to hate the actions of our current leaders, Bush and the republicans, and win with the democratic party - but to hate the Clintons. Young people unite and do away with the old people!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:25 PM on 02/01/2008
- HighBeam See Profile I'm a Fan of HighBeam permalink

This is one of those who will win the World Series next year debates. I will say neither needs either and neither picks either. Both candidates have enormous egos and neither will except if the other offers. Whom ever wins the nomination will look at the numbers, come up with a plan, and pick someone that will help them win the most states.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:18 PM on 02/01/2008
- ndolomar See Profile I'm a Fan of ndolomar permalink

HELLO -- PEOPLE!!! (didn't want to resort to all caps, but it seems some people just aren't ready to look at the truth through unfiltered eyes and belief)

H. CLINTON HAS ONLY BEEN IN PUBLICLY ELECTED OFFICE SINCE 2001. THUS, FEWER THAN 8 YEARS!! BEFORE THAT, SHE WAS A WIFE AND AN AMBASSADOR, AND A LAWYER. OH, YEAH, AND A STUDENT WHO CAMPAIGNED AS A REPUBLICAN GOLDWATER GIRL IN THE LATE '60S.

B. OBAMA HAS BEEN IN PUBLICLY ELECTED OFFICE SINCE THE MID-'90S, WHICH BY MOST MATHEMATICAL STANDARDS, WOULD BE VIEWED AS A LONGER PERIOD IN GOVERNMENT. THUS, LONGER THAN 8 YEARS (or, to use the vernacular: MORE EXPERIENCE).

so, for all those who claim he's not "experienced" enough or is "untested" and needs "more time" under his belt -- what will you be saying if clinton is up against mccain? will "experience" matter as much then? geez, louise!

sorry for the all caps, but i'm tired of people trotting out a talking point without thinking ahead...or thinking at all, it seems.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:16 PM on 02/01/2008
- SILLYME See Profile I'm a Fan of SILLYME permalink

Senator Obama if he chooses Senator Clinton as his running mate would lose the race for President. McCain/Bloomberg ticket seems the most obvious for the opposition and with Clinton's baggage would doom the ticket. I would suggest Governor Richardson or Senator Edwards as a running mate for Obama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:38 PM on 02/01/2008
- EngineerBill See Profile I'm a Fan of EngineerBill permalink

I am begging here. Please please please!!!! Spare us from another so called "dream ticket"!!! Kerry-Edwards was a "dream ticket" remember? The Clinton-Obama or even Obama-Clinton in '08 would be the Kerry-Edwards ticket of '04. Clinton's negative baggage is too heavy to defeat McCain period. please believe me. Otherwise will all be here come november grousing about diebold machines, voters denied access at the polls and grumbling about the US of Canada vs. Jesusland. Please not again!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:36 PM on 02/01/2008
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