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Republican Lies About Canada's Superior Health Care
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-francis/republican-lies-about-can_b_201521.html
Julia, your link backfired - there is a list of lies, but is is NOT a list of "Republican Lies" .. here are two of them:
5. Infant mortality is much lower in Canada and Europe than in the U.S.
7. Longevity is better in Canada and Europe than in the U.S
The U.S. mortality rate and logevity rate includes non-citizens and first generation immigrants (who really represent the outcome of customs and conditions in their home country). When controlled for demographics, the U.S. comes out ahead. For example, Americans of Swedish descent suffer a lower infant mortality rate than do Swedes. Same is true of Americans of Canadian descent. To compare "Europe" overall with the U.S. one would need to include Turkey and Russia. In which case infant mortality is about twice as high in Europe as it is in the U.S.A.
Robert
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Canada has a larger immigrant population as a percentage of total population.
So, maybe if you remove immigrants from the US numbers and not from Canada's numbers... or create an apples to oranges comparison... then you are right.
Basically you are saying "Yeah, but if you take the dead people out of our mortality numbers, we do better!"
Bogus.
Do you know how many immigrants there are in France? A lot. They still seem to be doing way better than we do.
All other industrial countries have national health plans. The countries that have these plans spend a lot less on health care than the US (although the UK may be a exception, don't know that for a fact). They have better health outcome statistics than the US and their citizens seem generally satisfied with their national system. Their doctors seem generally satisfied with the system.
What nay sayers have never been able to explain is what horrible event will happen if we have a national health care system like other countries? What specifically are you afraid of.
For me it is mainly the necessary trade-off of freedom for it to have even a chance to work. Already, for example, Congress is talking of making it a law that citizens of the US will be REQUIRED to obtain health insurance. Even if the system worked like a charm, and we did all materially gain from the government control, I would still be against it. Material benefit .. or even health or security .. should not trump freedom as a value. If I'm not allowed to get off the grid, then I have lost a basic human right. Simply being forced to pay for others care also entails loss of freedom. The Christian Scientist loses freedom of belief if she is forced to pay for blood transfusions.
And don't get me started on pro-lifers. They will be legitimized overnight. Right now our main argument against them is that the healthcare is a private matter and that they should mind their own business. With public care it will suddenly BECOME their business, and quite legitimately. Anything run by a democratic government is subject to the full force of public and political opinion and compromise. Succesful public healthcare has been in those countries where the populations are quite homongenous and there is relatively little disagreement on most major issues. Think Sweden and Japan (or, um, Canada).
Robert
If you want to comment on this thought, Janet, do it quickly, or 'JULIA' will reply for you!
"Simply being forced to pay for others care also entails loss of freedom."
In any society people pay for services they don't use because some other person pays for services they do use. Think about, K-12 school, levees, universities, food stamps, libraries, soil conservation, bridges, police protection, fire protection, rural electrification, dams, irrigation channels, airports, harbors, roads, storm clean-up, farm and industry subsidy, the armed services. You pay taxes for all these services whether you use them or not. Why should the health of the nation be of concern to all of us.
Living off the grid is always possible. Some do it by choice some have no choice.
"Even if the system worked like a charm, and we did all materially gain from the government control, I would still be against it."
That seems inordinately selfish. I don't think a very dynamic, or healthy society is based on that kind of selfishness when basic services are concerned.
BTW Canada has a mind bendingly divers population, from the Innuit in the Arctic to the French in Quebec from the Scots in Nova Scotia to the Tlingit in the west and all the Asians, Indians, Jamaicans , etc in between. They even have 3 official languages.
"Simply being forced to pay for others care also entails loss of freedom."
Wrapping yourself in the tired old Great-Tradition-of-Self-Reliance schtick, are you? Won't work this time. Growing up and becoming a responsible, reasonably moral adult also entails a loss of freedom. What we have right now is rationed medical care, access to which is doled out by greedy middlemen - the ones who insist on their "freedom" to profit. And you are here to speak in favor of greed, rationed care, denial of care, and the freedom to stiff your fellow citizens:
_________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill
* A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services or a political group, who pretends to have no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer. The intention of the shill is, using crowd psychology, to encourage others unaware of the set-up to purchase said goods or services or support
the political group's ideological claims. Shills are often employed by confidence artists. The term plant is also used. .
Shilling is illegal in many circumstances and in many jurisdictions because of the frequently fraudulent and damaging character of their actions. ...
"Shill" can also be ... an apologist for glaring flaws. In this sense, they would be an implicit "shill" for the industry at large, possibly because their income is tied to its prosperity."
___________
The semi private did NOT cost $21. That the old man paid $57 for a month of health care is meaningless. Here in Texas I do not pay one cent out of pocket for a month of health care and my wife did not pay a penny for a fully private room in Austin when she gave birth. Does that mean healthcare in Texas is "free"? Unfortunately the insurance system hides the true costs but the Canadian systems hides them so much that the citizens believe they aren't paying anything for it. Indeed the Canadian system, along with the public systems of many other countries DEPENDS on the semi-private healthcare system in the U.S. for its cheap drugs and new technologies. As with the VCR and the first Blue Ray DVD players and the first personal computers, if there aren't wealthier people wiling to try out the technology by paying real money for it, new technologies will never develop and come down in price enough for governments and big insurance companies to purchase and provide them to the masses. Keep in mind, if the US had implemented public healthcare in 1890, then today we would all be benefiting from an equal and fair and inexpensive access to 1890 quality healthcare.
"the Canadian system, along with the public systems of many other countries DEPENDS on the semi-private healthcare system in the U.S. for its cheap drugs and new technologies"
.
" if the US had implemented public healthcare in 1890, then today we would all be benefiting from an equal and fair and inexpensive access to 1890 quality healthcare."
This is just silliness. You can't really believe this kind of nonsense.
The government does not invent things . and does not create wealth. It only has the power to move around the inventions of others. The postal system basically did not evolve for a hundred years .. other than loading parcels on cars and planes rather than horses when others invented those things. The explosion in superchared delivery systems occured when the postal service was opened up just a crack to the private sector. The post office did not have overnight delivery until a private company developed a system that handled the logistics. I have worked a bit in the private sector but most of my career has been in the public arena. I can tell you firsthand that the driving motivation in the public sector is to not make a mistake and not get fired. In the private sector, the opposite dynamic is true .. if the business does not continually take risks (such as investing in new products that could fizzle .. or get disapproved by the FDA), it eventually dies.
Once again,
We covered R+D about 10 and 20 pages ago and debunked the lies surrounding it. The EXACT same lies as you are spewing here. Please keep up.
However, I will give America credit for clusterf__ks like this:
Pfizer Reaches Settlement In Nigerian Drug-Trial Case
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/03/AR2009040301877.html?hpid=moreheadlines
"In 2007, Nigeria's federal government and the state of Kano filed four civil and criminal actions against Pfizer and 10 individuals, including former Pfizer chief executive William C. Steere Jr. The actions sought $9 billion in restitution and damages, and included 31 criminal counts, including homicide."
Unless you got something new for us, don't come back until you've gotten informed. Thank you.
Norman Bethune, a Canadian doctor, held numerous patents for medical devices which he donated for the good of humanity.
He wasn't interested in getting rich, just in healing.
Seems the US could use some more medical innovation like that!
Which big pharmaceutical or HMO do you work for? They always hire people like you to attack the Canadian system whenever healthcare reform is mentioned.
My goodness you must think Canadians are completely stupid if you think we think our health care is "free". It is only free to those who have never paid into it nor paid taxes when they buy a chocolate bar or a package of gum or a sweater or a meal. Have you ever been to any major Canadian city - have you ever talked to a Canadian? Who told you we are so stupid? We might say we don't have to pay for a doctor or hospital visit but that doesn't mean we think it is free in the sense you state it!
I'm another American who moved to Canada--and one of my reasons was the health care program.
I'm also angry at the American system for endangering my life & the lives of fellow Canadians! If you want to endanger your own; that's your business, but illness doesn't recognize national boundaries. If I'm sick, I see a doctor (&, no, I don't have long waits for routine visits & can see a doctor immediately if I think something's wrong). I can be diagnosed & treated quickly. In the NYT, I recently read that young Americans who have lost their jobs, &, with it, their health insurance, do things like take their friends' left-over, outdated antibiotics (which may be the wrong antibiotic for their cases) because they can't afford to see a doctor. This is a perfect recipe for the development of drug-resistant bacteria. The US's present system creates a public health disaster waiting to happen, and the result could easily be a world-wide pandemic that would make swine flu look like nothing. The US should take responsibility for it's own illnesses instead of foisting disease on the rest of us. Get a single-payer plan!
If your Canadian health care plan is so good, then why do many Canadians come to the U.S. to have procedures done that they cannot get done in Canada????
THIS IS A LIE.
its not really a lie Julia. Our doctors send Canadians to the states for certain procedures if the doctor feels the states may offer a program we don't have - I know of someone who was sent there for a drug program [paid for by the Canadian Government] and I know of a friend who couldn't get to a MRI machine as fast as he wanted to [his wife had sprained her knee] so he drove across the border, put up his bucks and got it faster altho it made not a bit of difference in her treatment. That is fine if you have the bucks - I would do it too. Our system is not perfect.
If I go to my doctor and tell her I would like some unnecessay cosmetic surgery done she will probably suggest a clinic which will charge me for it - or I could go to New York - or India or or.....
The point is people in Emergency who are urgently ill get cared for before people who can wait. It is the small price we pay for doing unto others as we would have them do unto us. The $ is NOT king in our system as it is in the American system. I would have a hard time trusting an American doctor because the $ is king - he makes his money from my hide! So does the Canadian doctor but it is much less direct - I think there is
The answer is: they don't. Note carefully where you hear that Canadians come to the us for procedures. It's a myth propagated and endlessly repeated by corporate funded right wing talk radio and Fox News. My state shares a long border with Canada. You often see Canadian plates in the parking lot of our malls. We never see Canadian plates at our hospitals.
"Corporate funded right wing talk radio" .. what does that even mean? Huffington Post is a corporation. Radio stations ARE corporations. Do you even know what a "corporation" is? Unlike a private company, a "corporation" has given up its rights to make its own decisions or to make its decisions in secret. Everyone who buys a piece of stock in a corporation has a voting voice in its decisions, not true regarding private companies. There is no legal way for you to find out the salary of a private company ... but the salary of every executive of a corporation is public record. If you are against corporations that means you for more power to larege and private interests.
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